Great Moments In Customer Service Pt. XCI: Bioware Hates You

The original post, from the Dragon Age 2 forums:

Do we know if DA2 will have a better range of racial diversity? I was dissapointed that Dragon Age, a game that seem to use elves as an allegory for black slavery and the treatment of native Americans lacks any black or asian people. That and it’s a fictional fantasy world that’s not based on anywhere specific so it just seems thoughtless to the point of discriminaton to not include other ethnicities. Not to mention that the character creator doesn’t really let you make a black or asian character with its messed up colour settings.

Will this be changed for DA2?

This is what we like to call a ‘community challenge’. Here is a player who raises some points, albeit in an aggressive, chip-on-the-shoulder way. What you should do is see these points:

1) The player feels disenfranchised because they can’t create a player avatar that fits their self-image.

2) The player sees echoes of RL racial/ethnic issues echoed in previous installments of the game, and would like to continue seeing that addressed.

Both of these could be addressed elegantly by one calling the other – highlighting the game series’ social consciousness and willingness to ask the player to think about racial issues in a different light, and contrasting that with how the game will, in fact, allow you to create world-appropriate/period-appropriate ethnic variations while explaning that in Talanthassala or wherever the game is set, there are no Asians, say, within the framework of the story thus limiting the choices available within customization to keep the strength of the world and the narrative – which, as mentioned, uses a coherent world view as a setting, in the best science fiction/fantasy tradition, to echo those questions of racial/ethnic conflict.

Or, you know, you could just conflate Jews and Yu-Gi-Oh players. Whatever works for you.

It can also be an allegory for the Jews, North-American Japanese during WWII, the poor, the Romani, Yu-Gi-Oh players or any other peoples segregated and ghettoized for reasons other than race.

(Note to presumably-Asian Stanley Woo – the Japanese internment in World War 2 was in fact for reasons of race. You know, if you really wanted to go there for that example. By the way, you really didn’t want to go there.)

You should probably play the game to find out. i have not yet met anyone who disliked a game because of “lack of racial diversity.” Most folks will concentrate on story and gameplay, but what do I know? That’s just my opinion.

Aside from the fact that players do in fact derive value from role-playing avatars that suit their idealized self-image, which in fact may not be white, anglo-saxon Protestants:

No.

It’s not “just your opinion”.

You have a cool tag by your name that says “Bioware”. On a forum run by a company called “Bioware”.

When you post things, it’s not just your opinion. It’s the official position of your company.

So, congratulations. You just told a potential customer that their concerns about a future product being relevant to their needs is less important than your need to score Intarweb points in a ham-fisted attempt to make light of racial sensitivity. But what do I know… that’s just my opinion.

EDIT:
* Hi, Bioware forum posters! Welcome to this blog. I know you won’t actually read anything else on it, but I thought I’d just use this opportunity to say hi anyway. Hi.
* I didn’t link to the full forum thread because I am, in fact, a horrible person.
* Giving someone the ability to make dark skin hues in a character generator is not the same as including the ability to create members of different ethnic groups.
* I promise I didn’t read David Gaider’s followup post…

Yet I think it’s fair to say that we could have included a broader spectrum of visible ethnicities in our world, if we wished to. I have to agree with Stan that this isn’t necessarily a worthy goal for its own sake. It might be interesting, sure, but it could also be pretty banal– if I were to include that in a setting, I certainly hope it’d be more than just tokenism. I don’t think anyone wants that.

There’s a little too much privilege involved to say this shouldn’t be a problem for someone (not that you’re saying this, Alex, just a comment on some posts I’m seeing). Obviously everyone wants to see themselves reflected in a world they’re enjoying, at some level, and I can see how someone might perceive a lack as feeling excluded. Ultimately we’re going to tell the stories that we think we have something to say about, and if they work as allegories to issues in the real world I think that’s possibly a bit better than having everything stake out a claim in our fantasy (also as Stan said). Racially speaking there are multiple human races represented in Thedas and you’ll see them depending on where you go– Kirkwall is in a different part of the world than Ferelden, so you should see that reflected in DA2.

In the end it’ll be up to you to tell us how well we did. With any luck the effort we made to have your family represent your appearance choices will show we’re at least listening.

…before writing my own “what they *should* have said” (which is pretty much the same thing but with 300% more pseudointellectual claptrap), so any similarities are wholly coincidental.

  • http://Website Guy

    Wow. No better than some random unpaid forum moderator on a power trip.

  • http://Website v

    Stanley Woo is consistently stupid on the BioWare forums, both with his posts and his bizarre moderating decisions.

    But that’s par for the course for BioWare forums; Chris Priestly isn’t any better, an all their volunteer mods are either raging fanbois or emo powertrippers. (For an example of the latter, see Pacifien’s profile as she goes through phases of threatening to ragequit.)

  • http://Website Centuri

    How appropriate, the add that shows up on Google reader is for an interacial dating site!

  • http://Website yunk

    I thought I created a black character in DA:O. In fact it was one of the default choices (the male with braided hair). Maybe the skin tones weren’t dark enough?

    But the point is still valid. I notice other Bioware reps joined in, and they also deleted every post by anyone else except the original post. Seriously they need a policy to govern their reps, which is pretty ridiculous, the reps should be exemplars of the policy.

    Plenty of people notice the paucity of black leading men, that doesn’t mean african americans don’t like tv. Thankfully that’s been changing lately, and more tv shows are featuring black men in leading roles.

    Finally, it is pretty stupid that this attitude still persists. People didn’t believe in BET, and it’s a huge moneymaking channel. Black americans are a huge part of the entertainment audience and certainly have money to set trends in not only music but games and movies. To think that they are not a market worth considering is foolishly limiting yourself to only a portion of your potential customers, to mock them for wanting more written for them is outright stupid and asking to lose money.

  • http://Website v

    @yunk: BioWare has a feature on their forums that lets you filter for BioWare employee posts, and that’s the link that Broken Toys posted. They actually didn’t delete many posts–the full thread is here: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/5626673/1

  • http://Website Weeeeeeeeeeeee

    I was banned because of that very thread, or I assume that I was. One moment I posted something about how people were getting uptight about a silly little question of inclusion and the next thing I know I’m not allowed to view the forums. Fricken fantastic moderation right there.

  • http://Website Tremayne

    Somehow, when I read this I pictured Sanya Weathers doing the mother of all facepalms…

  • http://Website Bryy

    This is a completely laughable article. I assume it was written for the sole purpose of riling people up.

  • Ejoslin

    Origins and also its sequel allows dark-skinned characters. Dragon Age 2 is said to have a family, whose appearance is connected to how the player designed his or her character.

    And way to go taking things out of context.

  • http://Website prezidente1

    Agreed. That was not good PR.

  • http://Website v

    Stanley Woo just thought “we were having a grand discussion.” http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/5626673/4#5628474

  • http://Website dartwick


    yunk:

    I thought I created a black character in DA:O. In fact it was one of the default choices (the male with braided hair). Maybe the skin tones weren’t dark enough?
    But the point is still valid. I notice other Bioware reps joined in, and they also deleted every post by anyone else except the original post. Seriously they need a policy to govern their reps, which is pretty ridiculous, the reps should be exemplars of the policy.
    Plenty of people notice the paucity of black leading men, that doesn’t mean african americans don’t like tv. Thankfully that’s been changing lately, and more tv shows are featuring black men in leading roles.
    Finally, it is pretty stupid that this attitude still persists. People didn’t believe in BET, and it’s a huge moneymaking channel. Black americans are a huge part of the entertainment audience and certainly have money to set trends in not only music but games and movies. To think that they are not a market worth considering is foolishly limiting yourself to only a portion of your potential customers, to mock them for wanting more written for them is outright stupid and asking to lose money.

    Just because BET makes bundles of money dont make it right not does it make it less racist.

  • http://Website sinij

    The only reason for official forums to exist is to sell more product. If you want to flame some retard, do so anonymously, then use your official account to respond to the same thread in a neutral way to bring attention to it, giving you both satisfaction of flaming and plausible deniability.

  • http://psychochild.org/ Brian ‘Psychochild’ Green


    Centuri:

    How appropriate, the add that shows up on Google reader is for an interacial dating site!

    Heh, yeah, I got that, too. Thanks for adding a new ad to the rotation, Scott!

  • http://Website sinij


    Bryy:

    This is a completely laughable article. I assume it was written for the sole purpose of riling people up.

    Yes, original post was fairly canned trolling, I am surprised moderators were inexperienced enough to take a bait.

    As a moderator you *never* discuss race, sexual orientation, ethnicity or politics because no matter what you say, you will piss somebody off costing you sales.

  • http://Website Bryy

    In response to the edits: cry more.

  • http://Website Bryy

    To clarify that statement: why get ragey at people for actually RESPONDING to your blog?

  • Scott Jennings

    You mistake bemusement for rage.

  • http://Website Tez

    i wish a painful cancer upon the writer of this blog. I would love to rape his/her mother.

  • http://Website Bryy

    Tez, really?

  • http://Website JuJutsu

    I’ve not seen such venom since the invasion of the Darkfall fanbois…did they switch to DA2?

  • http://Website sinij

    Venom? Seems like both Bioware and its fanbois are amateurs.

  • http://geldonsgaming.blogspot.com/ geldonyetich

    Meh. Consider me in the boat that thinks we go a little too far to be politically correct in this society.

    I’m not saying that of us who are racist pricks are anything less than dangerous throwbacks.

    I am saying that getting your panties in a twist because, looked at in a certain light, this condones racism, is annoying.

    For example, lets say we have a fantasy world which has greatly reduced ethnicity, and decide to spin from this the suggestion that because these circles are not being represented, we must be rolling all the racial tension onto the elves.

    Which is pants-on-head-retarded because, as far as a world of fantasy and make believe is concerned, these missing ethnicity may well never have existed and, if they did, it could very well be that they’re the ones dealing out racism, not receiving it.

  • http://geldonsgaming.blogspot.com/ geldonyetich

    In fact, if I were feeling like losing my job (which is never a problem for me because I’m always pathetically unemployed freelancing, perhaps for reason which are about to become evident) I would have written a lovely post that explained that, from the lore of Dragon Age, it turns out all the people of black and yellow skin were horrible tyrants that ruled the planet with an iron fist, right up until whitey rose up in a heroic rebellion and slew them to the last man.

    Why? Because that’d really screw with the comping-at-the-bit Political Correctness crusader fan’s heads. Do you cheer for heroic but oppressed white smacking down the black/yellow tyrants? Do you become appalled that black/yellow tyrant was overthrown in their cruel subjugation of the whites?

    With any luck, this stalemate would instill a koan-like quality that would cause them to reflect inward and realize the lucriousness of their trying to apply PC principles to a land of make believe. More likely, they’d adapt a posture of anger in hopes it will bring to them all the fresh sensitive girl pussy they hoped being PC would bring them in the first place.

  • http://Website Dave Rickey

    Now *that’s* how you whack the piss out of the tar baby. Don’t deflect it with flim-flam about how “including other racial appearances into DA would distract from the thematic integrity” or any other tap-dancing, step right into it and call the player an asshole for even bringing it up.

    –Dave

  • http://geldonsgaming.blogspot.com/ geldonyetich

    On the other hand, if I were interested in keeping the job which I may never have, I’d probably inform them that I could see where they were coming from, the lore of the world is important enough that I’d like to add those ethnicity right, with these races having real places within the vision of the game world, than simply implement them as a different skin thrown over the protagonist with zero explanation whatsoever and insult the fan’s intelligence acting like that’s alright.

    To an extent, I’m still telling them they need to learn how to fucking roleplay, but at least I’m making them feel special insofar as treasuring their ethnicity as something worth a real place in the game world instead of throwing them tossing it in the character skin artist’s “to-do” bin for no good reason whatsoever.

  • http://Website DSJ

    Ever notice however in a fantasy setting where the races are elves, dwarves, humans, etc … they are all white versions of those? And almost all the “evil” races deviate to color….. hrmmm …. wonder whether most of those creating the games are white guys? … yeah probably huh? The simple fact is that every time you see a fictional setting that is created “without race” (in an effort to avoid the subject most probably) what you end up almost always seeing is a setting “without any race but whites”. I think there is a false belief by some that if you simply create a world where “race” doesn’t exist visually (since all the avatars are the same) that you can eliminate the idea of racial differences — when in fact your default plain jane avatars end up being all white (which serves as a bias none-the-less). Include the options to create a diverse avatar and throw in diverse characters and you can entirely blunt any criticism. What the hell are you paying those artists to make everything look the same for anyway?

  • http://Website Dave Rickey

    Oh wow, DSJ, in 29 years of playing fantasy RPG’s of one kind or another, *nobody* ever pointed that out to me before. And as a “person of color”, I didn’t notice that nearly all the faces at the office party and conventions were white. Thank you for pointing this out for me, it changes everything.

    –Dave

  • http://Website Spyke

    Word.

  • http://www.poesies.com Cedia

    It all goes back to Tolkien, who was apparently racist. Ever wonder why the evil southerners were Indian/Middle-Eastern?

  • http://Website Iconic


    Dave Rickey:

    Oh wow, DSJ, in 29 years of playing fantasy RPG’s of one kind or another, *nobody* ever pointed that out to me before. And as a “person of color”, I didn’t notice that nearly all the faces at the office party and conventions were white. Thank you for pointing this out for me, it changes everything.
    –Dave

    Okay sarcastic guy, what do you see being done about it, either in terms of diversifying the cast of characters in games, or the cast of characters who are making games?

    If the state of affairs is so obvious that it doesn’t even need to be mentioned, then why isn’t more being done about it?

  • http://Website Iconic


    Cedia:

    It all goes back to Tolkien, who was apparently racist. Ever wonder why the evil southerners were Indian/Middle-Eastern?

    I assume it was some sort of jihad against the decadent, godless elves and their zionist hobbit pigdogs.

  • http://Website Dave Rickey


    Iconic:

    Okay sarcastic guy, what do you see being done about it, either in terms of diversifying the cast of characters in games, or the cast of characters who are making games?
    If the state of affairs is so obvious that it doesn’t even need to be mentioned, then why isn’t more being done about it?

    Tell me what the *goal* is? “Blackwashing” the racial makeup of the inhabitants of our gameworlds doesn’t just smack of tokenism, it *is* tokenism (I point to the Erudites of EQ1, and the Saracen of DAOC). Likewise, what’s the point of recruiting a game development team by hiring everyone at GDC that isn’t white (not that I’m sure you could get fill out an entire AAA team that way)? What does this *accomplish*?

    Now, if you wanted to do something of substance, you could draw on other myth sources, rather than giving a eurocentric milieu a facelift. But that wouldn’t be easy, the line from Nordic and Celtic myth to WoW is a very long one, and what came out the other side is barely recognizable. Doing the same from some other source would be reproducing the collective effort of thousands over centuries.

    –Dave

  • http://geldonsgaming.blogspot.com/ geldonyetich

    Ever notice however in a fantasy setting where the races are elves, dwarves, humans, etc … they are all white versions of those?

    Technically, in the dwarves and elves case it makes sense. At least the dwarves prefer to live in caves and the elves are loathe to leave overgrowth. Just where does does a need for Melanin manifest in races that don’t spend a whole lot of time in the sun?

    In the human’s case, well, it’s easy to lose sight of this in modern times, but not too long ago (say, on the scale of a couple hundred years ago) it was the case that something like 99.9999% of the people in a given place would be wholly indigenous. Without planes, trains, or automobiles, you’re stuck on horse or foot, and probably visiting paranoid foreigners whose distance results in minimal relations with your people and probably harbor suspicions that any sudden tourists are outcasts or spies for a foreign invader.

    Consequently, if the story takes place in medieval European-like environs, complete with lush forests, mountains, European-style castles and monsters… it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense there’d be a lot of people visiting from the savannas and deserts.

  • http://Website Freakazoid

    Of all the juicy gaming news to talk about, it’s someone at bioware saying something stupid about race that gets you to post?

    Well. If it’s racist outrage you want… azaroth is ressurecting In Por Ylem. There will be no shortage of it there from players.

  • http://Website Vetarnias

    Strange, however, that nobody seems offended that Dwarves always seem to have Scottish accents (as parodied in the Order of the Stick webcomic), nor that they should look like a cliché of a highlander, or, indeed, come in clans.

    Or perhaps this is based on the observations of that well-known admirer of the Scots, Dr. Johnson: “Your country consists of two things, stone and water. There is, indeed, a little earth above the stone in some places, but a very little; and the stone is always appearing. It is like a man in rags; the naked skin is still peeping out.”

    To be honest, I’m a bit tired of all that race-baiting taking place, of which that first quotation is a very good sample (as far as I can tell, as I didn’t play Dragon Age). So because Race A is being oppressed by Race B, there should immediately be a parallel to the whole American context (Americans, always Americans). Somehow I’d just like to see this accusation levelled at a Norwegian studio working on its own franchise, just so that the lead writer could respond : “No, that’s not at all based on the United States, we drew our inspiration from our split with Sweden.”

    Still, some parts of fantasy writing leave me perplexed. When I played Age of Conan, I read a bit on Robert E. Howard: quite a racist, by most accounts (and his pal Lovecraft wasn’t better). Also, in vanilla D&D, what about the inherently evil elves, the Drow, having black skin?

    So what happens when you can play regular elves with black skin? I don’t oppose it, as long as you allow the player to build a Drow with white skin. And in the end, you get no difference at all, for better or worse.

    I see more of this discussion taking place for gender. I recall reading about how female characters in Mount & Blade: Warband fared badly in matters of social status — but isn’t it to be expected in a game that attempts to create a realistic, albeit fictitious, medieval world? And that’s not mentioning all the games in which gender still plays a part. To what extent should some form of inequality be allowed in the name of realism or gameplay depth? Not to mention strictly respecting lore: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/8009-Critical-Miss-28

    Oh well, it’s 3:30 in the morning, time to sleep on it.

  • http://Website Tez

    after all this time and for most things to be OVERcompensating for blacks (well that is certainly true in England) these blacks still have that bloody chip on their shoulder. ”It’s coz i’m black init” Like someone else said in the bioware forum i bet all of you if the world was set in africa by black writers and game designers i bet not one white person would cry RACIST. You blacks have a serious problem and chip on your shoulder.

  • http://Website Tez

    by world i ment the fantasy world *

  • http://Website Sheepherder

    Whew, that clarification makes everything better.

  • http://uk.europe1400.com Siegerich

    Bioware is the company making the best narrative games, mostly by putting a lot of effort into story (yes, take that as challenge to proove me wrong, if you like).

    They are not the company doing the best community management. In fact, SWOR will be their first MMO. Therefor, it’s nothing we didn’t expect, right? Even in World of Warcraft from 1942 you find a lot of jerky forum moderators and game operators if you look out for them. You don’t even have to search.

    So what’s the point?

  • http://uk.europe1400.com Siegerich


    Tez:

    i wish a painful cancer upon the writer of this blog. I would love to rape his/her mother.

    Please don’t wonder if exactly that happens to you.

    Just to balance that out: I wish that Scott gets a good job in a good games company very soon, stays very healthy and competent, to be able to keep up this blog as long as possible.
    And thanks for it.

    I don’t like this blog entry, because I think you missed to hit a big issue, plus it seems to spam the comment section with forum jerks. If I would want that, I can get back to forums. I only wonder if it keeps up long enough to bring up a comparison to Hitler. Still, keep it up, Scott.

  • http://Website Njal

    The point is that there is no point. So you may as well write what you want to write.

    Isn’t that all like philosophical and all.

  • http://Website Sheepherder

    What does SWTOR have to do with this?

  • http://Website dartwick

    Its fun when the angries post here :)

    Anyway there is pretty much no way that you can make semi-historic European mythology in game and keep all people of non-European races happy.

    There will always be a few people who whine about tokenism, racism, or something else.

    Obviously the easiest move for a game company is to heavily modify any Mythology or history and and allow any person to have any ethnic feature the player wants. This is probably smartest too.

    As for dwarves etc. Ive always felt they were largly inspired by antisemitism. They allow creater to make use of many of the negative images attributed to Jews in Europe by attributing them to a who new race. Plus theirs the beard thing.

  • http://Website dartwick

    And a second note. I have always felt Elves are kind of gay (as they have developed in the 20th century at least)and and their ascendancy in fantasy literature represented a repressed homosexuality on the part of some fantasy creators.

  • http://Website Larry Lard


    Tez:

    (well that is certainly true in England)

    It’s so much easier to see people’s signs when they helpfully wave them around for you isn’t it :)

  • http://Website Sine nomine


    Siegerich:

    Bioware is the company making the best narrative games, mostly by putting a lot of effort into story (yes, take that as challenge to proove me wrong, if you like).
    They are not the company doing the best community management. In fact, SWOR will be their first MMO. Therefor, it’s nothing we didn’t expect, right? Even in World of Warcraft from 1942 you find a lot of jerky forum moderators and game operators if you look out for them. You don’t even have to search.
    So what’s the point?

    Man, Tseric’s rant was great. Thanks for reminding me.

  • Scott Jennings

    Just to balance that out: I wish that Scott gets a good job in a good games company very soon

    Already covered! I’m happy where I am. And the blog’s been up over a decade. I don’t think I could kill it if I wanted to, it achieved sentience back in 2007.

    Alas for the correspondent who wanted to rape my mother, I trust he was being drily sarcastic, but in case he really is looking for raping partners she passed away a couple of decades ago.

  • http://Website Ironwood

    Dear God, Scott, don’t go giving him a challenge….

  • http://f13.net Yegolev

    what am i reading i dont even