I guess all the VCs who were drawn to the hand-wavey “clone WoW, make millions!” business model are moving on to the next big thing: “clone Farmville, make millions!”
As a gamer, the WoW clone phenomenon was frustrating, since it seemed to completely stifle any innovation in a genre I really love. This time, though… I just don’t see any redeeming quality in facebook games, and I’m already feeling preemptive schadenfreude at the wave of failures I’m certain will wash ashore over the few years.
But… when I see guys like Sid Meier and Raph Koster chasing what I think of as a completely bogus genre, I start to question my instincts. Could I be… wrong about this? Is there something worth looking at here after all? This can’t REALLY be the future of gaming?
I wonder when people are going to stop saying “is this really the future?” and take the blindfolds off and realize that in fact, it’s not only the future but also the present.
For every person who says “MMOs aren’t evolving”, there is a new multiplayer game evolving. Whether or not people open up their eyes and see it is a whole different story…..
I think it’s a good call. It’s clear there’s a lot more users on Facebook to stumble across and give your game a try than would stumble across you on random_internet_game_website_92341.
Plus, it suits the demographic of the game a bit better, I think.
Actually, assuming the kids are still into MySpace (I get the feeling a lot may have moved on by now) that might be an even better demographic to hook.
AAA gaming is opera: high end stuff for a nichey group of snob fanatics, dwindling away. Get used to it.
But damned if it isn’t true.
It might not even be that it’s “dwindling away,” per say. It might just be that since gaming went mainstream there’s been so much shallow mainstream-focused crap piled atop the opera that it’s hard to find the maestros beneath the din of boy bands.
If you look at the indy scene, or even learn to roll your own, you might be reasonably satisfied. But, as far as mainstream gaming is concerned, AAA it is not. X-COMs and Deus Ex’s making way for Cooking Mamas and Madden XXIV.
“AAA gaming is opera: high end stuff for a nichey group of snob fanatics, dwindling away. Get used to it.”
Pretty disappointing to see that sentiment coming from you, Raph. I was sincerely unaware that enjoying my particular hobby over the past couple decades made me a snob.
It’s amazing to me how game developers will gladly piss all over those who have provided them with a living for so many years at the hint of a possible new fad / gold mine that can be exploited.
Raph: You sell AAA gaming short by comparing it to opera. No other type of gaming outsells AAA games. Modern Warfare 2 is already above $1 billion in revenue. WoW is far beyond that. That’s comparable to the very biggest mainstream movies, like Avatar or Star Wars, not opera.
If face book is the Atari 2600, which game is going to be the ET?
And most popular game in HISTORY? I’d love to see the numbers/definition that justifies that hyperbole. Surely not most popular in terms of “would the average person on the street know this game?”
Facebook claims, http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?statistics, to have over 350 million active users. Thus would seem impossible for Farmville to be more popular in terms of “number of people who have played it”.
If we restrict the field to computer games, my best guess for an easy competitor would be minesweeper/windows solitaire, but I have no idea how to get an estimate of that playerbase.
Not that I disagree with your premise that the modern idea of “Video Game” == “FPS” is referring to an opera-like niche. But I might rather say that it is a “Disaster Movie”-like niche. I think it will retain good numbers, but in the long run will be seen as a minor-genre rather than the be-all of the field.
I could run the easy ratio calculation on that and come up with a number, but what good would it do me? Its like pointing at World of Warcraft’s 10+ millions of subscribers and calling EverQuest’s 550k a “failure.”
The thing you’ve got to remember about classical music is that it’s still around, hundreds of years later, long after we’ve largely forgotten the Bojangles.
The people who still make classical music won’t get paid as much as those who have managed to force a boy band down to throat of the majority of America, but that’s fine with them because they have a completely different motivation: they want to make excellence, not money — well, insofar as they’ve able to survive on what they do make.
So when Raph it was, “dwindling away” he was perhaps exaggerating, or more likely (like anyone who appreciates AAA titles) bemoaning obvious injustices.
How else should I react to “a completely bogus genre” and “no redeeming qualities”? That IS snobbery.
Look, I am not saying that everyone who plays AAA is a snob. After all, I play those games myself. So I apologize. I called you and others something that you are not.
But you can’t deny there IS a lot of snobbery around this issue, just as there is around Flash gaming, or Wii games.
What I don’t get is why people are offended at being characterized as highbrow opera snobs. From my viewpoint, Raph was merely accusing you of having taste :>
Snobbery is a mental shortcut to dismiss out of hand those things you are unlikely to enjoy anyways. If your tastes are sufficiently cultivated, the logic goes, there is no point wasting the finite hours you have on this planet with $2 wine. Sure, this does mean you’ll miss the occasional gem, but you can also take some comfort that such gems will eventually be identified and be rebottled at $50 for your enjoyment.
Now, clearly, if your goal is to maximize money, rather than enjoyment, snobbery is a very dangerous set of blinders. After all, this disjunction between prices is precisely where you can get into the rebottling business.
Personally, I’ve never been able to use any Facebook App because I refuse to run an app that claims it needs to access all my personal information to operate when, clearly, it does not need that sort of access.
Nothing wrong with Facebook games… just as long as they aren’t Amway/Pyramid schemes that REQUIRE me to friend a bunch of people (either by roping in my friends or friending a bunch of complete strangers) just to unlock aspects of play.
But you can’t deny there IS a lot of snobbery around this issue, just as there is around Flash gaming, or Wii games.
It’s mostly a matter of perspective, really.
If you are into casually accessible games and apparently if you are developing for said games, you probably would look at these people as exhibiting snobbish behavior.
On other hand, if you are one of these people, you’re getting pretty damn frustrated how hard it is to find a game with deep, satisfying mechanics when it’s easier to produce for the casuals (who outnumber these people so greatly this is apparently a more profitable model) that you would respond to these accusations with all the appeal of somebody telling you it’s wrong to have standards.
I prefer what would probably be classified as AAA games (WoW currently, but just about everything else under the sun from UO onwards), but I’d never dismiss a genre/style of gaming as crap just because I don’t enjoy it.
To each their own I guess is what I’m saying. Just because we (playing the collective card) enjoy the AAA type games that doesn’t make us any better than the millions of players who enjoy browser games, or in this case Facebook games.
Raph, just do us all a favor. Get the rights to UO and do it over again, with a more modern engine. Please.
My question is: is Metaplace now making FB games… or are you using this to do something like illustrate how you can use the tech you’ve created to allow other people to make FB games (and somehow monetize that)?
Because while Farmville et al are staggeringly popular and commercially successful, I’m a bit surprised to see such a completely derivative game coming from your shop, Raph. And I think there are valid questions to be asked about the commercial viability of yet-another of the type of games flooding Facebook already.
So if this is a stealth tech/biz demo, terrific! If this is the new direction of Metaplace as developer of games we’ve already seen… well like I said, I’m surprised.
As to those who for whatever reason don’t believe accessible, more casual, free browser-based games are huge business, or that to succeed in it you have to “do every horrible thing in the book” (a quote that will not and should not go away), I think the time for that argument is over. This market has arrived, even for those businesses with ethics. PC-retail and console games are stumbling. EA estimates free online games will outsell console games in the next few years. The revenues in free-to-play are clearly there, and they’re broad based. If this isn’t games as you’ve known them, well, get ready for a change. Sticking your head in the sand won’t keep it away.
Raph :
How else should I react to “a completely bogus genre” and “no redeeming qualities”? That IS snobbery.
Look, I am not saying that everyone who plays AAA is a snob. After all, I play those games myself. So I apologize. I called you and others something that you are not.
But you can’t deny there IS a lot of snobbery around this issue, just as there is around Flash gaming, or Wii games.
I don’t take any issue with the “snob” label, it’s a reasonably fair description. I used harsh language and I stand by what I said, although I should emphasize that while I see nothing of interest in any of these games (at least, not yet), I’m aware that millions of people would disagree, and I’m not going to tell them that they’re wrong.
Looking at it a little more objectively – and not only as a snob who simply doesn’t value the sort of experience available from Facebook games – I have plenty of reason to wonder whether Facebook gaming is really “it” from a business perspective. Farmville is a success, but is there room for more than a few players in this market? How many Farmvilles can there really be? How do you compete with such a dominant player? Do you clone and extend (difficult, given the massive social inertia)? If not, do you try to create something completely different, with more depth? If so, how much complexity and depth will this market really tolerate? All of us snobs will still be off playing WoW and other traditional games, remember.
I kind of wonder if it’s already too late, if Zynga has already set in stone its dominance. Of course I’m sure it’s relatively easy to become a financially viable niche player in the Facebook game market, since the barriers to entry are so much lower than in traditional games. But then, is “financially viable niche player” what facebook game developers and their backers are really hoping for when they see Zynga’s meteoric ascension?
Ah, well, we’re now into more interesting questions. I think the analyses by Tahdg Kelly on Gamasutra, by Daniel James on his blog, and by David Edery on his are all worth reading, for example.
As far as the future of AAA, I think it boils down to “less of them” and “the bar ever higher” which go hand in hand. But that isn’t a new story, I have been saying that for years now, and nobody has ever liked the message, and yet it keeps coming truer every year. hell, *I* don’t like the message. I first used the opera analogy in a speech over a year ago.
But the fact is that just about nobody can make Uncharted 2, just like just about nobody can make WoW… and core gamers (some of them anyway) are calling this year a disappointment? Brace yourselves, it is going to get MUCH worse.
Personally, a gamer and a fledgling Indy, I’ve been going back to fundamentals. I don’t think that it’s so much “the bar is even higher” so much as where we’ve decided to set it.
Of course, the whole story behind that is that the more I go back to fundamentals, the more I see that much of this ground has already been tread and what we see today is perhaps a natural progression.
However, I can’t shake the feeling that there were many forks on that path, and many paths less traveled that could lead to potentially lucrative results.
“I have been saying that for years” *only just now makes a facebook game*
It’s hard to hate raph when really, this is just a grab for money. He kinda needs it. Although I doubt he’ll find the mega riches in facebook of all places, he stands a chance at a steady revenue. I’m chalking up his hate against the real gaming industry as bitterness.
Freakazoid :
“I have been saying that for years” *only just now makes a facebook game*
It’s hard to hate raph when really, this is just a grab for money. He kinda needs it. Although I doubt he’ll find the mega riches in facebook of all places, he stands a chance at a steady revenue. I’m chalking up his hate against the real gaming industry as bitterness.
I thjnk there may be a little bitterness there, but mostly it was just a reaction, probably to a lot more than just this blog.
But I think Koster’s right, I think we’ll see our “AAA” games pushing their honed experience of Diku right off the edge of the cliff, and then simply shutting it down and moving to other sorts of game.
We’ll never see another UO, unless an investor comes from outside the current industry and happens to hook up with someone whose got “the vision” and the talent to put it together. Not likely, but as they say…”that’s why they play the games”.
Raph wrote, “But the fact is that just about nobody can make Uncharted 2, just like just about nobody can make WoW”
That’s true. Similarly, only one developer can make Farmville what it is. The rest of the pack can try to clone it (or, in the case of the island farming sub-genre, can try to clone Meteor Games’ Island Paradise, who reskinned Farmville, who cloned Farmtown), but so the closest anyone ELSE has gotten to a farm game in terms of popular is almost a magnitude away from Farmville.
How’s that different from AAA, where you have one or two leaders in the fantasy MMO genre, in the FPS genre, the music game genre, etc and then a whole bunch of derivatives? Genuine question.
AAA isn’t going anywhere since it is by definition whatever the biggest, shiniest, and costliest upper segment of the market is. It will always be there since it’s a relative turn. At the same time, the upward spiral on budgets simply cannot be sustained. Something has to give and so that has to begin to plateau. So next years AAA might look a lot like this years AAA as the rate of improvement shifts from being constrained almost solely by technology and towards being constrained by organizational and budgetary concerns. It’s been heading slowly in that direction for a while now and the rate is accelerating.
I can’t say I’m a big fan of the opera analogy. Opera was and is a fairly static art form. It has been dismissed by the population at large because it has not changed, we’re still watching the same operas now that we did 100s of years ago. Games on the other hand, even AAA games, are always different year after year. They tend to evolve in most cases, revolutions happen seldomly, especially when you’re talking about years of development time 8 figure budgets. But still they change, they adapt, and they remain relevant to a significant number of people. A portion of the population that has continued to grow numerically even if it has shrunk proportionally.
Facebook games and their ilk do not seem to be the end all be all direction of things to come though. We all grew up on games, we’re all early adopters here, we’re used to having our feet wet. Simple games at first since that’s all that technology would allow but as those limitations were gradually removed we flowed into more complex offerings no longer satisfied with simpler fare. The 100s of millions of people playing Farmville right now on the other hand just got shoved into the pool. Over the last decade due to the sudden, to them, penetration of computers and the internet into their daily lives they find themselves in a potentially very deep pool without knowing how to swim. Is it any wonder that the vast majority of them head straight for the shallow end? But that doesn’t mean that they’re going to stay there. The Facebook crowd is going to tire of the trite offerings being thrust their way currently and move on to more substantial fare, eventually.
Matt Mihaly :
Raph wrote, “But the fact is that just about nobody can make Uncharted 2, just like just about nobody can make WoW”
That’s true. Similarly, only one developer can make Farmville what it is. The rest of the pack can try to clone it (or, in the case of the island farming sub-genre, can try to clone Meteor Games’ Island Paradise, who reskinned Farmville, who cloned Farmtown), but so the closest anyone ELSE has gotten to a farm game in terms of popular is almost a magnitude away from Farmville.
How’s that different from AAA, where you have one or two leaders in the fantasy MMO genre, in the FPS genre, the music game genre, etc and then a whole bunch of derivatives? Genuine question.
–matt
It’s different in at least one key aspect: it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to make a bad clone of Farmville than it is to make a bad clone of WoW (or Second Life). You can afford to throw a LOT more crap at the Facebook wall hoping something sticks before you run out of money and the VCs come by to rip the copper out of your walls.
But here’s the thing I keep coming back to: if it’s that much easier to make games, then games become commodities that much more rapidly, and competition moves that much more quickly.
JeremyT wrote, “it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to make a bad clone of Farmville than it is to make a bad clone of WoW (or Second Life)”
That’s why I wrote that only one developer can make Farmville what it is. Most or nearly all devs that could produce Farmville as a product couldn’t turn it into a 73 million person-per-month game. So far, it’s exactly 1 developer that’s been able to do that. The craft here is in the business side of the operation (marketing, business model, etc) rather than the creative side of the operation.
That’ll probably change over time, but we’re aways from it yet I think. There’s a large new audience that has never really, demographically, been gamers before. There’s a lot of assumed knowledge, experience, and tropes that we gamers have built in that we take for granted. It’ll take time for the rest of the population to partly catch up (most of them will never be interested in games the way many of us are).
Matt Mihaly :
That’s why I wrote that only one developer can make Farmville what it is. Most or nearly all devs that could produce Farmville as a product couldn’t turn it into a 73 million person-per-month game. So far, it’s exactly 1 developer that’s been able to do that. The craft here is in the business side of the operation (marketing, business model, etc) rather than the creative side of the operation.
Okay, but it depends on your definition of success. Why 73M? A few months ago no game had that number of players — and a few months before that 50M was stratospheric, and before that 20M was. IMO what matters here is commercial success (or design success, but that’s much more elusive). 73M isn’t the mark; whatever creates a sustainable, profitable business is — and that’s a much lower, much more attainable mark.
To your earlier question:
Matt Mihaly :
How’s that different from AAA, where you have one or two leaders in the fantasy MMO genre, in the FPS genre, the music game genre, etc and then a whole bunch of derivatives? Genuine question.
The key differences: orders of magnitude lower cost of development and marketing, much greater breadth of the channel (see the iPhone for the new narrow-channel), and overall an increased probability of maintaining a sustained business.
At 20c ARPU on casual browser games (a number that is sure to rise, especially given where it is on free-to-play MMOs), you need about 500K MAU to have about $100K revenues per month — enough to sustain a small studio. (and of course that’s on a single game, but we’ll assume one game for now; the picture gets even better when you release a second or third).
According to Appdata, the top 20 games on FB all have 8M MAU or more (so roughly revenues of $1.6M per month — that’s already a different world from AAA games, whether box or online). In addition, right now the top 132 games on FB all have at least 500K MAU — that number grows every month.
While some are no doubt monetizing better than others, with those numbers any of these 100+ games could be supporting a small self-sustaining studio (without, note, any investment at the VC level with the pressures it brings). This is entirely different from the hit-driven AAA games industry as we’ve known it, and shows the truth of the long fat tail. How many independent studios make a sustainable business in AAA games? I’m pretty sure it’s nowhere near 100.
The other interesting thing about this is that of the more than 100 games that have 500K MAU or more, few are ones any of us have likely heard of: Willy’s Sweet Shop, Quiztastic, Flying Dog, Bite Me, and, as they say, many many more.
The sum of this is, new online games — social games, FB games, and others — are as different from AAA games for developers and publishers as they are for consumers. And I believe this change is only just getting started.
I’m all for measuring by financial success rather than comparatively, Mike. It doesn’t much matter to me how my competitors are doing as long as I’m doing ok.
I was just challenging Raph’s claim that AAA games were different because just about only one dev can make Uncharted 2 or WoW. There are many other AAA games that are profitable without being Uncharted 2 or WoW.
As for Farmville – they have spent millions and millions in promotion building it to 73 million users. I consider that just as much a part of building the product/service as paying the programmers. Yes, that is still an order of magnitude, at least, less than something like Modern Warfare 2, but then, the revenue and income from Farmville is at least a magnitude less than Modern Warfare 2 as well.
I agree that Facebook currently offers a better opportunity for small studios but then, that’s not what Raph was talking about. He was comparing the biggest game in the social genre to the biggest games in the AAA genre……and they don’t look that different in the sense that both can be made into what it is by only one or two devs in the world (in Farmville’s case only 1 – others are trying with flat-out clones and not coming anywhere near to Farmville’s success).
Yes, a ton of Facebook games can support a small, self-sustaining studio, but I don’t think that’s “the future of games” either. As you say, hardly anyone’s heard of something like Willy’s Sweet Shop, which says to me that it’s probably not the future of gaming. If you’re going to point at Facebook and say “future of gaming because Farmville is the most popular game ever” then I think you can’t look at games that have 1/100th as many players and put them in the same category any more than you can look at, say, Earth Eternal and put it in the same category as WoW.
In other words, while Farmville may be the most popular video game in history (not sure that’s true, but willing to accept it for the sake of argument), its success is as virtually singular as that of WoW’s or Modern Warfare 2′s. There are many differences between FB games and AAA games, but the fact that only one or two studios can make the biggest game around is not one of those differences.
There seems to be some ambiguity by what’s meant by “AAA gaming.”
Maybe that’s mostly me: It’s fairly clear that what’s meant by a triple-A title in industry terms is a big-budget blockbuster, but when I heard it being related to snobbery, here I thought what was being referred to was deep, meaningful games… which, by and large, the average triple-A title is not.
Gaming snobs/people with high standards would generally snub Madden or World of Warcraft on the grounds that they’re so highly derivative. Well, okay, dragging WoW into that is perhaps going a little too far – it did manage to do EverQuest significantly better than EverQuest by simply streamlining it into a good product.
Anywho, I don’t think the line is so clearly drawn between games that exploit social networking and AAA titles. Indeed, they’re completely different tangents.
I’m happy enough to think of Facebook games as a new genre of games, but one that I’m completely uninterested in as a player.
I also find it hard to believe that Raph and others (Brian Reynolds is also working on Facebook stuff) really dig making Facebook games. I’m sure the lure of the money is exciting, but I can’t believe that the guy behind UO and SWG really loves Farmville and wants to make games like that.
Matt, agreed that comparisons between AAA and online social games are sort of apples and oranges. OTOH, both bear on the future of how games are developed and consumed. There, I suspect there’s not a singular answer: high-budget, high-risk games will continue to be made and consumed, as will low-budget, small-team games.
What I see overall is that there are more small teams succeeding today (whether or not we’ve heard of them) than ever before — and thus, by population numbers if nothing else, such teams are (a significant part of) the present and future of game development. At least until the cultural and technological landscape changes again as it has multiple times over the past thirty years or so.
In other words, the existence of Farmville doesn’t make Facebook as a platform significant. Farmville is a predictable outlier (not the game itself, but that one game will garner a singular number of players). What’s significant to me is instead the overall body of games on Facebook as a whole, and the shape of the usage curve: there are well over a hundred games that are likely pulling in commercially significant revenue, rather than a revenue curve where only the top 5 or so AAA games make sustainable revenues.
Most of those smaller games were made by tiny teams with equally tiny budgets. And yet they have access to a potential player base measuring in the hundreds of millions. That is a significant change in the rules of commercial success in developing games: you no longer have to be (or even compete head-to-head against) EA — or even Zynga — to be commercially successful on a sustainable scale.
Mark Asher :
I also find it hard to believe that Raph and others (Brian Reynolds is also working on Facebook stuff) really dig making Facebook games. I’m sure the lure of the money is exciting, but I can’t believe that the guy behind UO and SWG really loves Farmville and wants to make games like that.
Don’t look at the Farmville-class of games as the future: they’re the past. What you’re seeing in play right now is like looking in a rear-view mirror. Online games, whether on FB or on the web, are moving from that kind of game, not toward it.
[quote]I’m sure the lure of the money is exciting, but I can’t believe that the guy behind UO and SWG really loves Farmville and wants to make games like that.[/quote]
Agreed. It all seems a bit disingenuous — like a Michelin-starred chef deciding to run a hamburger stand.
Baroo :
[quote]I’m sure the lure of the money is exciting, but I can’t believe that the guy behind UO and SWG really loves Farmville and wants to make games like that.[/quote]
Agreed. It all seems a bit disingenuous — like a Michelin-starred chef deciding to run a hamburger stand.
It probably had more to do with the investors than him. But we’ll probably never know, he seems to be behind the ideas pretty strongly. And I doubt he’d feel right about saying otherwise.
Mark Asher :
I also find it hard to believe that Raph and others (Brian Reynolds is also working on Facebook stuff) really dig making Facebook games. I’m sure the lure of the money is exciting, but I can’t believe that the guy behind UO and SWG really loves Farmville and wants to make games like that.
Don’t look at the Farmville-class of games as the future: they’re the past. What you’re seeing in play right now is like looking in a rear-view mirror. Online games, whether on FB or on the web, are moving from that kind of game, not toward it.
That may be, but I’m not convinced that newer kinds of games will prosper the way Farmville has. I think the Facebook masses want really simple games. Very easy to understand, very easy to play, and not time-consuming unless you want to be obsessive, and a social element to help them go viral.
I have bought pretty much every p2p MMo thats been released in the last 10 years, and at least gave them a try .
But 1 thing I wont do is support f2p or facebook type games in any form.
It seems like these types of games are absolutely made for the lowest common denominator and self absorbed types. Yes that market is bigger than the AAA type market but seriously, is the grab for cash that appealing? Its a gigantic step down from being a dev of UO to being a facebook one.
Its like the movie “Idiocracy” is not really a movie after all. Its a giant friggin crystal ball.
“Facebook is the Atari 2600. Expect it to matter more, not less”
No, Facebook is the newfangled mall center that everyone is hanging out in. Farmville is a guy who had the foresight to put neat little candy vending machines in the mall and is making good money with low overhead. You are the guy that’s yelling that the mall is going to make restaurants obsolete.
Despite all the posts dissecting Raph’s opera comparison, I still don’t know what to make of it. What I know is that it bothers me. Why exactly? Because we know Raph’s pedigree and legacy, and it’s as though he grabbed all of it and dropped it in the trash can. Not a bad thing in itself; it takes quite a fair amount of cojones to finally admit, after years of work on one subject, that your time might have been better spent elsewhere, and it’s folly to cling to, say, a theory, model, etc. that has clearly been disproved purely because you happened to formulate it. But what bothers me here is how casually Raph places it in the trash, only to embrace something else that promises to be the next big thing — which may or may not be true.
If anything, Raph is a pioneer of MMO’s, back when it was cool and niche, and when developers were still sailing on uncharted oceans without really knowing what they were unleashing. But something seems to have happened in that decade or so that saw the evolution of MMO’s from the niche to the stultifyingly mainstream: the sense of exploration, discovery, and tinkering has vanished. You’re just copying what the other guy is doing because he is successful, and rising budgets for games means you can’t risk being innovative.
And the problem with pioneers is that they are looked at with suspicion when they are too successful in remaining in the industry they started. Pioneers are expected to be “rolling over in their grave” over what they have started, or if they happen to still be alive, they must look upon it with a mix of horror and regret, better still if they express their guilt publicly. If they try to remain a major player in an industry that has succeeded financially but otherwise gone downhill, poetic justice dictates that their failure must provide the industry at large with a proper cautionary tale about the loss of its roots (that is to be promptly forgotten by all concerned anyway).
Raph’s eagerness to forgo the niche period of his industry to which he contributed, only to pursue ventures where the lowest common denominator can be found nowadays (not even that of WoW, which can’t be beaten on its own terms) is what makes it difficult for me to accept his dismissal of AAA titles as “snobbery” — he had no qualms with being in this industry when MMO’s were niche and for the tech version of snobs, but now he derides their direct descendents as still catering to a snob niche. It’s like MMO’s with subscriptions, WoW notwithstanding, never entered the mainstream, and somehow I’d agree, considering WoW got its popularity from the Blizzard fanboys and the rest are pretty much niche, but nowhere near the levels of snobbery involved when internet games were new (all these years, I have kept a news clipping of a poll from 1996, where 85% of respondents said they had never been on the internet). But it’s somehow not right to work in a genuinely snobbish industry before 2000 only to denounce it as such a decade later, especially when you’re moving closer to where the masses are to be found.
Geldon is right, by the way: AAA game titles aren’t opera, they’re Hollywood blockbusters; however, unlike blockbusters, they are still niche in a way, as they require you to have all the trappings of the gamer, beginning with a proper computer, to play them.
Such a shame. I had really high hopes for Metaplace when I was beta testing it. They had some great ideas at the start, but they couldn’t seem to nail the execution.
It would be sad to see them end up as simple Farmville cloners.
Facebook is the Atari 2600. Expect it to matter more, not less
No, Facebook is the newfangled mall center that everyone is hanging out in.
Personally, I’d say it’s neither. Academically (and a trapped student is naught but a hopeless academic) facebook is looked at as a whole new entity: a social networking site.
Discard it as little more than a crappy console everybody has before something better came along, or as a mere commercial venue, and you discard all the things that academics find so exciting about it.
Facebook (and social networking sites like it) is relatively cutting edge (insofar as anything a few years old is cutting edge in technology) offering levels of interaction that may mirror innovations before it, such as the invention of the telephone.
Attaching a game onto that, lamprey-like, was Farmville’s trick. If Raph can master the knack for doing the same, perhaps his next trick will be giving Ultima a second (well, lets face it, early STO was the second, this would be at least the third) run.
Way too much to respond to, and I am short on time. First — there’s some confusion over what I am referencing as “AAA”… most of the traditional game industry isn’t AAA, not even most of the boxed products. So I am referencing top of the line productions.
As to what i think about mass market or dumbing down, I refer you all to this speech from 1999:
“The consumers that are the future of our genre are everyday, ordinary people. Most of us in this technology-mad industry frankly have no contact with them. The technology we need to develop isn’t the technology of more polygons or better 3d sound or more accurate simulations. It’s the technology of people. Of giving them what they don’t know they need.
“I spent last Christmas holidays in Ohio, with my father’s side of the family. An architect, a teacher of disabled children, an ex-firefighter who now sells bathtub linings. They had many questions for me-they wanted to know if I was proud of what I did, and how I felt about videogames allegedly driving disturbed youths to acts of insane violence.
“And boy, I longed to make a game for them. Because I knew that I could get them interested in an online game that personally touched them, that made them have a greater awareness of the world around them (for in my technologically savvy big city mind, I suspect I saw them as provincial in some ways. I don’t feel too proud of myself for feeling that way, either). An online game that connected them with people they wouldn’t have otherwise interacted with. That maybe didn’t have a single dragon or spaceship in it. A game-let’s be frank-an Internet-that is woven into the fabric of their lives. I know it can be done, and I also know that it’s not online backgammon. ”
Niches live within niches. UO was mass market *of its day, for what could be reached at that time.* And today it is a niche within a niche. people forget that it (and EQ, etc) were considered to be a dumbed-down version of what had reached a much higher level of sophistication in text.
The analogy to Atari 2600 is a lot deeper than many of you are thinking of. Facebook is now a console. Extend that analogy *completely*. Currency. Preferred developers. In-house publishing. Advertising models.
But also technology races, improvements in rendering, gradually deepening complexity as usres grow in sophistication, abandoned genres, submarkets, market gluts… all of that too.
Matt, yes, Farmville’s success is singular — the Pong, Space Invaders, or Pac-Man of its day. The point under the opera analogy has more to do with the underlying economics of the market segment versus that of AAA gaming; and the implicit audience limitations of one segment versus another.
Raph :
As far as why didn’t I do one sooner? Well, I WAS doing something else, as you know.
Technically speaking, you could have skipped or dropped whatever you were doing to pursue your opinion. I don’t think you were confident enough in your opinion to pursue a facebook game at the time. Oh, but now that someone’s found the right gaming structure for you? You’re all over that shit.
Actually… I am still totally a believer in the long term validity of the Metaplace concept and approach. So yes, I could have jumped tracks. But as a believer, I wanted to see it through as far as I could. We did actually even try out MP on Facebook in the process.
So according to you Raph and your speech, the genre is headed in the right direction. Can you honestly…honestly say that the games released in the last few years, be it MMO or facebook or whatever are quality products? From core to crust, have the last few years been years of quality?
I challenge you sir to show me that the current trend of making games for those casual ordinary people has furthered the genre in any positive way other than milking stupid people every way possible.
Innoe :
I challenge you sir to show me that the current trend of making games for those casual ordinary people has furthered the genre in any positive way other than milking stupid people every way possible.
There are at least 2 positive aspects. First is that the social interconnectedness inherent in Facebook, and Web 2.0 in general, is being really harnessed for games. It’s not my cup of tea at all but it has expanded the craft. Second and more importantly is that it has massively increased the user base. Just as WoW expanded the MMO market to new heights, Facebook and Farmville have expanded the video game playing market. For some of these people Farmville, and similar games that we look on as simplistic and trite, are as deep as they’re ever likely to go. But for a good percentage of them it’s just a jumping off point. A few years from now droves of Farmville players are going to want the next best thing and every cycle of that the next best thing to them will come more and more like the next best thing to us.
They said the same thing about WoW, how WoW’s subscriber numbers were going to provide some sort of Golden Age for the MMO industry as a whole. Those subscribers were to migrate to more in-depth, complicated games that more fit their play-style. It was the Great Draw to the MMO world, who’s bounty would diffuse to the various niches of the industry.
I don’t see a huge boost from Facebook games. I see dozens if not hundreds of various companies tripping over themselves to capitalize on the same market segment.
As opera snob gamers what should truly worry you is that the next step is to take Farmville but find some way to dumb it down or simplify it to an even greater degree in a mad chase for the Holy Casual Gamer.
“Casual gamers”, we need to define these kinds of terms better. I’m much more casual than the heavy powergamers that dominate the elite status of MMORPGs, but I’m also into depth, much more depth that the current games give us. I might be a tenth degree powergamer.
WoW did bring in a lot of new gamers to the MMO scene. Unfortunately, when they got tired of WoW and started looking something different, all they found were clones in game play. They already leveled…*why!!*
I’ve got to agree with Innoe’s sentiments.
Innoe :
So according to you Raph and your speech, the genre is headed in the right direction. Can you honestly…honestly say that the games released in the last few years, be it MMO or facebook or whatever are quality products? From core to crust, have the last few years been years of quality?
I challenge you sir to show me that the current trend of making games for those casual ordinary people has furthered the genre in any positive way other than milking stupid people every way possible.
Not only that, but these games are enabling smarter players to take money from the not so smart. In effect, these games are selling poker chips and the players are playing for them.
I’m not arguing the rights of these game makers to do this, or the rights of some players to part other players from their money. “A fool and his money are soon parted” is a price we pay for freedom. But this involves the young too, and it does seem more than a tad bit contemptible, in my opinion.
A better analogy might be cars. I don’t think anyone would argue that all cars should be Lamborghinis. The average gamer doesn’t need 40 hours of story and cutting edge graphics any more than the average driver needs a supercar.
You’ll note that in this analogy, I’m not calling core gamers snobs or suggesting that core games are going away. I don’t think anyone’s quit WoW for Farmville any more than someone would trade in their Ferrari for a Civic just because the Civic is newer or more popular. It’s a big market, there’s lots of room for everyone.
BTW raph, my intent is not to attack you. As a member of the genre who was there when it started and has stayed and supported it thru the years, it pains me to see where its headed. Its this poor quality, mad grab for cash, 0 challenge thinking that is forcing me to give up a hobby I have spent most of my adult life doing.
The current template for making games in the genre is just…wrong.
Your words are very similar to what many said when the genre moved from the online services to the Internet… or from text to graphics.
FWIW, i agree the current template for the genre is wrong and limiting. Ironically, these social games actually offer hope that there’s an audience out there that wants something other than tank-nuker-healer combat!
Phrased another way… UO and yes, even SWG, in a lot of ways sound a lot like what Facebook games could become in their current evolutionary path.
Raph, I think this desire to reach out to “ordinary people” is short-sighted, especially if the way to reach out to “ordinary people” is through Facebook and such.
Caveat: Perhaps that is because I don’t use Facebook myself, but I never saw the appeal of it, so I suspect there are people out there with computers who never bothered with Myspace, and now won’t have anything to do with Facebook. People like me whom your game will never reach, and who will express bewilderment at the success of all those online networking sites. Presumably, they’re people who will never play online games, and maybe I’m in a minority.
I can understand why some people who played UO or SWG now feel betrayed by your latest foray into the casual market; we’ve seen the same thing when Nintendo went after the family market instead of the dyed-in-the-wool gamer demographic, which in Nintendo’s case was pretty ironic, considering they had a considerable role in the creation of this gamer market they were now abandoning. Nintendo just refused to age with the demographic that made it the success it was. Will that turn out to have been a smart thing to do? I don’t know, but it seems to be serving them well now.
But in your case, I think you’re too eager to abandon the line where you made your most significant contributions, for something that is unproven and may yet prove to be fool’s gold. I’m definitely not one of those “old schoolers” who still dream of those glorious pre-Trammel UO days, but I share some of their preoccupations: that the sandbox model is out, except for small projects without the imprimatur of a major studio (A Tale in the Desert, Wurm Online, Haven & Hearth, etc), that the mainstream is turning into a WoW-styled theme park in which skill or intelligence is out, and which is really a single player game with a chatbox. It’s probably pointless to try to compete with Blizzard (never mind that it ruined fantasy as a genre, because even games with more cohesive and serious worlds — Age of Conan especially — will never able to compete with 11 million zombies), but the real problem is that you’re going for something even more superficial than WoW, a genre that caters to housewives on break, where things are never meant to be challenging, where time investment in the game is shunned, because you spurn the uber-hardcore for the uber-casual, and the collective effort for a single player run in parallel with a chatbox even worse than WoW. That is why your decision is particularly unpalatable: because you’re going in a direction that will kill MMO’s while actually saying that’s the way to go since 1999.
Your article from 1999 brings up so many red flags ten years later that I’m wondering why you should think it still matters today. That reference to “Blair Witch Project”, for example; you say it was a masterpiece of viral marketing, not a movie, but “an experience”. It was also crap. By the time the sequel came out just a year later, nobody was taking it seriously, and by then the franchise had outstayed its welcome. It was all fine when it seemed to be “the little indie production that could”, but when there was a $25 million budget for the marketing alone, it wasn’t exactly indie anymore, nor was it genuine word of mouth that made it. Instead, it was just the beginning of every viral marketing trend involving the internet; as such, Blair Witch Project has a place in history books, but not for the quality of the film. Interestingly, they’re trying to hawk a remake/sequel of it, but I don’t think there are enough people who don’t feel ashamed at having seen/liked the first film a decade ago to make any such venture successful.
If that’s the parallel with where you’re heading, then I guess you will be successful, but players will be sick of it in very short order, then they’ll despise it and, in the long term, hold your game as an example of all that was wrong with the era in which it came out.
That “folks in Ohio” barometer is also difficult to palate because, while I obviously don’t know the specific people you mention, they sound exactly like those who would shortly foist eight years of Bush upon the rest of the world. I’m not an Obama fan, but I’d be wary of asking them for anything at this point.
Also this part of your text: But folks, Johnny can’t read. Certainly not Johnny the console player. Not the Johnny I run into daily at work, the fourteen-year-old who thinks that the latest expression of hip-hop gangsta rap rage is just the coolest thing going down. I find it wonderful that there are muds out there that I can go to that give me areas based on Foucault. But Johnny doesn’t care. And I am in this to make money, after all. (Crass, I know). So if that’s to be an early indicator of your current pursuit of the lowest common denominator, so be it. Nothing to brag about, though.
I don’t think Raph is selling out, per se, so much as there’s a fine line between that and identifying where people’s interests are currently at and reacting accordingly.
You’re damned either way.
If you choose to support the casual market, you’re ignoring that casual players eventually become hardcore and demand something they can really get their teeth into.
If you go the route of supporting those who have been at gaming for decades you’re turning down a much bigger audience who just don’t get your game, won’t even try your game, and you end up with an extremely niche product.
Of course, if you’re smart, you do both. Like Blizzard did with World of Warcraft. They built the game to have a reasonably short, casually-accessible 50-level tutorial and then branched into a completely hardcore endgame at the end knowing that if you’ve played the game for 50 levels you’re no longer a casual player.
Raph knows games are learning experiences. It was the point of his book. The question is: what is your Facebook game teaching?
That “folks in Ohio” barometer is also difficult to palate because, while I obviously don’t know the specific people you mention, they sound exactly like those who would shortly foist eight years of Bush upon the rest of the world. I’m not an Obama fan, but I’d be wary of asking them for anything at this point.
Then God bless the people you are talking about with disdain.
In 2008 the US secretly moved enough Yellowcake out of Iraq to make 100 nuclear bombs.
The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program — a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium — reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.
The removal of 550 metric tons of “yellowcake” — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam’s nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions.”
If you remember, Saddam had claimed that he had destroyed everything from his previous nuke plans. And the UN Weapons Inspectors agreed.
And later….
The yellowcake wasn’t the only dangerous item removed from Tuwaitha.
Earlier this year, the military withdrew four devices for controlled radiation exposure from the former nuclear complex. The lead-enclosed irradiation units, used to decontaminate food and other items, contain elements of high radioactivity that could potentially be used in a weapon, according to the official. Their Ottawa-based manufacturer, MDS Nordion, took them back for free, the official said.
Saddam’s stockpile
The yellowcake was the last major stockpile from Saddam’s nuclear efforts, but years of final cleanup is ahead for Tuwaitha and other smaller sites.
Citing the bold text, can you say “dirty bomb in a lead lined container on a ship in one of our harbors”?
You need to understand something. Our leaders do not tell us everything that goes on. One of the main reasons is to not scare the hell out of us.
Utter nonsense. The IAEA was perfectly aware of that yellowcake
“Following the 1991 Gulf War, the IAEA removed all known Iraqi stocks of nuclear material suitable for weapons use, in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 687. All other radioactive material, including uranium, was stored in sealed barrels at Tuwaitha and checked annually by the IAEA, under the terms of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The IAEA says that in December 2002, 500 tonnes of “yellowcake” and 1.8 tonnes of low-enriched uranium remained at Tuwaitha, and hundreds of other highly radioactive, industrial sources were still in the country. ”
Yes they did, Arkenor. And so did everyone who matters, all around the world. And so did the Democrats who voted for the war with Iraq. The rest is all politics, and few people in the general public were told about it.
I’m an mmo snob but my wife is a lumpenproletariat facebook gamer [Farmville].
I asked her to check out Island Life. Boy is she pissed at me….I tried to explain that it was a beta version. All she knows & cares is that it doesn’t work worth a damn. Thanks for the wife aggro Raph
@BuckeyeLife
I think you might have done more to prove Vetarnias’s point than to refute it there via the cockeyed interpretation you took of what he wrote.
So no more operas from Raph? That’s disappointing. I’m not interested in listening to boy bands, which I think is the other end of the analogy.
And I also will never play a Facebook game that rewards me by getting other players to play. That’s the equivalent to me of sending out chain letters, something else I never do. There’s something a bit smarmy and greasy-feeling about a game that is urging me to tell my friends about it and get them to sign up.
If anything, Raph is a pioneer of MMO’s, back when it was cool and niche, and when developers were still sailing on uncharted oceans without really knowing what they were unleashing. But something seems to have happened in that decade or so that saw the evolution of MMO’s from the niche to the stultifyingly mainstream: the sense of exploration, discovery, and tinkering has vanished. You’re just copying what the other guy is doing because he is successful, and rising budgets for games means you can’t risk being innovative.
Seriously, pretty much no MMO dev needs to be feeling any kind of guilt for their contribution in getting from UO to WoW and beyond.
Exploration, tinkering and discovery work best when you are among the first to really break out and be noticed. UO didn’t invent the MMO genre, but it is the first title to go really mainstream. A lot of things were tried in UO that historically turned out to be bad ideas, but when you are the first out there you get to make those mistakes.
Today, you don’t get the opportunity to make those mistakes – or that many new ones – before your game is written off by the MMO masses. Why? Because there are plenty of other options. If you want to go exploring, you need to try an indie MMO because that’s where things are being challenged, but you can’t expect polish and innovation to go hand-in-hand. For the most part, players want polish.
Are the MMO players who visit brokentoys.org MMO snobs? Hell yeah. Look at all those calling for a new UO, or mention Trammel, or comment on any other MMO touchpoint that is meaningful to an increasingly reduced proportion of the MMO player base. The opera comparison – yes, there are new operas but the same bet is to produce one of the classics – is very apt.
I’m a MMO snob too, but I do recognise the importance of social network titles, F2P, console-based MMOs and browser-based MMOs (hello Runescape, red-headed stepchild of the MMO industry) to the evolution of the genre.
The only mistakes UO made were coming up with the wrong answers to problems. For example, players used to go just insdie of a dungeon entrance and drop crates to create a barrier, sort of a defensive structure, and then range attack MOBs, easily killing them for loot. UO’s answer was to simply have MOBs destroy these barriers when they walked into them. So a fun new aspect of play was destroyed. They could have had the MOBs do damage to the crates and take a few attacks to destroy, one at a time. They could have added AI to MOBs to make them realize they were fighting a losing cause and run away, coming back to charge and retreat, random but weighted chances to “decide” what to do. In other words they could have fixed the problem instead of removing it, as with all problems.
Vetarnias :
Raph, I think this desire to reach out to “ordinary people” is short-sighted,[...]
It’s probably pointless to try to compete with Blizzard (never mind that it ruined fantasy as a genre, because even games with more cohesive and serious worlds — Age of Conan especially — will never able to compete with 11 million zombies), [...]
[...] but the real problem is that you’re going for something even more superficial than WoW, a genre that caters to housewives on break,[...]
Your article from 1999 brings up so many red flags ten years later that I’m wondering why you should think it still matters today. That reference to “Blair Witch Project”, for example; you say it was a masterpiece of viral marketing, not a movie, but “an experience”. It was also crap. [...]
[...] but I don’t think there are enough people who don’t feel ashamed at having seen/liked the first film a decade ago to make any such venture successful.
That “folks in Ohio” barometer is also difficult to palate because, while I obviously don’t know the specific people you mention, they sound exactly like those who would shortly foist eight years of Bush upon the rest of the world.
Holy fucking shit, could you be anymore of a condescending cockhead? I submit that you could not. You shit on people from Ohio who you don’t even know, you shit on everyone who plays WoW, you shit on housewives, you people who liked The Blair Witch Project, and you shit on quote-unquote ordinary people. All in one short post that seems to think that it’s actually not being asinine. Amazing.
Oh glorious high and mighty Vetarnias, please bless us with more of your wisdom regarding why everything new and popular is terrible and how everything was much more awesome back when you were young and MMORPGs were underground and not something played by the unwashed zombie masses.
People like you make me glad people like Raph have politely told you to fuck off.
That’s the trouble with analogies, really. The further a term used from what was literally meant, the more wiggle room is available to completely misinterpret it.
It’s been my experience that most people will prefer their interpretations to your own which, while not something I can refute as their right, is also a complete failure to even attempt to communicate.
The concept Vetarnias is trying to get at it is that developing for a casual audience may, in itself, be chasing an illusion. Are any of us truly casual? Are any of us truly hardcore? Are not all of us human beings with the same overall capacity to learn and, consequently, get bored of a game which (in Raph’s assessment) are essentially objects which produce find while learning?
The deeper I get into game design, the more it seems that perspective is key. Indeed, when Io read Jesse Schnell’s “The Art Of Game Design” I was surprised to discover that he employs over 100 “lenses” throughout which are essentially just different ways of looking at a game.
I’d like to say you could develop a game with one lens, one purpose, e.g. the “casual game accessibility lens,” but it seems that wearing any one lens only gets you so far, and a game is only as deep as it is rich in perspectives it can support.
Holy fucking shit, could you be anymore of a condescending cockhead? I submit that you could not. You shit on people from Ohio who you don’t even know, you shit on everyone who plays WoW, you shit on housewives, you people who liked The Blair Witch Project, and you shit on quote-unquote ordinary people. All in one short post that seems to think that it’s actually not being asinine. Amazing.
Oh glorious high and mighty Vetarnias, please bless us with more of your wisdom regarding why everything new and popular is terrible and how everything was much more awesome back when you were young and MMORPGs were underground and not something played by the unwashed zombie masses.
People like you make me glad people like Raph have politely told you to fuck off.
Wow, do you ever have a chip on your shoulder. The guy made a pretty cohesive and well structured comment and your rebuttal is nothing but spite, obscenities, and stupidity. Your childish antics using obscenities to get your point across shows your true character. You sir are typical of the type of person who has entered the genre thru games like wow and facebook and truly made it less than what it started out to be.
Holy fucking shit, could you be anymore of a condescending cockhead? I submit that you could not. You shit on people from Ohio who you don’t even know, you shit on everyone who plays WoW, you shit on housewives, you people who liked The Blair Witch Project, and you shit on quote-unquote ordinary people. All in one short post that seems to think that it’s actually not being asinine. Amazing.
Oh glorious high and mighty Vetarnias, please bless us with more of your wisdom regarding why everything new and popular is terrible and how everything was much more awesome back when you were young and MMORPGs were underground and not something played by the unwashed zombie masses.
People like you make me glad people like Raph have politely told you to fuck off.
Wow, do you ever have a chip on your shoulder. The guy made a pretty cohesive and well structured comment and your rebuttal is nothing but spite, obscenities, and stupidity. Your childish antics using obscenities to get your point across shows your true character. You sir are typical of the type of person who has entered the genre thru games like wow and facebook and truly made it less than what it started out to be.
Sort of a sign of the times that “cohesive and well structured” equals correctness.
Innoe :Wow, do you ever have a chip on your shoulder. The guy made a pretty cohesive and well structured comment and your rebuttal is nothing but spite, obscenities, and stupidity. Your childish antics using obscenities to get your point across shows your true character.
Allow me to roll my eyes. I’m not even sure where to start with this one. There is no spite in my comment, nor was there stupidity, though there were obscenities. If you think obscenities equate to “childish antics” (it’s a freaking post, how can it even contain “antics”?) and that using them somehow says something about my “true character” (what the hell does that even mean?), then I think you’re the one who has maturity issues. But whatever.
I was not looking to rebut his argument, which I don’t really care about so much, as it were. What I was looking to do was exactly what I did, which was point out that he was being a ridiculously fucking condescending asshole. Did you even read the bits I quoted? I actually thought he was just trolling at first; it’s hard for me to imagine that someone can actually be so elitist.
To expand on this point – which, hey, maybe I should have done, though I simply too shocked at his post to really do anything more than say “holy shit you just said that” – let us take a look at Raph, who is more or less the center of this discussion, and his position. He has two primary audiences he can go for:
1) People like Vetarnias, the self proclaimed basis for his career and the genre and what have you. People who are elitist, condescending cockheads who don’t want their pristine and beautiful genre invaded by “zombies”, “housewives”, and, fucking worst of all, people from Ohio. Wait, worse yet! Republicans! Because we all fucking know how much political leaning has to do with video games. Wait, what?
2) The general masses of people who will happily play games and happily throw down a few bucks to support said games. The people who play Farmville, and (to a lesser extent) the people who play WoW.
Group 1 will hold your own success against you. Group 2 will not. Group 1 will loudly berate you for virtually every decision you make. Group 2 will not. Group 1 is small. Group 2 is not. Gee, which would you choose?
People like Vetarnias are killing their own cause. He’s the reason people like Raph don’t care about his business all that much anymore. And all of the reasons why, all the problems with the group he represents, are on display in that one post.
It is, truly, a stunning and succinct self-refutation.
You sir are typical of the type of person who has entered the genre thru games like wow and facebook and truly made it less than what it started out to be.
And here we find out that you’re one of them too! Amazing. From just one post you can determine a great many things about me! Perhaps you should have a crime-solving show on major network television. I am not entirely sure, but it seems to me that you are assuming the following about me:
1) The I play MMORPGs
2) That I started with WoW and / or Facebook games
I am not sure you are saying that, so perhaps you could clarify for me, at which point I shall proceed to prove you as much full of shit as Vet. Until then, I withhold judgment. Except to say that you, too, would seemingly fancy yourself somehow better than all these goddamn zombies invading your beloved genre.
Let me repeat: your are killing yourself. The harder you thrash this transition of the genre from “hardcore” to “casual”, the more you speed it along. Ironic, I suppose?
Also, I would love a Preview function. Or an edit function. Alas.
For some reason, I seem to have struck a nerve, but I can’t really say why. I will, however, try to answer your points.
First, you seem to make a number of assumptions about me, especially about my gaming history and style. I would have been old enough to play UO when it launched in 1997, except that it would be two full years before I got a computer that could run it, not to mention internet access. My first computer dated back to c. 1996, but it was a secondhand 486DX running Win 3.1, without a modem. That was just before university, so I was using it mostly for text formatting, and I never bought any games for it.
So, you see, I was not one of those nerd types who started playing MUD’s while in school before moving on to MMO’s, nor did I own a new console after my teenage years. For that matter, I don’t think I’ve ever owned more than a dozen cartridges for any console.
The first time I heard of UO was on one of those late-nineties TV shows that were eagerly discussing everything about that newfangled thing called the internet with wonder and excitement, but it was before I had internet access. I finally tried UO in the late Second Age period, but I did not stay beyond the trial month. My internet connection was too unstable, and my experiences in the game did not convince me it was worth giving my credit card information.
After that, it took me until 2006 – that’s seven years, if you bother with such things – to return to MMO’s, and then only to stuff I could play for free. Runescape, Puzzle Pirates, etc. The first MMO I actually paid a subscription for was Pirates of the Burning Sea, January 2008. In other words, for the time MMO’s “were underground and not played by the unwashed”, and for a long time afterwards, I was not playing them. I’m not of the “old school”, because I don’t have the pedigree for it.
I’m also not that much of a “hardcore gamer”, as in always seeking out new games, because I can’t afford to change/upgrade computers, so my own history of buying computers has been in waves of 4 years on average. The last one dates back to 2007, so I’m way past the crest. It’s one of the reasons I’m not expecting to play any of the major releases of 2010.
Why does this “casual” discussion bother me? Because, incapable of playing most new games as I am, I fear I might be pigeonholed into those “casuals” while the term (as Geldon said) just seems to be a label for something that doesn’t really exist, but was created in a boardroom somewhere. When I’m talking about “housewives”, I’m not doing it in derision of housewives, but because it seems to be what boardroom types have in mind when they mention the “casual” demographic – that and legions of Uncle Rays who have yet to be exposed to the wonders of the internet, in 1999 or today.
I am talking in clichés because the very notion of “casual” (or hardcore, etc) is based on a string of clichés, with one aim, and the lowest of all: to sell. Left to the marketing consultants, all those housewives and Uncle Rays stop being independent-minded people with their own individual tastes and preferences to become “casual”, and I object to this just as I objected to much of the way traditional gamers are thought of, based on game advertising: Koster’s “Johnny”, more or less, 14 and dumb.
Same thing with that “folks in Ohio” thing. Maybe they would like traditional gaming, but can’t afford it. Maybe they want nothing to do with gaming at all. Maybe, like me, they don’t see a point in Facebook and therefore can’t play Farmville (red flag here: can’t play Farmville without logging in to Facebook; games should stand alone, not be a third-party appendix). But underneath it, I sense again the salesman’s pitch: they don’t know they want to play games, so we must sell the idea to them, like we did by selling a cell phone to every last person on the planet, even those who didn’t need one. Like selling refrigerators to Eskimos. And since they don’t know they want to play games, and because their time is limited, we must make it easy on them. Easy, familiar, and safe. Zero innovation, like summer comedies or romance novels.
What bothers me especially is that this discussion isn’t about gamecraft, and while the idea of games-as-art makes me suspicious, I want to hear about a loftier ideal than “whatever sells”. Because it’s the discussion of gamecraft which draws me here, not the marketing of games.
Oh, and it was only after posting that I noticed Cymbaline had posted again. You seem to make much of those “zombies”, in the context of WoW. If someone likes WoW, I have no problem with it. But I have a problem with those who are bored of the game, say so every chance they get, but keep on paying Actiblizzard its $15. If they want to stop playing but can’t, it’s called addiction, but I’ve seen too many WoW fanboys – who are no worse than other fanboys in themselves, except that they can muster a much larger crowd – treat the matter lightly while throwing the 11 million figure around every time they get. I see plenty I don’t like about WoW, and I’d gladly shrug it off, but I can’t do it if everyone else starts copying it every chance they get. My real problem with WoW isn’t with the game itself – which is rather well done for what it is – but with what it has come to represent: a model for the entire mainstream industry.
On the other hand, I’m not one of those elitists you decry. I tend to be a purist in some things – I still yearn for roleplaying in MMO’s, and I won’t use voice chat, both of which make me a pariah with hardcore elitists (but I’m hardly a roleplaying elitist). Sandboxes bother me when they’re used for griefing at the expense of everything else (I despised EVE), but I welcome the opportunities they offer to players. Come to think of it, I don’t really belong in any main category of players; if that makes me an elitist, I guess I’ll have to live with it.
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong point. Hence why I said you are the “type of person”. Regardless of my views on MMO’s, your post and even your blog is a jumbled mess and comes off as being spewed with a “trailer trash” mentality.
I did see tho that in your second post you toned the obscenities down a notch so that you might be taken more seriously.
Vetarnias :
Oh, and it was only after posting that I noticed Cymbaline had posted again. You seem to make much of those “zombies”, in the context of WoW. If someone likes WoW, I have no problem with it. But I have a problem with those who are bored of the game, say so every chance they get, but keep on paying Actiblizzard its $15.
Well enough, and all, but there’s no way for me to infer that from your original “WoW zombies” sentence. Which goes back to my original point, really – maybe you’re not an elitist, maybe you don’t hate people from Ohio, etc., but that post that I first quoted certainly makes it seem so. If you’re not elitist, I’d be wary of coming off as such, particularly when one of the guys who presumably has some power to address your issues is hovering around the edges.
And yes, I am aware there is a certain degree of irony in that.
Innoe :
@cymbaline
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong point. Hence why I said you are the “type of person”. Regardless of my views on MMO’s, your post and even your blog is a jumbled mess and comes off as being spewed with a “trailer trash” mentality.
You said “type of person”, and I read that, which is why I said:
“I am not sure you are saying that, so perhaps you could clarify for me, at which point I shall proceed to prove you as much full of shit as Vet. Until then, I withhold judgment.”
Shit! I guess it’s your reading comprehension that fails! Ain’t that a bitch. My condolences. Also, neither my post nor my blog are a jumbled mess. You’re wrong. Again. Sorry. Additionally, if you think that it comes off as being “trailer trash mentality”, whatever the fuck that means, you must live in a very strange world indeed. But hey, your life, not mine.
I did see tho that in your second post you toned the obscenities down a notch so that you might be taken more seriously.
What, am I on a fucking curse word quota? If I used less curse words, it’s because I felt like using less curse words. It has nothing to do with anything else. If you don’t take someone seriously because they use curse words, you’re the one who fails, not me. Sorry. They’re words. Just words. Get over it. Also: fuck.
I thought about my last post and decided to put this to you another way.
Your untitled to your opinion as are we all. I would just like to see you do it without all the obscenities and sarcasm. I dont know about anyone else but, I come here to read the blog but more importantly, the comments from some of the best ( in my mind ) people in the industry. I would just rather not have to read thru obscenities to get to the point.
Innoe :
@ cymbaline
I would just like to see you do it without all the obscenities and sarcasm. [...] I would just rather not have to read thru obscenities to get to the point.
Such is your prerogative, but I honestly don’t understand why. Really. Sarcasm is delightful, and I have no problems with curse words. All things in moderation, as ceaseless sarcasm gets old, as does fucking saying fuck every-fucking-other fucking word. But I don’t think I’ve done either in excess. Naturally, all things are relative.
Seriously, though, I’ve had this conversation plenty of times over the years, because I cuss a lot, and lots of people hate cuss words. I’ve yet to understand why. They’re words, just like any other, and we’ve simply decided, as a society, to find them offensive. The sounds are not offensive (try saying “fuck” to a Russian who speaks no English and see if he is aghast) and the meanings are not offensive (in proper context “sex” and “copulation” don’t piss anyone off). But somehow “fuck” is bad to say? We arbitrarily decided somewhere along the line that it’s bad to say that word. I don’t hold to things that have no reason. Fuck is a fine word, with many uses, and it rolls off the tongue nicely.
Ever seen a Kevin Smith movie? Or The Big Lebowski? That’s how I talk. I don’t pay such language any special heed, going or coming, it is the content that matters most.
Of course, we have now wandered far, far afield of the topic at hand. Whatever our disagreements on language and sarcasm, all will be well. I’ll go back to lurking, won’t post again for another six months, and it won’t be an issue.
I think all comments about whether the 1999 speech is elitist need to go re-read it more carefully. It actually has an aside in the piece I quoted which specifically says “and gosh, this made me worry I was being elitist”…
This really isn’t about hardcor vs casual btw. The folks who play these SNS games are *hardcore* about them. How many games do the alleged “hardcore” play where you check in every four hours?
What is getting discussed here has more to do with the perceived depth of mechanics, perceived scope of the game, perceived minimum necessary threshold in terms of polish and sophistication, and so on. And that is also what my opera analogy drives at. Let me try to provide a different analogy…
Videogames started out as “folk art for nerds” — rough and crude graphics, limited by tech for sure, often highly creative and wacky, deeply tied to the culture. Their aesthetic was driven by the culture from which they arose, too.
Over time, they evolved in basically only a few ways. They got greater technical capabilities, which allowed both greater presentation capabilities and also broader gameplay (note, not necessarily DEEPER gameplay… you often don’t need tech for deeper that’s a design problem).
Second they got more elaborate — deeper — often in ways which made them harder to approach *even for the same culture they sprang from*. They just had a level of basic nerd-culture literacy that was required to be able to even play them.
They didn’t lose the trappings of the cultures from which they emerged though. Robots, sci fi, geeks, anime, militaristic fetishes, etc. The topics, the art styles, the settings, all of that, remained aimed at that group.
Now, geek culture has broadened a lot in terms of overall appeal. And games did open up to some new subcultures over time — sports being the earliest big “annexation” probably. But as recently a few years ago, the overall landscape could be neatly summarized as
“Games are too nerdy and too complex to reach new audiences.”
Today we have an explosion of aesthetics, topics, and much more, driven by a huge number of factors. It cannot be ignored that this goes hand in hand with
- broader aesthetic range
- far simpler interfaces
- many many games with near zero learning curves
Facebook games are just this. They are often surprisingly deep. There’s a lot of design sophistication to the ways in which they work with asynchronous social connectivity, something that the mainstream game industry hasn’t seriously tried doing since, uh… play-by-email maybe.
But in a very real sense, they are not “for you” if you are the kind of person who is a gaming sophisticate and craves the depth, cultural knowledge, and presentation of the games of the past.
What will happen over time is that this new audience will grow in sophistication. They already take for granted all of the elements of a farming game, for example. You can think of the farming game as equivalent to any other genre, and replete with design tropes that are exactly equivalent to conventions like WASD, hit points, skill point allocation, rocket jumping, and tank-nuker-healer, if you like.
All that is going to happen is a recapitulation of design history, only with a new of new assumptions embedded in the games:
- a far broader set of cultural references.
- a new and different set of core artistic choices driven by different rendering technology
- a fresh and exciting set of design paradigms built around asynchronous sociability and large-scale weak-tie “guild” structures — hoo, is there a design essay lurking in the difference between a guild and a neighbor ring…!
- a whole new set of business models and practices
Will folks who like the old way like the result, even after it goes through growing pains? A lot won’t. They are like opera fans who have to deal with the fact that the bulk of the music industry is into jazz, or jazz and swing fans who bemon the rise of big band, or big band fans who hate rock n roll, or… you get the idea.
The degree to which “opera” in this circumstance survives is driven entirely by whether the economics of it still make sense. Most critically, not in terms of whether the “old way” games can still make money, but whether the *opportunity cost* of doing them is too high.
Thought of another way to describe this, to harken back to a comment on the first page. The comment was made “aren’t MMOs movies and this stuff YouTube?” And the answer is no, not yet. More accurately, what we have is theater (mainstream games) followed by movies (SNS games and the like). Movies were looked down upon by everyone associated with theater. The acting was bad. the stories were puerile. All the sophistication was lost.
It was rebuilt over time, with a far larger audience. But just as importantly, film does things that theater cannot.
Am I, or Sid Meier, or brian Reynolds, or whoever, betraying theater, which gave us success, by going to a nascent Hollywood? Up to you theater fans.
I can stretch the analogy a bit too far, even, and say that my plays were often pretty movie-like in some critical ways. There is a lot more in common between SWG’s economic structure and Farmville than there is between SWG’s economy and WoW’s.
But as recently a few years ago, the overall landscape could be neatly summarized as
“Games are too nerdy and too complex to reach new audiences.”
I think what you ended up with was a cultural divergence.
There were a great deal of people who have started playing videos games preferring “folk art for nerds” and resentful you (or any other developer) is doing anything else.
Sure, not all games were for everybody, some were needlessly complex, but by and large this was video games and this is what we loved about them.
For you (or any other developer) to say “well, we’ve found this new audience now, and there’s sure a lot more of them than you, so soyanara” is nothing less than invalidating our fundamental beliefs, resulting in a serious insult, no matter how you try to get us to look at it.
Maybe you’re okay with this. Maybe you (or any other developer) is just trying to make a living, and you/they know (and are correct) that the folk art nerds aren’t where the most money is to be made. But said nerds are going to suddenly start liking things that they’ve never liked and never will like just because they’re less popular.
Some of this can be considered a category error. Many developers got into this because they loved the folk art for nerds aspect of it. But many others may have liked the underlying common aspects. If you love games, period, then there’s no reason to feel bad about spending time on board games, card games, designing a new sport, or doing casual games instead of hardcore games. Games are games! But if you love games as in specifically a certain TYPE of games, well, then, migrating between these is weird.
Honestly, for someone like me who started out programming on an 8 bit computer, web-games feel like home almost…!
One of the many ways a person makes their own misery is by expecting a person is something they’re not, and so if you prefer to make less “folk art for nerds” and more “games as in the artifact that is a game” then I honestly would hold any resentment more against myself than I would you.
However, as a person on a self-appointed quest to find more folk art for nerds, you’re not going to be able to help me by producing any. If any thing, I’m better off trying to roll my own.;
“Am I, or Sid Meier, or brian Reynolds, or whoever, betraying theater, which gave us success, by going to a nascent Hollywood? Up to you theater fans.”
Yes. (though betray is a stronger word than i’d have used)
But, you knew that and I expect you, et al to produce great things in the fb/social gamespace, and I’ll point and say “I read his book back when..” It would be a bit much to expect an avid theatregoer in 1920 to be happy about top-flight talent he respected leaving broadway for hollywood– as you note, in the early stages of the movies they were not on par with theatre, it took some years of refinement. (The rate these things change nowadays, I suppose that means that the fb equivalent of Planescape:Torment will be released next monday)
Raph :Thought of another way to describe this, to harken back to a comment on the first page. The comment was made “aren’t MMOs movies and this stuff YouTube?” And the answer is no, not yet. More accurately, what we have is theater (mainstream games) followed by movies (SNS games and the like). Movies were looked down upon by everyone associated with theater. The acting was bad. the stories were puerile. All the sophistication was lost.
It was probably a mistake i didn’t elaborate in my initial comment.
What i meant by the movies/youtube pairing was rather — one of these is built on model of consuming a carefully crafted large piece of entertainment, and this piece is expected to provide the whole experience to the viewer. In the other model on the other hand the quality and size of this “entertainment piece” becomes less important, and there’s instead additional aspect of ‘social experience’ (an act of sharing the pieces as well as the comments on them) … and this interaction itself is considered important to the point where it’s expected to be significant part of the overall experience.
In other words… the opera/movies analogy seems to suggest these (games) are one and the same thing, just using different technology and addressed to two different target groups which will happily condescend on each other based on their preference. My point was, a better analogy should perhaps acknowledge that while there’s some similarities on the surface, the two things which are being compared are in fact different enough that someone can consider them not to be one and the same without any “snobbery” involved.
Really? You think there’s no relatively larger focus on social connections in games made for what’s basically a platform for said social connections, and for audience which is likely to use the said platform in the first place because they’re interested in these social connections?
So the trend continues. It’s been said many times that since UO, the MMO industry has taken more and more away from us with each new release. Now we’re all the way back to something strange.
We lost more and more “worldly” game play.
Now we’re back to what looks like the simplest form of “worldly” in Farmville and the like (including the MetaPlace stand-in). Veyr narrow, very simple, but very focused on a “worldly” pattern.
These games will grow and evolve. Get bigger and more complex. It’s like sandbox games based on worldly had to restart at the ameba stage.
Why? Because the ever inflationary (in several ways) level grind games cannot sustain themselves for the long haul. They are “been there done that”. It’s showing now as gamers aren’t buying the new versions enough to maintain the profit expectations. The collapse is imminent.
Maybe this is a good thing.
But us old timers aren’t too happy. We’re ahead of the pulse, waiting for things to be rebuilt from the ground up.
I think it all has to do with the developers. MMO developers grew up on single player games, until recently. So they made MMORPGs more and more like single player games. This new breed, coming in and making new stuff, simulations, more “worldly”, but at the basic level.
It’s going to take time, and that’s the part us old timers regret.
Personally, I’d say I’ve already found the “old timer” solution. It’s not pretty, but it works.
1. Don’t expect big names in the industry to produce the “nerd folk alt” kind of games because, by and large, they’ve giant pocketbooks to support and have decided the best way to do so is to cast a wide net for the lowest common denominator.
Once in a great while, a big name company will put out a game that’s not just a cash grab, but it’s so rare that I can boil it down under a half-dozen titles a year. So, knowing that this is the case, don’t pay a dime for the kind of games you’re not interested in.
You have an alternative: pay more attention to the indies. Spiderweb software, Moonpod, Introversion, and 1001 other little-known companies which enjoy creating compelling games instead of popular ones. If you want to see more of those kinds of games, vote with your dollars, support these guys.
2. Learn to “roll your own.” Seriously.
Frankly, if you’re so very impassioned to find truly interesting “geek folk art” games, and the frequency of the alternative is a perpetual frustration to you (as it is for me), then channel that frustration into trying to make your own.
It’s not so impossible. From Flash to my current choice of poison, a little known 2D-tile based online game platform called BYOND, there’s quite a few means out there for you to explore what a good game means to you by attempting to create one.
As you can see, I’m beyond sitting around on forums just bitching about it anymore.
Interesting. I think Facebook-style games will eventually give rise to the Third Age of MMOs (although the likes of Farmville are too primitive to be there yet):
The First Age: we grouped and socialised because we had to. The games were too unforgiving to solo (grind, downtime, class specialisation into roles). EQ and DAOC are both fine examples of this.
The Second Age: game designers realised that players wanted the option to solo if they couldn’t find a group (or just didn’t want to), and games became solo friendly for most of their content. Downtime is minimised, classes become more multi-functional, plentiful soloable quest content. Grouping becomes less efficient than soloing, and players only group for specific objectives. This is the age of WoW.
The Third Age: we start to realise that it’s actually fun to be social, and games that are designed to support a communal experience take hold. Game design takes a “carrot” approach (making grouping easier and more enjoyable) instead of the first age’s “stick” (find a group or you might as well log off and watch a DVD for the evening instead).
tomp: certainly there is, but those same social connections were straining to occur under the old model (and happened at smaller scales). There is now an enabling platform wrapped around them, but I don’t think it is qualitatively different in terms of audience impulses… similarly, there’s more features to take advantage of them, but again, most of what has happened is a reduction in *friction* which leads, perhaps to a different overall experience, but not to fundamental changes in what the audience sought. IMHO, anyway.
Hick in Ohio, great way to put it!
Geldon, don’t forget that your friends at metaplace are currently in that indie bucket! Go play Island Life!
Tremayne: a comment that has been made to me is that UO and SWG were almost Facebook games out of synch with time. And if you had seen the design I did post-SWG that never got made… well, it was even more so, though again, predating Facebook games.
Raph’s completely right about one thing: Many of you complaining he sold out sound literally exactly like the hardcore crowd who complained about how UO was just a lite beer version of a good text MUD.
Raph :
Am I, or Sid Meier, or brian Reynolds, or whoever, betraying theater, which gave us success, by going to a nascent Hollywood? Up to you theater fans.
You look at it as going from theater to film. A lot of people see it as Michelangelo deciding to paint velvet Elvises or dogs playing poker.
Geldon, don’t forget that your friends at metaplace are currently in that indie bucket! Go play Island Life!
Maybe I would … if I ever bothered to register for Facebook.
You look at it as going from theater to film. A lot of people see it as Michelangelo deciding to paint velvet Elvises or dogs playing poker.
Michelangelo had the benefit in that, all the way up until post-modernism caught on, there was this focus on trying to capture life in great and magnificent works.
Some time around when post-modernism caught on, between the horrors of war and the din of overpopulation, the definition what’s truly “good” became a very ambiguous thing indeed.
1. Raph and co. try to make a browser-based second life/habbo/IMVU.
2. Raph and co. fail to realize that you either need a decent game or an unhealthy focus on Pr0n to make the concept work.
3. Metaplace opens, and people find that the tools can only make bad 8-bit games, and that no pr0n exists.
4. Metaplace underwhelms. Folds.
5. Raph needs to work, and converts game engine to make facebook games. Game engine is pretty good for such, since most facebook games are crap, and Raph designs good engines.
6. Announcement of such. Due to people thinking UO and pre-NPE SWG are the gods of the internets game, horror.
7. Silly arguments and justifications ensue.
It’s not about nerd games versus AAA games at all. Facebook games are cheap to make, and can attract a large enough audience to make profitable despite being crap. We already see this in the Iphone market and the F2P one.
Raph has to satisfy investors and make money, so it’s a smart move, and tbh he can probably make a not-bad game using that engine. But trying to spin this as anything more is silly. Facebook games are the equivalent of bad Wii shovelware, and will have the same impact on the genre as it. Now and then someone may make a fun timewaster out of the sea of crap.
I think you people need to understand how many people traditionally classified as “not gamers” love this “shovelware”.
I’m always a little shocked at how many people people I know, including my mom for Pete’s sake, that would never think of playing WoW or SWG or UO but just love the heck out of little ole Farmville. They deck out their farms and plant things and never ever have to worry about if they have enough arp and other stats to switch to marksman or if they left one of their ore collectors neglected somewhere on Naboo.
It is a casual game that non traditional gamers love. Now don’t get me wrong, I love WoW, Dragon Age, and am positively DROOLING to get my hands on Mass Effect 2. But if you can’t see the appeal of Farmville to the masses you need to get off vent and go talk to some people in real life that you wouldn’t normally associate as being gamers.
Yeah, I get it. But casuals and nontraditionals have always flocked to whatever the latest fad game is. Facebook games are pure fad-they are poorly made grindathons with no real redeeming value to keep them aloft past the initial craze. Everyone owned a tamagotchi as well. Sega even made the VMU for their dreamcast based on it.
I know they love the games, but one day the fad is going to end. It did with Nintendogs for one, and that game is a good example of how a nontraditional game can sink into the waters of obscurity. Heck it did even with pokemon, and even the clones stopped after the initial craze.
Raph:
I’ll bet you a pizza that in two to four years facebook games will be a memory, and people will look at them like how we look at full-motion video games now or those plug and play dedicated TV consoles. “People played that?”
By all means good luck at making your game, and I hope you make enough money at it to recoup losses and come out of it okay. I just disagree with the point, and i’ve seen tons of fads fail to influence people or the industry despite being targeted at traditional or non-casual gamers.
I think you are underestimating the long term viability of these types of games. None of the games you mention were played by my mom, for example, or most of the people I referred to as non traditional gamers. I think the games you mention were big kid fad games, with maybe some splash from other groups. But facebook apps are bringing a lot of adults that would never think of playing nintendos or pokemon.
Yeah… a key demographic for the farming games is women aged 40-50, for example.
But Dblade, the point isn’t about farming games. The point is about the distribution channel. Here’s the mantra to wrap your head around it: Facebook is a CONSOLE. More specifically, it’s what Xbox Live/PSN wishes it were.
Sure, the first games on a console tend to suck. And sure, there will likely be a better console after Facebook. But the point is that the genie is out of the bottle. Something will replace Farmville — likely, something more to your taste, even! And something will be the Colecovision to Facebook’s 2600. But the market is here to stay.
Thanks for saying what I was trying to say better than I could ever say it.
@ Dblade
Things like Pokemon live on in other ways. Creature handlers in SWG for example. (Damn you, NGE, damn you!) Or my hunter in WoW.
Lim the saberooth tiger, Shellshock the turtle, Monsoon the gorilla can easily be Pichchoo or whatever that guys name is.
about 7 months ago
I guess all the VCs who were drawn to the hand-wavey “clone WoW, make millions!” business model are moving on to the next big thing: “clone Farmville, make millions!”
As a gamer, the WoW clone phenomenon was frustrating, since it seemed to completely stifle any innovation in a genre I really love. This time, though… I just don’t see any redeeming quality in facebook games, and I’m already feeling preemptive schadenfreude at the wave of failures I’m certain will wash ashore over the few years.
But… when I see guys like Sid Meier and Raph Koster chasing what I think of as a completely bogus genre, I start to question my instincts. Could I be… wrong about this? Is there something worth looking at here after all? This can’t REALLY be the future of gaming?
Can it?
about 7 months ago
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/31/scamville-the-social-gaming-ecosystem-of-hell/
and
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/11/01/how-to-spam-facebook-like-a-pro-an-insiders-confession/
Just about cover what it takes to put a truly profitable game on Facebook.
about 7 months ago
Jeremy: yes, you could be wrong about this.
Farmville is the most popular game in HISTORY.
Facebook is the Atari 2600. Expect it to matter more, not less.
AAA gaming is opera: high end stuff for a nichey group of snob fanatics, dwindling away. Get used to it.
What’s more, I have been saying this for YEARS. I didn’t expect this to be the exact manifestation, but here it is.
about 7 months ago
I wonder when people are going to stop saying “is this really the future?” and take the blindfolds off and realize that in fact, it’s not only the future but also the present.
For every person who says “MMOs aren’t evolving”, there is a new multiplayer game evolving. Whether or not people open up their eyes and see it is a whole different story…..
about 7 months ago
I think it’s a good call. It’s clear there’s a lot more users on Facebook to stumble across and give your game a try than would stumble across you on random_internet_game_website_92341.
Plus, it suits the demographic of the game a bit better, I think.
Actually, assuming the kids are still into MySpace (I get the feeling a lot may have moved on by now) that might be an even better demographic to hook.
about 7 months ago
BTW, I don’t like hearing this…
But damned if it isn’t true.
It might not even be that it’s “dwindling away,” per say. It might just be that since gaming went mainstream there’s been so much shallow mainstream-focused crap piled atop the opera that it’s hard to find the maestros beneath the din of boy bands.
If you look at the indy scene, or even learn to roll your own, you might be reasonably satisfied. But, as far as mainstream gaming is concerned, AAA it is not. X-COMs and Deus Ex’s making way for Cooking Mamas and Madden XXIV.
about 7 months ago
“AAA gaming is opera: high end stuff for a nichey group of snob fanatics, dwindling away. Get used to it.”
Pretty disappointing to see that sentiment coming from you, Raph. I was sincerely unaware that enjoying my particular hobby over the past couple decades made me a snob.
It’s amazing to me how game developers will gladly piss all over those who have provided them with a living for so many years at the hint of a possible new fad / gold mine that can be exploited.
about 7 months ago
Raph: You sell AAA gaming short by comparing it to opera. No other type of gaming outsells AAA games. Modern Warfare 2 is already above $1 billion in revenue. WoW is far beyond that. That’s comparable to the very biggest mainstream movies, like Avatar or Star Wars, not opera.
–matt
about 7 months ago
today’s interesting nerd analogy:
total music yearly revenue: $6.5 billion
total classical music yearly revenue: $78 million
total gaming yearly revenue: $45 billion
aaa gaming yearly revenue: ?
m3mnoch.
about 7 months ago
You, do know that Island Life doesn’t do anything, right?
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/raptor_87/islandlife.png
(repeat for as many hours as you leave the tab open)
about 7 months ago
If face book is the Atari 2600, which game is going to be the ET?
And most popular game in HISTORY? I’d love to see the numbers/definition that justifies that hyperbole. Surely not most popular in terms of “would the average person on the street know this game?”
From http://boardgames.about.com/od/monopolyfaq/f/copies_sold.htm, hasbro claims to have sold 250 million copies of Monopoly and estimates 500 million have played it.
Facebook claims, http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?statistics, to have over 350 million active users. Thus would seem impossible for Farmville to be more popular in terms of “number of people who have played it”.
If we restrict the field to computer games, my best guess for an easy competitor would be minesweeper/windows solitaire, but I have no idea how to get an estimate of that playerbase.
Not that I disagree with your premise that the modern idea of “Video Game” == “FPS” is referring to an opera-like niche. But I might rather say that it is a “Disaster Movie”-like niche. I think it will retain good numbers, but in the long run will be seen as a minor-genre rather than the be-all of the field.
about 7 months ago
damn. that should be $780 million for classical music…
m3mnoch.
about 7 months ago
We are working on that issue right now. It’s occurring for some people in some browsers.
Thanks for the heads up!
about 7 months ago
I could run the easy ratio calculation on that and come up with a number, but what good would it do me? Its like pointing at World of Warcraft’s 10+ millions of subscribers and calling EverQuest’s 550k a “failure.”
The thing you’ve got to remember about classical music is that it’s still around, hundreds of years later, long after we’ve largely forgotten the Bojangles.
The people who still make classical music won’t get paid as much as those who have managed to force a boy band down to throat of the majority of America, but that’s fine with them because they have a completely different motivation: they want to make excellence, not money — well, insofar as they’ve able to survive on what they do make.
So when Raph it was, “dwindling away” he was perhaps exaggerating, or more likely (like anyone who appreciates AAA titles) bemoaning obvious injustices.
about 7 months ago
Wow, thanks Ralph, for calling pretty much all the readers of this site snobs. My esteem of you just went down a notch.
about 7 months ago
Make that several notches, it was pretty high, now not so much.
about 7 months ago
How else should I react to “a completely bogus genre” and “no redeeming qualities”? That IS snobbery.
Look, I am not saying that everyone who plays AAA is a snob. After all, I play those games myself.
So I apologize. I called you and others something that you are not.
But you can’t deny there IS a lot of snobbery around this issue, just as there is around Flash gaming, or Wii games.
about 7 months ago
What I don’t get is why people are offended at being characterized as highbrow opera snobs. From my viewpoint, Raph was merely accusing you of having taste :>
Snobbery is a mental shortcut to dismiss out of hand those things you are unlikely to enjoy anyways. If your tastes are sufficiently cultivated, the logic goes, there is no point wasting the finite hours you have on this planet with $2 wine. Sure, this does mean you’ll miss the occasional gem, but you can also take some comfort that such gems will eventually be identified and be rebottled at $50 for your enjoyment.
Now, clearly, if your goal is to maximize money, rather than enjoyment, snobbery is a very dangerous set of blinders. After all, this disjunction between prices is precisely where you can get into the rebottling business.
Personally, I’ve never been able to use any Facebook App because I refuse to run an app that claims it needs to access all my personal information to operate when, clearly, it does not need that sort of access.
about 7 months ago
Nothing wrong with Facebook games… just as long as they aren’t Amway/Pyramid schemes that REQUIRE me to friend a bunch of people (either by roping in my friends or friending a bunch of complete strangers) just to unlock aspects of play.
about 7 months ago
It’s mostly a matter of perspective, really.
If you are into casually accessible games and apparently if you are developing for said games, you probably would look at these people as exhibiting snobbish behavior.
On other hand, if you are one of these people, you’re getting pretty damn frustrated how hard it is to find a game with deep, satisfying mechanics when it’s easier to produce for the casuals (who outnumber these people so greatly this is apparently a more profitable model) that you would respond to these accusations with all the appeal of somebody telling you it’s wrong to have standards.
about 7 months ago
I prefer what would probably be classified as AAA games (WoW currently, but just about everything else under the sun from UO onwards), but I’d never dismiss a genre/style of gaming as crap just because I don’t enjoy it.
To each their own I guess is what I’m saying. Just because we (playing the collective card) enjoy the AAA type games that doesn’t make us any better than the millions of players who enjoy browser games, or in this case Facebook games.
Raph, just do us all a favor. Get the rights to UO and do it over again, with a more modern engine. Please.
about 7 months ago
My question is: is Metaplace now making FB games… or are you using this to do something like illustrate how you can use the tech you’ve created to allow other people to make FB games (and somehow monetize that)?
Because while Farmville et al are staggeringly popular and commercially successful, I’m a bit surprised to see such a completely derivative game coming from your shop, Raph. And I think there are valid questions to be asked about the commercial viability of yet-another of the type of games flooding Facebook already.
So if this is a stealth tech/biz demo, terrific! If this is the new direction of Metaplace as developer of games we’ve already seen… well like I said, I’m surprised.
As to those who for whatever reason don’t believe accessible, more casual, free browser-based games are huge business, or that to succeed in it you have to “do every horrible thing in the book” (a quote that will not and should not go away), I think the time for that argument is over. This market has arrived, even for those businesses with ethics. PC-retail and console games are stumbling. EA estimates free online games will outsell console games in the next few years. The revenues in free-to-play are clearly there, and they’re broad based. If this isn’t games as you’ve known them, well, get ready for a change. Sticking your head in the sand won’t keep it away.
about 7 months ago
I don’t take any issue with the “snob” label, it’s a reasonably fair description. I used harsh language and I stand by what I said, although I should emphasize that while I see nothing of interest in any of these games (at least, not yet), I’m aware that millions of people would disagree, and I’m not going to tell them that they’re wrong.
Looking at it a little more objectively – and not only as a snob who simply doesn’t value the sort of experience available from Facebook games – I have plenty of reason to wonder whether Facebook gaming is really “it” from a business perspective. Farmville is a success, but is there room for more than a few players in this market? How many Farmvilles can there really be? How do you compete with such a dominant player? Do you clone and extend (difficult, given the massive social inertia)? If not, do you try to create something completely different, with more depth? If so, how much complexity and depth will this market really tolerate? All of us snobs will still be off playing WoW and other traditional games, remember.
I kind of wonder if it’s already too late, if Zynga has already set in stone its dominance. Of course I’m sure it’s relatively easy to become a financially viable niche player in the Facebook game market, since the barriers to entry are so much lower than in traditional games. But then, is “financially viable niche player” what facebook game developers and their backers are really hoping for when they see Zynga’s meteoric ascension?
about 7 months ago
Ah, well, we’re now into more interesting questions. I think the analyses by Tahdg Kelly on Gamasutra, by Daniel James on his blog, and by David Edery on his are all worth reading, for example.
As far as the future of AAA, I think it boils down to “less of them” and “the bar ever higher” which go hand in hand. But that isn’t a new story, I have been saying that for years now, and nobody has ever liked the message, and yet it keeps coming truer every year. hell, *I* don’t like the message. I first used the opera analogy in a speech over a year ago.
But the fact is that just about nobody can make Uncharted 2, just like just about nobody can make WoW… and core gamers (some of them anyway) are calling this year a disappointment? Brace yourselves, it is going to get MUCH worse.
about 7 months ago
Personally, a gamer and a fledgling Indy, I’ve been going back to fundamentals. I don’t think that it’s so much “the bar is even higher” so much as where we’ve decided to set it.
Of course, the whole story behind that is that the more I go back to fundamentals, the more I see that much of this ground has already been tread and what we see today is perhaps a natural progression.
However, I can’t shake the feeling that there were many forks on that path, and many paths less traveled that could lead to potentially lucrative results.
about 7 months ago
“I have been saying that for years” *only just now makes a facebook game*
It’s hard to hate raph when really, this is just a grab for money. He kinda needs it. Although I doubt he’ll find the mega riches in facebook of all places, he stands a chance at a steady revenue. I’m chalking up his hate against the real gaming industry as bitterness.
about 7 months ago
Freakazoid, if you don’t believe me, you can go look at all the speeches and whatnot archived on my site. *shrug*
As far as why didn’t I do one sooner? Well, I WAS doing something else, as you know.
about 7 months ago
I thjnk there may be a little bitterness there, but mostly it was just a reaction, probably to a lot more than just this blog.
But I think Koster’s right, I think we’ll see our “AAA” games pushing their honed experience of Diku right off the edge of the cliff, and then simply shutting it down and moving to other sorts of game.
We’ll never see another UO, unless an investor comes from outside the current industry and happens to hook up with someone whose got “the vision” and the talent to put it together. Not likely, but as they say…”that’s why they play the games”.
about 7 months ago
Raph wrote, “But the fact is that just about nobody can make Uncharted 2, just like just about nobody can make WoW”
That’s true. Similarly, only one developer can make Farmville what it is. The rest of the pack can try to clone it (or, in the case of the island farming sub-genre, can try to clone Meteor Games’ Island Paradise, who reskinned Farmville, who cloned Farmtown), but so the closest anyone ELSE has gotten to a farm game in terms of popular is almost a magnitude away from Farmville.
How’s that different from AAA, where you have one or two leaders in the fantasy MMO genre, in the FPS genre, the music game genre, etc and then a whole bunch of derivatives? Genuine question.
–matt
about 7 months ago
AAA isn’t going anywhere since it is by definition whatever the biggest, shiniest, and costliest upper segment of the market is. It will always be there since it’s a relative turn. At the same time, the upward spiral on budgets simply cannot be sustained. Something has to give and so that has to begin to plateau. So next years AAA might look a lot like this years AAA as the rate of improvement shifts from being constrained almost solely by technology and towards being constrained by organizational and budgetary concerns. It’s been heading slowly in that direction for a while now and the rate is accelerating.
I can’t say I’m a big fan of the opera analogy. Opera was and is a fairly static art form. It has been dismissed by the population at large because it has not changed, we’re still watching the same operas now that we did 100s of years ago. Games on the other hand, even AAA games, are always different year after year. They tend to evolve in most cases, revolutions happen seldomly, especially when you’re talking about years of development time 8 figure budgets. But still they change, they adapt, and they remain relevant to a significant number of people. A portion of the population that has continued to grow numerically even if it has shrunk proportionally.
Facebook games and their ilk do not seem to be the end all be all direction of things to come though. We all grew up on games, we’re all early adopters here, we’re used to having our feet wet. Simple games at first since that’s all that technology would allow but as those limitations were gradually removed we flowed into more complex offerings no longer satisfied with simpler fare. The 100s of millions of people playing Farmville right now on the other hand just got shoved into the pool. Over the last decade due to the sudden, to them, penetration of computers and the internet into their daily lives they find themselves in a potentially very deep pool without knowing how to swim. Is it any wonder that the vast majority of them head straight for the shallow end? But that doesn’t mean that they’re going to stay there. The Facebook crowd is going to tire of the trite offerings being thrust their way currently and move on to more substantial fare, eventually.
about 7 months ago
It’s different in at least one key aspect: it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to make a bad clone of Farmville than it is to make a bad clone of WoW (or Second Life). You can afford to throw a LOT more crap at the Facebook wall hoping something sticks before you run out of money and the VCs come by to rip the copper out of your walls.
But here’s the thing I keep coming back to: if it’s that much easier to make games, then games become commodities that much more rapidly, and competition moves that much more quickly.
about 7 months ago
JeremyT wrote, “it’s a hell of a lot cheaper to make a bad clone of Farmville than it is to make a bad clone of WoW (or Second Life)”
That’s why I wrote that only one developer can make Farmville what it is. Most or nearly all devs that could produce Farmville as a product couldn’t turn it into a 73 million person-per-month game. So far, it’s exactly 1 developer that’s been able to do that. The craft here is in the business side of the operation (marketing, business model, etc) rather than the creative side of the operation.
That’ll probably change over time, but we’re aways from it yet I think. There’s a large new audience that has never really, demographically, been gamers before. There’s a lot of assumed knowledge, experience, and tropes that we gamers have built in that we take for granted. It’ll take time for the rest of the population to partly catch up (most of them will never be interested in games the way many of us are).
about 7 months ago
Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say AAA gaming is the movies, while the web game stuff is YouTube?
about 7 months ago
Okay, but it depends on your definition of success. Why 73M? A few months ago no game had that number of players — and a few months before that 50M was stratospheric, and before that 20M was. IMO what matters here is commercial success (or design success, but that’s much more elusive). 73M isn’t the mark; whatever creates a sustainable, profitable business is — and that’s a much lower, much more attainable mark.
To your earlier question:
The key differences: orders of magnitude lower cost of development and marketing, much greater breadth of the channel (see the iPhone for the new narrow-channel), and overall an increased probability of maintaining a sustained business.
At 20c ARPU on casual browser games (a number that is sure to rise, especially given where it is on free-to-play MMOs), you need about 500K MAU to have about $100K revenues per month — enough to sustain a small studio. (and of course that’s on a single game, but we’ll assume one game for now; the picture gets even better when you release a second or third).
According to Appdata, the top 20 games on FB all have 8M MAU or more (so roughly revenues of $1.6M per month — that’s already a different world from AAA games, whether box or online). In addition, right now the top 132 games on FB all have at least 500K MAU — that number grows every month.
While some are no doubt monetizing better than others, with those numbers any of these 100+ games could be supporting a small self-sustaining studio (without, note, any investment at the VC level with the pressures it brings). This is entirely different from the hit-driven AAA games industry as we’ve known it, and shows the truth of the long fat tail. How many independent studios make a sustainable business in AAA games? I’m pretty sure it’s nowhere near 100.
The other interesting thing about this is that of the more than 100 games that have 500K MAU or more, few are ones any of us have likely heard of: Willy’s Sweet Shop, Quiztastic, Flying Dog, Bite Me, and, as they say, many many more.
The sum of this is, new online games — social games, FB games, and others — are as different from AAA games for developers and publishers as they are for consumers. And I believe this change is only just getting started.
about 7 months ago
I’m all for measuring by financial success rather than comparatively, Mike. It doesn’t much matter to me how my competitors are doing as long as I’m doing ok.
I was just challenging Raph’s claim that AAA games were different because just about only one dev can make Uncharted 2 or WoW. There are many other AAA games that are profitable without being Uncharted 2 or WoW.
As for Farmville – they have spent millions and millions in promotion building it to 73 million users. I consider that just as much a part of building the product/service as paying the programmers. Yes, that is still an order of magnitude, at least, less than something like Modern Warfare 2, but then, the revenue and income from Farmville is at least a magnitude less than Modern Warfare 2 as well.
I agree that Facebook currently offers a better opportunity for small studios but then, that’s not what Raph was talking about. He was comparing the biggest game in the social genre to the biggest games in the AAA genre……and they don’t look that different in the sense that both can be made into what it is by only one or two devs in the world (in Farmville’s case only 1 – others are trying with flat-out clones and not coming anywhere near to Farmville’s success).
Yes, a ton of Facebook games can support a small, self-sustaining studio, but I don’t think that’s “the future of games” either. As you say, hardly anyone’s heard of something like Willy’s Sweet Shop, which says to me that it’s probably not the future of gaming. If you’re going to point at Facebook and say “future of gaming because Farmville is the most popular game ever” then I think you can’t look at games that have 1/100th as many players and put them in the same category any more than you can look at, say, Earth Eternal and put it in the same category as WoW.
In other words, while Farmville may be the most popular video game in history (not sure that’s true, but willing to accept it for the sake of argument), its success is as virtually singular as that of WoW’s or Modern Warfare 2′s. There are many differences between FB games and AAA games, but the fact that only one or two studios can make the biggest game around is not one of those differences.
about 7 months ago
There seems to be some ambiguity by what’s meant by “AAA gaming.”
Maybe that’s mostly me: It’s fairly clear that what’s meant by a triple-A title in industry terms is a big-budget blockbuster, but when I heard it being related to snobbery, here I thought what was being referred to was deep, meaningful games… which, by and large, the average triple-A title is not.
Gaming snobs/people with high standards would generally snub Madden or World of Warcraft on the grounds that they’re so highly derivative. Well, okay, dragging WoW into that is perhaps going a little too far – it did manage to do EverQuest significantly better than EverQuest by simply streamlining it into a good product.
Anywho, I don’t think the line is so clearly drawn between games that exploit social networking and AAA titles. Indeed, they’re completely different tangents.
about 7 months ago
I’m happy enough to think of Facebook games as a new genre of games, but one that I’m completely uninterested in as a player.
I also find it hard to believe that Raph and others (Brian Reynolds is also working on Facebook stuff) really dig making Facebook games. I’m sure the lure of the money is exciting, but I can’t believe that the guy behind UO and SWG really loves Farmville and wants to make games like that.
about 7 months ago
Matt, agreed that comparisons between AAA and online social games are sort of apples and oranges. OTOH, both bear on the future of how games are developed and consumed. There, I suspect there’s not a singular answer: high-budget, high-risk games will continue to be made and consumed, as will low-budget, small-team games.
What I see overall is that there are more small teams succeeding today (whether or not we’ve heard of them) than ever before — and thus, by population numbers if nothing else, such teams are (a significant part of) the present and future of game development. At least until the cultural and technological landscape changes again as it has multiple times over the past thirty years or so.
In other words, the existence of Farmville doesn’t make Facebook as a platform significant. Farmville is a predictable outlier (not the game itself, but that one game will garner a singular number of players). What’s significant to me is instead the overall body of games on Facebook as a whole, and the shape of the usage curve: there are well over a hundred games that are likely pulling in commercially significant revenue, rather than a revenue curve where only the top 5 or so AAA games make sustainable revenues.
Most of those smaller games were made by tiny teams with equally tiny budgets. And yet they have access to a potential player base measuring in the hundreds of millions. That is a significant change in the rules of commercial success in developing games: you no longer have to be (or even compete head-to-head against) EA — or even Zynga — to be commercially successful on a sustainable scale.
about 7 months ago
Don’t look at the Farmville-class of games as the future: they’re the past. What you’re seeing in play right now is like looking in a rear-view mirror. Online games, whether on FB or on the web, are moving from that kind of game, not toward it.
about 7 months ago
[quote]I’m sure the lure of the money is exciting, but I can’t believe that the guy behind UO and SWG really loves Farmville and wants to make games like that.[/quote]
Agreed. It all seems a bit disingenuous — like a Michelin-starred chef deciding to run a hamburger stand.
about 7 months ago
It probably had more to do with the investors than him. But we’ll probably never know, he seems to be behind the ideas pretty strongly. And I doubt he’d feel right about saying otherwise.
about 7 months ago
That may be, but I’m not convinced that newer kinds of games will prosper the way Farmville has. I think the Facebook masses want really simple games. Very easy to understand, very easy to play, and not time-consuming unless you want to be obsessive, and a social element to help them go viral.
about 7 months ago
I have bought pretty much every p2p MMo thats been released in the last 10 years, and at least gave them a try .
But 1 thing I wont do is support f2p or facebook type games in any form.
It seems like these types of games are absolutely made for the lowest common denominator and self absorbed types. Yes that market is bigger than the AAA type market but seriously, is the grab for cash that appealing? Its a gigantic step down from being a dev of UO to being a facebook one.
Its like the movie “Idiocracy” is not really a movie after all. Its a giant friggin crystal ball.
about 7 months ago
“Facebook is the Atari 2600. Expect it to matter more, not less”
No, Facebook is the newfangled mall center that everyone is hanging out in. Farmville is a guy who had the foresight to put neat little candy vending machines in the mall and is making good money with low overhead. You are the guy that’s yelling that the mall is going to make restaurants obsolete.
about 7 months ago
“…seriously, is the grab for cash that appealing?”
LOL
about 7 months ago
Ever heard the phrase, The pursuit of money is the root of all evil? Did my statement in the form of a question stump ya?
about 7 months ago
Despite all the posts dissecting Raph’s opera comparison, I still don’t know what to make of it. What I know is that it bothers me. Why exactly? Because we know Raph’s pedigree and legacy, and it’s as though he grabbed all of it and dropped it in the trash can. Not a bad thing in itself; it takes quite a fair amount of cojones to finally admit, after years of work on one subject, that your time might have been better spent elsewhere, and it’s folly to cling to, say, a theory, model, etc. that has clearly been disproved purely because you happened to formulate it. But what bothers me here is how casually Raph places it in the trash, only to embrace something else that promises to be the next big thing — which may or may not be true.
If anything, Raph is a pioneer of MMO’s, back when it was cool and niche, and when developers were still sailing on uncharted oceans without really knowing what they were unleashing. But something seems to have happened in that decade or so that saw the evolution of MMO’s from the niche to the stultifyingly mainstream: the sense of exploration, discovery, and tinkering has vanished. You’re just copying what the other guy is doing because he is successful, and rising budgets for games means you can’t risk being innovative.
And the problem with pioneers is that they are looked at with suspicion when they are too successful in remaining in the industry they started. Pioneers are expected to be “rolling over in their grave” over what they have started, or if they happen to still be alive, they must look upon it with a mix of horror and regret, better still if they express their guilt publicly. If they try to remain a major player in an industry that has succeeded financially but otherwise gone downhill, poetic justice dictates that their failure must provide the industry at large with a proper cautionary tale about the loss of its roots (that is to be promptly forgotten by all concerned anyway).
Raph’s eagerness to forgo the niche period of his industry to which he contributed, only to pursue ventures where the lowest common denominator can be found nowadays (not even that of WoW, which can’t be beaten on its own terms) is what makes it difficult for me to accept his dismissal of AAA titles as “snobbery” — he had no qualms with being in this industry when MMO’s were niche and for the tech version of snobs, but now he derides their direct descendents as still catering to a snob niche. It’s like MMO’s with subscriptions, WoW notwithstanding, never entered the mainstream, and somehow I’d agree, considering WoW got its popularity from the Blizzard fanboys and the rest are pretty much niche, but nowhere near the levels of snobbery involved when internet games were new (all these years, I have kept a news clipping of a poll from 1996, where 85% of respondents said they had never been on the internet). But it’s somehow not right to work in a genuinely snobbish industry before 2000 only to denounce it as such a decade later, especially when you’re moving closer to where the masses are to be found.
Geldon is right, by the way: AAA game titles aren’t opera, they’re Hollywood blockbusters; however, unlike blockbusters, they are still niche in a way, as they require you to have all the trappings of the gamer, beginning with a proper computer, to play them.
about 7 months ago
I wonder why it even matters. “We” have our AAA titles, and “they” have their Facebook games.
about 7 months ago
Such a shame. I had really high hopes for Metaplace when I was beta testing it. They had some great ideas at the start, but they couldn’t seem to nail the execution.
It would be sad to see them end up as simple Farmville cloners.
about 7 months ago
Personally, I’d say it’s neither. Academically (and a trapped student is naught but a hopeless academic) facebook is looked at as a whole new entity: a social networking site.
Discard it as little more than a crappy console everybody has before something better came along, or as a mere commercial venue, and you discard all the things that academics find so exciting about it.
Facebook (and social networking sites like it) is relatively cutting edge (insofar as anything a few years old is cutting edge in technology) offering levels of interaction that may mirror innovations before it, such as the invention of the telephone.
Attaching a game onto that, lamprey-like, was Farmville’s trick. If Raph can master the knack for doing the same, perhaps his next trick will be giving Ultima a second (well, lets face it, early STO was the second, this would be at least the third) run.
about 7 months ago
“Ever heard the phrase, The pursuit of money is the root of all evil?”
No. The phrase is, “the love of money is the root of all evil.”
No commercial game has ever been made that was not made in the pursuit of money.
about 7 months ago
Way too much to respond to, and I am short on time. First — there’s some confusion over what I am referencing as “AAA”… most of the traditional game industry isn’t AAA, not even most of the boxed products. So I am referencing top of the line productions.
As to what i think about mass market or dumbing down, I refer you all to this speech from 1999:
http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/futuredev.shtml
“The consumers that are the future of our genre are everyday, ordinary people. Most of us in this technology-mad industry frankly have no contact with them. The technology we need to develop isn’t the technology of more polygons or better 3d sound or more accurate simulations. It’s the technology of people. Of giving them what they don’t know they need.
“I spent last Christmas holidays in Ohio, with my father’s side of the family. An architect, a teacher of disabled children, an ex-firefighter who now sells bathtub linings. They had many questions for me-they wanted to know if I was proud of what I did, and how I felt about videogames allegedly driving disturbed youths to acts of insane violence.
“And boy, I longed to make a game for them. Because I knew that I could get them interested in an online game that personally touched them, that made them have a greater awareness of the world around them (for in my technologically savvy big city mind, I suspect I saw them as provincial in some ways. I don’t feel too proud of myself for feeling that way, either). An online game that connected them with people they wouldn’t have otherwise interacted with. That maybe didn’t have a single dragon or spaceship in it. A game-let’s be frank-an Internet-that is woven into the fabric of their lives. I know it can be done, and I also know that it’s not online backgammon. ”
Niches live within niches. UO was mass market *of its day, for what could be reached at that time.* And today it is a niche within a niche. people forget that it (and EQ, etc) were considered to be a dumbed-down version of what had reached a much higher level of sophistication in text.
The analogy to Atari 2600 is a lot deeper than many of you are thinking of. Facebook is now a console. Extend that analogy *completely*. Currency. Preferred developers. In-house publishing. Advertising models.
But also technology races, improvements in rendering, gradually deepening complexity as usres grow in sophistication, abandoned genres, submarkets, market gluts… all of that too.
Matt, yes, Farmville’s success is singular — the Pong, Space Invaders, or Pac-Man of its day. The point under the opera analogy has more to do with the underlying economics of the market segment versus that of AAA gaming; and the implicit audience limitations of one segment versus another.
about 7 months ago
Technically speaking, you could have skipped or dropped whatever you were doing to pursue your opinion. I don’t think you were confident enough in your opinion to pursue a facebook game at the time. Oh, but now that someone’s found the right gaming structure for you? You’re all over that shit.
about 7 months ago
Actually… I am still totally a believer in the long term validity of the Metaplace concept and approach. So yes, I could have jumped tracks. But as a believer, I wanted to see it through as far as I could. We did actually even try out MP on Facebook in the process.
about 7 months ago
So according to you Raph and your speech, the genre is headed in the right direction. Can you honestly…honestly say that the games released in the last few years, be it MMO or facebook or whatever are quality products? From core to crust, have the last few years been years of quality?
I challenge you sir to show me that the current trend of making games for those casual ordinary people has furthered the genre in any positive way other than milking stupid people every way possible.
about 7 months ago
There are at least 2 positive aspects. First is that the social interconnectedness inherent in Facebook, and Web 2.0 in general, is being really harnessed for games. It’s not my cup of tea at all but it has expanded the craft. Second and more importantly is that it has massively increased the user base. Just as WoW expanded the MMO market to new heights, Facebook and Farmville have expanded the video game playing market. For some of these people Farmville, and similar games that we look on as simplistic and trite, are as deep as they’re ever likely to go. But for a good percentage of them it’s just a jumping off point. A few years from now droves of Farmville players are going to want the next best thing and every cycle of that the next best thing to them will come more and more like the next best thing to us.
about 7 months ago
They said the same thing about WoW, how WoW’s subscriber numbers were going to provide some sort of Golden Age for the MMO industry as a whole. Those subscribers were to migrate to more in-depth, complicated games that more fit their play-style. It was the Great Draw to the MMO world, who’s bounty would diffuse to the various niches of the industry.
I don’t see a huge boost from Facebook games. I see dozens if not hundreds of various companies tripping over themselves to capitalize on the same market segment.
As opera snob gamers what should truly worry you is that the next step is to take Farmville but find some way to dumb it down or simplify it to an even greater degree in a mad chase for the Holy Casual Gamer.
about 7 months ago
“Casual gamers”, we need to define these kinds of terms better. I’m much more casual than the heavy powergamers that dominate the elite status of MMORPGs, but I’m also into depth, much more depth that the current games give us. I might be a tenth degree powergamer.
WoW did bring in a lot of new gamers to the MMO scene. Unfortunately, when they got tired of WoW and started looking something different, all they found were clones in game play. They already leveled…*why!!*
I’ve got to agree with Innoe’s sentiments.
Not only that, but these games are enabling smarter players to take money from the not so smart. In effect, these games are selling poker chips and the players are playing for them.
I’m not arguing the rights of these game makers to do this, or the rights of some players to part other players from their money. “A fool and his money are soon parted” is a price we pay for freedom. But this involves the young too, and it does seem more than a tad bit contemptible, in my opinion.
about 7 months ago
A better analogy might be cars. I don’t think anyone would argue that all cars should be Lamborghinis. The average gamer doesn’t need 40 hours of story and cutting edge graphics any more than the average driver needs a supercar.
You’ll note that in this analogy, I’m not calling core gamers snobs or suggesting that core games are going away. I don’t think anyone’s quit WoW for Farmville any more than someone would trade in their Ferrari for a Civic just because the Civic is newer or more popular. It’s a big market, there’s lots of room for everyone.
about 7 months ago
BTW raph, my intent is not to attack you. As a member of the genre who was there when it started and has stayed and supported it thru the years, it pains me to see where its headed. Its this poor quality, mad grab for cash, 0 challenge thinking that is forcing me to give up a hobby I have spent most of my adult life doing.
The current template for making games in the genre is just…wrong.
about 7 months ago
Your words are very similar to what many said when the genre moved from the online services to the Internet… or from text to graphics.
FWIW, i agree the current template for the genre is wrong and limiting. Ironically, these social games actually offer hope that there’s an audience out there that wants something other than tank-nuker-healer combat!
Phrased another way… UO and yes, even SWG, in a lot of ways sound a lot like what Facebook games could become in their current evolutionary path.
about 7 months ago
What about those of us who want the tank nuker healer combat?
about 7 months ago
I suspect that it will live on in games of smaller scale. It’s a proven mechanic after all.
But tank-nuker-healer is part of the problem, IMHO.
about 7 months ago
The high fantasy mindset rooted in Pen and Paper DnD is the bigger problem.
about 7 months ago
Raph, I think this desire to reach out to “ordinary people” is short-sighted, especially if the way to reach out to “ordinary people” is through Facebook and such.
Caveat: Perhaps that is because I don’t use Facebook myself, but I never saw the appeal of it, so I suspect there are people out there with computers who never bothered with Myspace, and now won’t have anything to do with Facebook. People like me whom your game will never reach, and who will express bewilderment at the success of all those online networking sites. Presumably, they’re people who will never play online games, and maybe I’m in a minority.
I can understand why some people who played UO or SWG now feel betrayed by your latest foray into the casual market; we’ve seen the same thing when Nintendo went after the family market instead of the dyed-in-the-wool gamer demographic, which in Nintendo’s case was pretty ironic, considering they had a considerable role in the creation of this gamer market they were now abandoning. Nintendo just refused to age with the demographic that made it the success it was. Will that turn out to have been a smart thing to do? I don’t know, but it seems to be serving them well now.
But in your case, I think you’re too eager to abandon the line where you made your most significant contributions, for something that is unproven and may yet prove to be fool’s gold. I’m definitely not one of those “old schoolers” who still dream of those glorious pre-Trammel UO days, but I share some of their preoccupations: that the sandbox model is out, except for small projects without the imprimatur of a major studio (A Tale in the Desert, Wurm Online, Haven & Hearth, etc), that the mainstream is turning into a WoW-styled theme park in which skill or intelligence is out, and which is really a single player game with a chatbox. It’s probably pointless to try to compete with Blizzard (never mind that it ruined fantasy as a genre, because even games with more cohesive and serious worlds — Age of Conan especially — will never able to compete with 11 million zombies), but the real problem is that you’re going for something even more superficial than WoW, a genre that caters to housewives on break, where things are never meant to be challenging, where time investment in the game is shunned, because you spurn the uber-hardcore for the uber-casual, and the collective effort for a single player run in parallel with a chatbox even worse than WoW. That is why your decision is particularly unpalatable: because you’re going in a direction that will kill MMO’s while actually saying that’s the way to go since 1999.
Your article from 1999 brings up so many red flags ten years later that I’m wondering why you should think it still matters today. That reference to “Blair Witch Project”, for example; you say it was a masterpiece of viral marketing, not a movie, but “an experience”. It was also crap. By the time the sequel came out just a year later, nobody was taking it seriously, and by then the franchise had outstayed its welcome. It was all fine when it seemed to be “the little indie production that could”, but when there was a $25 million budget for the marketing alone, it wasn’t exactly indie anymore, nor was it genuine word of mouth that made it. Instead, it was just the beginning of every viral marketing trend involving the internet; as such, Blair Witch Project has a place in history books, but not for the quality of the film. Interestingly, they’re trying to hawk a remake/sequel of it, but I don’t think there are enough people who don’t feel ashamed at having seen/liked the first film a decade ago to make any such venture successful.
If that’s the parallel with where you’re heading, then I guess you will be successful, but players will be sick of it in very short order, then they’ll despise it and, in the long term, hold your game as an example of all that was wrong with the era in which it came out.
That “folks in Ohio” barometer is also difficult to palate because, while I obviously don’t know the specific people you mention, they sound exactly like those who would shortly foist eight years of Bush upon the rest of the world. I’m not an Obama fan, but I’d be wary of asking them for anything at this point.
Also this part of your text: But folks, Johnny can’t read. Certainly not Johnny the console player. Not the Johnny I run into daily at work, the fourteen-year-old who thinks that the latest expression of hip-hop gangsta rap rage is just the coolest thing going down. I find it wonderful that there are muds out there that I can go to that give me areas based on Foucault. But Johnny doesn’t care. And I am in this to make money, after all. (Crass, I know). So if that’s to be an early indicator of your current pursuit of the lowest common denominator, so be it. Nothing to brag about, though.
about 7 months ago
I don’t think Raph is selling out, per se, so much as there’s a fine line between that and identifying where people’s interests are currently at and reacting accordingly.
You’re damned either way.
If you choose to support the casual market, you’re ignoring that casual players eventually become hardcore and demand something they can really get their teeth into.
If you go the route of supporting those who have been at gaming for decades you’re turning down a much bigger audience who just don’t get your game, won’t even try your game, and you end up with an extremely niche product.
Of course, if you’re smart, you do both. Like Blizzard did with World of Warcraft. They built the game to have a reasonably short, casually-accessible 50-level tutorial and then branched into a completely hardcore endgame at the end knowing that if you’ve played the game for 50 levels you’re no longer a casual player.
Raph knows games are learning experiences. It was the point of his book. The question is: what is your Facebook game teaching?
about 7 months ago
Then God bless the people you are talking about with disdain.
In 2008 the US secretly moved enough Yellowcake out of Iraq to make 100 nuclear bombs.
MSNBC Report
If you remember, Saddam had claimed that he had destroyed everything from his previous nuke plans. And the UN Weapons Inspectors agreed.
And later….
Citing the bold text, can you say “dirty bomb in a lead lined container on a ship in one of our harbors”?
You need to understand something. Our leaders do not tell us everything that goes on. One of the main reasons is to not scare the hell out of us.
about 7 months ago
Utter nonsense. The IAEA was perfectly aware of that yellowcake
“Following the 1991 Gulf War, the IAEA removed all known Iraqi stocks of nuclear material suitable for weapons use, in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 687. All other radioactive material, including uranium, was stored in sealed barrels at Tuwaitha and checked annually by the IAEA, under the terms of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The IAEA says that in December 2002, 500 tonnes of “yellowcake” and 1.8 tonnes of low-enriched uranium remained at Tuwaitha, and hundreds of other highly radioactive, industrial sources were still in the country. ”
http://www.greenpeace.org/mediterranean/campaigns/nuclear-free-middle-east/war-on-iraq/the-tuwaitha-nuclear-research
about 7 months ago
Yes they did, Arkenor. And so did everyone who matters, all around the world. And so did the Democrats who voted for the war with Iraq. The rest is all politics, and few people in the general public were told about it.
about 7 months ago
I’m an mmo snob but my wife is a lumpenproletariat facebook gamer [Farmville].
I asked her to check out Island Life. Boy is she pissed at me….I tried to explain that it was a beta version. All she knows & cares is that it doesn’t work worth a damn. Thanks for the wife aggro Raph
about 7 months ago
@BuckeyeLife
I think you might have done more to prove Vetarnias’s point than to refute it there via the cockeyed interpretation you took of what he wrote.
about 7 months ago
Geldonyetich, I suppose it all depends on your outlook. It always surprises me that some people had such faith in Saddam’s goodwill.
about 7 months ago
So no more operas from Raph? That’s disappointing. I’m not interested in listening to boy bands, which I think is the other end of the analogy.
And I also will never play a Facebook game that rewards me by getting other players to play. That’s the equivalent to me of sending out chain letters, something else I never do. There’s something a bit smarmy and greasy-feeling about a game that is urging me to tell my friends about it and get them to sign up.
about 7 months ago
If AAA games are opera, FB games are disco.
about 7 months ago
Seriously, pretty much no MMO dev needs to be feeling any kind of guilt for their contribution in getting from UO to WoW and beyond.
Exploration, tinkering and discovery work best when you are among the first to really break out and be noticed. UO didn’t invent the MMO genre, but it is the first title to go really mainstream. A lot of things were tried in UO that historically turned out to be bad ideas, but when you are the first out there you get to make those mistakes.
Today, you don’t get the opportunity to make those mistakes – or that many new ones – before your game is written off by the MMO masses. Why? Because there are plenty of other options. If you want to go exploring, you need to try an indie MMO because that’s where things are being challenged, but you can’t expect polish and innovation to go hand-in-hand. For the most part, players want polish.
Are the MMO players who visit brokentoys.org MMO snobs? Hell yeah. Look at all those calling for a new UO, or mention Trammel, or comment on any other MMO touchpoint that is meaningful to an increasingly reduced proportion of the MMO player base. The opera comparison – yes, there are new operas but the same bet is to produce one of the classics – is very apt.
I’m a MMO snob too, but I do recognise the importance of social network titles, F2P, console-based MMOs and browser-based MMOs (hello Runescape, red-headed stepchild of the MMO industry) to the evolution of the genre.
All success to Raph on this venture.
about 7 months ago
The only mistakes UO made were coming up with the wrong answers to problems. For example, players used to go just insdie of a dungeon entrance and drop crates to create a barrier, sort of a defensive structure, and then range attack MOBs, easily killing them for loot. UO’s answer was to simply have MOBs destroy these barriers when they walked into them. So a fun new aspect of play was destroyed. They could have had the MOBs do damage to the crates and take a few attacks to destroy, one at a time. They could have added AI to MOBs to make them realize they were fighting a losing cause and run away, coming back to charge and retreat, random but weighted chances to “decide” what to do. In other words they could have fixed the problem instead of removing it, as with all problems.
about 7 months ago
Holy fucking shit, could you be anymore of a condescending cockhead? I submit that you could not. You shit on people from Ohio who you don’t even know, you shit on everyone who plays WoW, you shit on housewives, you people who liked The Blair Witch Project, and you shit on quote-unquote ordinary people. All in one short post that seems to think that it’s actually not being asinine. Amazing.
Oh glorious high and mighty Vetarnias, please bless us with more of your wisdom regarding why everything new and popular is terrible and how everything was much more awesome back when you were young and MMORPGs were underground and not something played by the unwashed zombie masses.
People like you make me glad people like Raph have politely told you to fuck off.
about 7 months ago
That’s the trouble with analogies, really. The further a term used from what was literally meant, the more wiggle room is available to completely misinterpret it.
It’s been my experience that most people will prefer their interpretations to your own which, while not something I can refute as their right, is also a complete failure to even attempt to communicate.
The concept Vetarnias is trying to get at it is that developing for a casual audience may, in itself, be chasing an illusion. Are any of us truly casual? Are any of us truly hardcore? Are not all of us human beings with the same overall capacity to learn and, consequently, get bored of a game which (in Raph’s assessment) are essentially objects which produce find while learning?
The deeper I get into game design, the more it seems that perspective is key. Indeed, when Io read Jesse Schnell’s “The Art Of Game Design” I was surprised to discover that he employs over 100 “lenses” throughout which are essentially just different ways of looking at a game.
I’d like to say you could develop a game with one lens, one purpose, e.g. the “casual game accessibility lens,” but it seems that wearing any one lens only gets you so far, and a game is only as deep as it is rich in perspectives it can support.
Farmville. Farmville. What lens are we wearing?
about 7 months ago
I’ll rather grind bots in Aion than be on Facebook and play stupid flash/web games.
about 7 months ago
Holy fucking shit, could you be anymore of a condescending cockhead? I submit that you could not. You shit on people from Ohio who you don’t even know, you shit on everyone who plays WoW, you shit on housewives, you people who liked The Blair Witch Project, and you shit on quote-unquote ordinary people. All in one short post that seems to think that it’s actually not being asinine. Amazing.
Oh glorious high and mighty Vetarnias, please bless us with more of your wisdom regarding why everything new and popular is terrible and how everything was much more awesome back when you were young and MMORPGs were underground and not something played by the unwashed zombie masses.
People like you make me glad people like Raph have politely told you to fuck off.
Wow, do you ever have a chip on your shoulder. The guy made a pretty cohesive and well structured comment and your rebuttal is nothing but spite, obscenities, and stupidity. Your childish antics using obscenities to get your point across shows your true character. You sir are typical of the type of person who has entered the genre thru games like wow and facebook and truly made it less than what it started out to be.
about 7 months ago
I see the quote didn’t work on my previous post.
about 7 months ago
Sort of a sign of the times that “cohesive and well structured” equals correctness.
Forget what the content was, he said it pretty?
about 7 months ago
Allow me to roll my eyes. I’m not even sure where to start with this one. There is no spite in my comment, nor was there stupidity, though there were obscenities. If you think obscenities equate to “childish antics” (it’s a freaking post, how can it even contain “antics”?) and that using them somehow says something about my “true character” (what the hell does that even mean?), then I think you’re the one who has maturity issues. But whatever.
I was not looking to rebut his argument, which I don’t really care about so much, as it were. What I was looking to do was exactly what I did, which was point out that he was being a ridiculously fucking condescending asshole. Did you even read the bits I quoted? I actually thought he was just trolling at first; it’s hard for me to imagine that someone can actually be so elitist.
To expand on this point – which, hey, maybe I should have done, though I simply too shocked at his post to really do anything more than say “holy shit you just said that” – let us take a look at Raph, who is more or less the center of this discussion, and his position. He has two primary audiences he can go for:
1) People like Vetarnias, the self proclaimed basis for his career and the genre and what have you. People who are elitist, condescending cockheads who don’t want their pristine and beautiful genre invaded by “zombies”, “housewives”, and, fucking worst of all, people from Ohio. Wait, worse yet! Republicans! Because we all fucking know how much political leaning has to do with video games. Wait, what?
2) The general masses of people who will happily play games and happily throw down a few bucks to support said games. The people who play Farmville, and (to a lesser extent) the people who play WoW.
Group 1 will hold your own success against you. Group 2 will not. Group 1 will loudly berate you for virtually every decision you make. Group 2 will not. Group 1 is small. Group 2 is not. Gee, which would you choose?
People like Vetarnias are killing their own cause. He’s the reason people like Raph don’t care about his business all that much anymore. And all of the reasons why, all the problems with the group he represents, are on display in that one post.
It is, truly, a stunning and succinct self-refutation.
And here we find out that you’re one of them too! Amazing. From just one post you can determine a great many things about me! Perhaps you should have a crime-solving show on major network television. I am not entirely sure, but it seems to me that you are assuming the following about me:
1) The I play MMORPGs
2) That I started with WoW and / or Facebook games
I am not sure you are saying that, so perhaps you could clarify for me, at which point I shall proceed to prove you as much full of shit as Vet. Until then, I withhold judgment. Except to say that you, too, would seemingly fancy yourself somehow better than all these goddamn zombies invading your beloved genre.
Let me repeat: your are killing yourself. The harder you thrash this transition of the genre from “hardcore” to “casual”, the more you speed it along. Ironic, I suppose?
Also, I would love a Preview function. Or an edit function. Alas.
about 7 months ago
@Cymbaline
For some reason, I seem to have struck a nerve, but I can’t really say why. I will, however, try to answer your points.
First, you seem to make a number of assumptions about me, especially about my gaming history and style. I would have been old enough to play UO when it launched in 1997, except that it would be two full years before I got a computer that could run it, not to mention internet access. My first computer dated back to c. 1996, but it was a secondhand 486DX running Win 3.1, without a modem. That was just before university, so I was using it mostly for text formatting, and I never bought any games for it.
So, you see, I was not one of those nerd types who started playing MUD’s while in school before moving on to MMO’s, nor did I own a new console after my teenage years. For that matter, I don’t think I’ve ever owned more than a dozen cartridges for any console.
The first time I heard of UO was on one of those late-nineties TV shows that were eagerly discussing everything about that newfangled thing called the internet with wonder and excitement, but it was before I had internet access. I finally tried UO in the late Second Age period, but I did not stay beyond the trial month. My internet connection was too unstable, and my experiences in the game did not convince me it was worth giving my credit card information.
After that, it took me until 2006 – that’s seven years, if you bother with such things – to return to MMO’s, and then only to stuff I could play for free. Runescape, Puzzle Pirates, etc. The first MMO I actually paid a subscription for was Pirates of the Burning Sea, January 2008. In other words, for the time MMO’s “were underground and not played by the unwashed”, and for a long time afterwards, I was not playing them. I’m not of the “old school”, because I don’t have the pedigree for it.
I’m also not that much of a “hardcore gamer”, as in always seeking out new games, because I can’t afford to change/upgrade computers, so my own history of buying computers has been in waves of 4 years on average. The last one dates back to 2007, so I’m way past the crest. It’s one of the reasons I’m not expecting to play any of the major releases of 2010.
Why does this “casual” discussion bother me? Because, incapable of playing most new games as I am, I fear I might be pigeonholed into those “casuals” while the term (as Geldon said) just seems to be a label for something that doesn’t really exist, but was created in a boardroom somewhere. When I’m talking about “housewives”, I’m not doing it in derision of housewives, but because it seems to be what boardroom types have in mind when they mention the “casual” demographic – that and legions of Uncle Rays who have yet to be exposed to the wonders of the internet, in 1999 or today.
I am talking in clichés because the very notion of “casual” (or hardcore, etc) is based on a string of clichés, with one aim, and the lowest of all: to sell. Left to the marketing consultants, all those housewives and Uncle Rays stop being independent-minded people with their own individual tastes and preferences to become “casual”, and I object to this just as I objected to much of the way traditional gamers are thought of, based on game advertising: Koster’s “Johnny”, more or less, 14 and dumb.
Same thing with that “folks in Ohio” thing. Maybe they would like traditional gaming, but can’t afford it. Maybe they want nothing to do with gaming at all. Maybe, like me, they don’t see a point in Facebook and therefore can’t play Farmville (red flag here: can’t play Farmville without logging in to Facebook; games should stand alone, not be a third-party appendix). But underneath it, I sense again the salesman’s pitch: they don’t know they want to play games, so we must sell the idea to them, like we did by selling a cell phone to every last person on the planet, even those who didn’t need one. Like selling refrigerators to Eskimos. And since they don’t know they want to play games, and because their time is limited, we must make it easy on them. Easy, familiar, and safe. Zero innovation, like summer comedies or romance novels.
What bothers me especially is that this discussion isn’t about gamecraft, and while the idea of games-as-art makes me suspicious, I want to hear about a loftier ideal than “whatever sells”. Because it’s the discussion of gamecraft which draws me here, not the marketing of games.
about 7 months ago
Oh, and it was only after posting that I noticed Cymbaline had posted again. You seem to make much of those “zombies”, in the context of WoW. If someone likes WoW, I have no problem with it. But I have a problem with those who are bored of the game, say so every chance they get, but keep on paying Actiblizzard its $15. If they want to stop playing but can’t, it’s called addiction, but I’ve seen too many WoW fanboys – who are no worse than other fanboys in themselves, except that they can muster a much larger crowd – treat the matter lightly while throwing the 11 million figure around every time they get. I see plenty I don’t like about WoW, and I’d gladly shrug it off, but I can’t do it if everyone else starts copying it every chance they get. My real problem with WoW isn’t with the game itself – which is rather well done for what it is – but with what it has come to represent: a model for the entire mainstream industry.
On the other hand, I’m not one of those elitists you decry. I tend to be a purist in some things – I still yearn for roleplaying in MMO’s, and I won’t use voice chat, both of which make me a pariah with hardcore elitists (but I’m hardly a roleplaying elitist). Sandboxes bother me when they’re used for griefing at the expense of everything else (I despised EVE), but I welcome the opportunities they offer to players. Come to think of it, I don’t really belong in any main category of players; if that makes me an elitist, I guess I’ll have to live with it.
about 7 months ago
@cymbaline
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong point. Hence why I said you are the “type of person”. Regardless of my views on MMO’s, your post and even your blog is a jumbled mess and comes off as being spewed with a “trailer trash” mentality.
I did see tho that in your second post you toned the obscenities down a notch so that you might be taken more seriously.
@Hick
Yea I misused the word pretty.
about 7 months ago
Well enough, and all, but there’s no way for me to infer that from your original “WoW zombies” sentence. Which goes back to my original point, really – maybe you’re not an elitist, maybe you don’t hate people from Ohio, etc., but that post that I first quoted certainly makes it seem so. If you’re not elitist, I’d be wary of coming off as such, particularly when one of the guys who presumably has some power to address your issues is hovering around the edges.
And yes, I am aware there is a certain degree of irony in that.
You said “type of person”, and I read that, which is why I said:
Additionally, if you think that it comes off as being “trailer trash mentality”, whatever the fuck that means, you must live in a very strange world indeed. But hey, your life, not mine.
“I am not sure you are saying that, so perhaps you could clarify for me, at which point I shall proceed to prove you as much full of shit as Vet. Until then, I withhold judgment.”
Shit! I guess it’s your reading comprehension that fails! Ain’t that a bitch. My condolences. Also, neither my post nor my blog are a jumbled mess. You’re wrong. Again. Sorry.
What, am I on a fucking curse word quota? If I used less curse words, it’s because I felt like using less curse words. It has nothing to do with anything else. If you don’t take someone seriously because they use curse words, you’re the one who fails, not me. Sorry. They’re words. Just words. Get over it. Also: fuck.
about 7 months ago
Thanks for proving my point for me.
about 7 months ago
On all the forums /
Nobody reads anymore /
Bitching is more fun.
about 7 months ago
@ cymbaline
I thought about my last post and decided to put this to you another way.
Your untitled to your opinion as are we all. I would just like to see you do it without all the obscenities and sarcasm. I dont know about anyone else but, I come here to read the blog but more importantly, the comments from some of the best ( in my mind ) people in the industry. I would just rather not have to read thru obscenities to get to the point.
about 7 months ago
Such is your prerogative, but I honestly don’t understand why. Really. Sarcasm is delightful, and I have no problems with curse words. All things in moderation, as ceaseless sarcasm gets old, as does fucking saying fuck every-fucking-other fucking word. But I don’t think I’ve done either in excess. Naturally, all things are relative.
Seriously, though, I’ve had this conversation plenty of times over the years, because I cuss a lot, and lots of people hate cuss words. I’ve yet to understand why. They’re words, just like any other, and we’ve simply decided, as a society, to find them offensive. The sounds are not offensive (try saying “fuck” to a Russian who speaks no English and see if he is aghast) and the meanings are not offensive (in proper context “sex” and “copulation” don’t piss anyone off). But somehow “fuck” is bad to say? We arbitrarily decided somewhere along the line that it’s bad to say that word. I don’t hold to things that have no reason. Fuck is a fine word, with many uses, and it rolls off the tongue nicely.
Ever seen a Kevin Smith movie? Or The Big Lebowski? That’s how I talk. I don’t pay such language any special heed, going or coming, it is the content that matters most.
Of course, we have now wandered far, far afield of the topic at hand. Whatever our disagreements on language and sarcasm, all will be well. I’ll go back to lurking, won’t post again for another six months, and it won’t be an issue.
about 7 months ago
Wow. How did the politics creep into this debate?
I think all comments about whether the 1999 speech is elitist need to go re-read it more carefully. It actually has an aside in the piece I quoted which specifically says “and gosh, this made me worry I was being elitist”…
This really isn’t about hardcor vs casual btw. The folks who play these SNS games are *hardcore* about them. How many games do the alleged “hardcore” play where you check in every four hours?
What is getting discussed here has more to do with the perceived depth of mechanics, perceived scope of the game, perceived minimum necessary threshold in terms of polish and sophistication, and so on. And that is also what my opera analogy drives at. Let me try to provide a different analogy…
Videogames started out as “folk art for nerds” — rough and crude graphics, limited by tech for sure, often highly creative and wacky, deeply tied to the culture. Their aesthetic was driven by the culture from which they arose, too.
Over time, they evolved in basically only a few ways. They got greater technical capabilities, which allowed both greater presentation capabilities and also broader gameplay (note, not necessarily DEEPER gameplay… you often don’t need tech for deeper that’s a design problem).
Second they got more elaborate — deeper — often in ways which made them harder to approach *even for the same culture they sprang from*. They just had a level of basic nerd-culture literacy that was required to be able to even play them.
They didn’t lose the trappings of the cultures from which they emerged though. Robots, sci fi, geeks, anime, militaristic fetishes, etc. The topics, the art styles, the settings, all of that, remained aimed at that group.
Now, geek culture has broadened a lot in terms of overall appeal. And games did open up to some new subcultures over time — sports being the earliest big “annexation” probably. But as recently a few years ago, the overall landscape could be neatly summarized as
“Games are too nerdy and too complex to reach new audiences.”
Today we have an explosion of aesthetics, topics, and much more, driven by a huge number of factors. It cannot be ignored that this goes hand in hand with
- broader aesthetic range
- far simpler interfaces
- many many games with near zero learning curves
Facebook games are just this. They are often surprisingly deep. There’s a lot of design sophistication to the ways in which they work with asynchronous social connectivity, something that the mainstream game industry hasn’t seriously tried doing since, uh… play-by-email maybe.
But in a very real sense, they are not “for you” if you are the kind of person who is a gaming sophisticate and craves the depth, cultural knowledge, and presentation of the games of the past.
What will happen over time is that this new audience will grow in sophistication. They already take for granted all of the elements of a farming game, for example. You can think of the farming game as equivalent to any other genre, and replete with design tropes that are exactly equivalent to conventions like WASD, hit points, skill point allocation, rocket jumping, and tank-nuker-healer, if you like.
All that is going to happen is a recapitulation of design history, only with a new of new assumptions embedded in the games:
- a far broader set of cultural references.
- a new and different set of core artistic choices driven by different rendering technology
- a fresh and exciting set of design paradigms built around asynchronous sociability and large-scale weak-tie “guild” structures — hoo, is there a design essay lurking in the difference between a guild and a neighbor ring…!
- a whole new set of business models and practices
Will folks who like the old way like the result, even after it goes through growing pains? A lot won’t. They are like opera fans who have to deal with the fact that the bulk of the music industry is into jazz, or jazz and swing fans who bemon the rise of big band, or big band fans who hate rock n roll, or… you get the idea.
The degree to which “opera” in this circumstance survives is driven entirely by whether the economics of it still make sense. Most critically, not in terms of whether the “old way” games can still make money, but whether the *opportunity cost* of doing them is too high.
about 7 months ago
Thought of another way to describe this, to harken back to a comment on the first page. The comment was made “aren’t MMOs movies and this stuff YouTube?” And the answer is no, not yet. More accurately, what we have is theater (mainstream games) followed by movies (SNS games and the like). Movies were looked down upon by everyone associated with theater. The acting was bad. the stories were puerile. All the sophistication was lost.
It was rebuilt over time, with a far larger audience. But just as importantly, film does things that theater cannot.
Am I, or Sid Meier, or brian Reynolds, or whoever, betraying theater, which gave us success, by going to a nascent Hollywood? Up to you theater fans.
I can stretch the analogy a bit too far, even, and say that my plays were often pretty movie-like in some critical ways. There is a lot more in common between SWG’s economic structure and Farmville than there is between SWG’s economy and WoW’s.
about 7 months ago
I think what you ended up with was a cultural divergence.
There were a great deal of people who have started playing videos games preferring “folk art for nerds” and resentful you (or any other developer) is doing anything else.
Sure, not all games were for everybody, some were needlessly complex, but by and large this was video games and this is what we loved about them.
For you (or any other developer) to say “well, we’ve found this new audience now, and there’s sure a lot more of them than you, so soyanara” is nothing less than invalidating our fundamental beliefs, resulting in a serious insult, no matter how you try to get us to look at it.
Maybe you’re okay with this. Maybe you (or any other developer) is just trying to make a living, and you/they know (and are correct) that the folk art nerds aren’t where the most money is to be made. But said nerds are going to suddenly start liking things that they’ve never liked and never will like just because they’re less popular.
about 7 months ago
You proofread. You post. You facepalm over what you missed when proofreading. You lament the lack of an edit button.
about 7 months ago
Some of this can be considered a category error. Many developers got into this because they loved the folk art for nerds aspect of it. But many others may have liked the underlying common aspects. If you love games, period, then there’s no reason to feel bad about spending time on board games, card games, designing a new sport, or doing casual games instead of hardcore games. Games are games! But if you love games as in specifically a certain TYPE of games, well, then, migrating between these is weird.
Honestly, for someone like me who started out programming on an 8 bit computer, web-games feel like home almost…!
about 7 months ago
One of the many ways a person makes their own misery is by expecting a person is something they’re not, and so if you prefer to make less “folk art for nerds” and more “games as in the artifact that is a game” then I honestly would hold any resentment more against myself than I would you.
However, as a person on a self-appointed quest to find more folk art for nerds, you’re not going to be able to help me by producing any. If any thing, I’m better off trying to roll my own.;
about 7 months ago
“Am I, or Sid Meier, or brian Reynolds, or whoever, betraying theater, which gave us success, by going to a nascent Hollywood? Up to you theater fans.”
Yes. (though betray is a stronger word than i’d have used)
But, you knew that and I expect you, et al to produce great things in the fb/social gamespace, and I’ll point and say “I read his book back when..”
It would be a bit much to expect an avid theatregoer in 1920 to be happy about top-flight talent he respected leaving broadway for hollywood– as you note, in the early stages of the movies they were not on par with theatre, it took some years of refinement. (The rate these things change nowadays, I suppose that means that the fb equivalent of Planescape:Torment will be released next monday)
-TF
about 7 months ago
It was probably a mistake i didn’t elaborate in my initial comment.
What i meant by the movies/youtube pairing was rather — one of these is built on model of consuming a carefully crafted large piece of entertainment, and this piece is expected to provide the whole experience to the viewer. In the other model on the other hand the quality and size of this “entertainment piece” becomes less important, and there’s instead additional aspect of ‘social experience’ (an act of sharing the pieces as well as the comments on them) … and this interaction itself is considered important to the point where it’s expected to be significant part of the overall experience.
In other words… the opera/movies analogy seems to suggest these (games) are one and the same thing, just using different technology and addressed to two different target groups which will happily condescend on each other based on their preference. My point was, a better analogy should perhaps acknowledge that while there’s some similarities on the surface, the two things which are being compared are in fact different enough that someone can consider them not to be one and the same without any “snobbery” involved.
about 7 months ago
Well, except i don’t think they ARE qualitatively different in the way you describe.
about 7 months ago
Really? You think there’s no relatively larger focus on social connections in games made for what’s basically a platform for said social connections, and for audience which is likely to use the said platform in the first place because they’re interested in these social connections?
about 7 months ago
So the trend continues. It’s been said many times that since UO, the MMO industry has taken more and more away from us with each new release. Now we’re all the way back to something strange.
We lost more and more “worldly” game play.
Now we’re back to what looks like the simplest form of “worldly” in Farmville and the like (including the MetaPlace stand-in). Veyr narrow, very simple, but very focused on a “worldly” pattern.
These games will grow and evolve. Get bigger and more complex. It’s like sandbox games based on worldly had to restart at the ameba stage.
Why? Because the ever inflationary (in several ways) level grind games cannot sustain themselves for the long haul. They are “been there done that”. It’s showing now as gamers aren’t buying the new versions enough to maintain the profit expectations. The collapse is imminent.
Maybe this is a good thing.
But us old timers aren’t too happy. We’re ahead of the pulse, waiting for things to be rebuilt from the ground up.
I think it all has to do with the developers. MMO developers grew up on single player games, until recently. So they made MMORPGs more and more like single player games. This new breed, coming in and making new stuff, simulations, more “worldly”, but at the basic level.
It’s going to take time, and that’s the part us old timers regret.
about 7 months ago
Personally, I’d say I’ve already found the “old timer” solution. It’s not pretty, but it works.
1. Don’t expect big names in the industry to produce the “nerd folk alt” kind of games because, by and large, they’ve giant pocketbooks to support and have decided the best way to do so is to cast a wide net for the lowest common denominator.
Once in a great while, a big name company will put out a game that’s not just a cash grab, but it’s so rare that I can boil it down under a half-dozen titles a year. So, knowing that this is the case, don’t pay a dime for the kind of games you’re not interested in.
You have an alternative: pay more attention to the indies. Spiderweb software, Moonpod, Introversion, and 1001 other little-known companies which enjoy creating compelling games instead of popular ones. If you want to see more of those kinds of games, vote with your dollars, support these guys.
2. Learn to “roll your own.” Seriously.
Frankly, if you’re so very impassioned to find truly interesting “geek folk art” games, and the frequency of the alternative is a perpetual frustration to you (as it is for me), then channel that frustration into trying to make your own.
It’s not so impossible. From Flash to my current choice of poison, a little known 2D-tile based online game platform called BYOND, there’s quite a few means out there for you to explore what a good game means to you by attempting to create one.
As you can see, I’m beyond sitting around on forums just bitching about it anymore.
about 7 months ago
Interesting. I think Facebook-style games will eventually give rise to the Third Age of MMOs (although the likes of Farmville are too primitive to be there yet):
The First Age: we grouped and socialised because we had to. The games were too unforgiving to solo (grind, downtime, class specialisation into roles). EQ and DAOC are both fine examples of this.
The Second Age: game designers realised that players wanted the option to solo if they couldn’t find a group (or just didn’t want to), and games became solo friendly for most of their content. Downtime is minimised, classes become more multi-functional, plentiful soloable quest content. Grouping becomes less efficient than soloing, and players only group for specific objectives. This is the age of WoW.
The Third Age: we start to realise that it’s actually fun to be social, and games that are designed to support a communal experience take hold. Game design takes a “carrot” approach (making grouping easier and more enjoyable) instead of the first age’s “stick” (find a group or you might as well log off and watch a DVD for the evening instead).
about 7 months ago
tomp: certainly there is, but those same social connections were straining to occur under the old model (and happened at smaller scales). There is now an enabling platform wrapped around them, but I don’t think it is qualitatively different in terms of audience impulses… similarly, there’s more features to take advantage of them, but again, most of what has happened is a reduction in *friction* which leads, perhaps to a different overall experience, but not to fundamental changes in what the audience sought. IMHO, anyway.
Hick in Ohio, great way to put it!
Geldon, don’t forget that your friends at metaplace are currently in that indie bucket!
Go play Island Life!
Tremayne: a comment that has been made to me is that UO and SWG were almost Facebook games out of synch with time. And if you had seen the design I did post-SWG that never got made… well, it was even more so, though again, predating Facebook games.
about 7 months ago
Raph’s completely right about one thing: Many of you complaining he sold out sound literally exactly like the hardcore crowd who complained about how UO was just a lite beer version of a good text MUD.
about 7 months ago
You look at it as going from theater to film. A lot of people see it as Michelangelo deciding to paint velvet Elvises or dogs playing poker.
about 7 months ago
Maybe I would … if I ever bothered to register for Facebook.
Michelangelo had the benefit in that, all the way up until post-modernism caught on, there was this focus on trying to capture life in great and magnificent works.
Some time around when post-modernism caught on, between the horrors of war and the din of overpopulation, the definition what’s truly “good” became a very ambiguous thing indeed.
Now, for all we know, velvet Elvises or Andy Worhol Eats A Hamburger is the highest of art.
about 7 months ago
I love the over analyzing.
1. Raph and co. try to make a browser-based second life/habbo/IMVU.
2. Raph and co. fail to realize that you either need a decent game or an unhealthy focus on Pr0n to make the concept work.
3. Metaplace opens, and people find that the tools can only make bad 8-bit games, and that no pr0n exists.
4. Metaplace underwhelms. Folds.
5. Raph needs to work, and converts game engine to make facebook games. Game engine is pretty good for such, since most facebook games are crap, and Raph designs good engines.
6. Announcement of such. Due to people thinking UO and pre-NPE SWG are the gods of the internets game, horror.
7. Silly arguments and justifications ensue.
It’s not about nerd games versus AAA games at all. Facebook games are cheap to make, and can attract a large enough audience to make profitable despite being crap. We already see this in the Iphone market and the F2P one.
Raph has to satisfy investors and make money, so it’s a smart move, and tbh he can probably make a not-bad game using that engine. But trying to spin this as anything more is silly. Facebook games are the equivalent of bad Wii shovelware, and will have the same impact on the genre as it. Now and then someone may make a fun timewaster out of the sea of crap.
about 7 months ago
“People are wrong when they say opera is not what it used to be. It is what it used to be. That is what’s wrong with it.”
-Noel Coward
about 7 months ago
ooh, great quote!
“Facebook games are the equivalent of bad Wii shovelware, and will have the same impact on the genre as it.”
Dblade, you’re just completely, mindblowingly, staggeringly wrong on this part.
about 7 months ago
I think you people need to understand how many people traditionally classified as “not gamers” love this “shovelware”.
I’m always a little shocked at how many people people I know, including my mom for Pete’s sake, that would never think of playing WoW or SWG or UO but just love the heck out of little ole Farmville. They deck out their farms and plant things and never ever have to worry about if they have enough arp and other stats to switch to marksman or if they left one of their ore collectors neglected somewhere on Naboo.
It is a casual game that non traditional gamers love. Now don’t get me wrong, I love WoW, Dragon Age, and am positively DROOLING to get my hands on Mass Effect 2. But if you can’t see the appeal of Farmville to the masses you need to get off vent and go talk to some people in real life that you wouldn’t normally associate as being gamers.
Now I think
about 7 months ago
Jeff:
Yeah, I get it. But casuals and nontraditionals have always flocked to whatever the latest fad game is. Facebook games are pure fad-they are poorly made grindathons with no real redeeming value to keep them aloft past the initial craze. Everyone owned a tamagotchi as well. Sega even made the VMU for their dreamcast based on it.
I know they love the games, but one day the fad is going to end. It did with Nintendogs for one, and that game is a good example of how a nontraditional game can sink into the waters of obscurity. Heck it did even with pokemon, and even the clones stopped after the initial craze.
Raph:
I’ll bet you a pizza that in two to four years facebook games will be a memory, and people will look at them like how we look at full-motion video games now or those plug and play dedicated TV consoles. “People played that?”
By all means good luck at making your game, and I hope you make enough money at it to recoup losses and come out of it okay. I just disagree with the point, and i’ve seen tons of fads fail to influence people or the industry despite being targeted at traditional or non-casual gamers.
about 7 months ago
@Dblade:
I think you are underestimating the long term viability of these types of games. None of the games you mention were played by my mom, for example, or most of the people I referred to as non traditional gamers. I think the games you mention were big kid fad games, with maybe some splash from other groups. But facebook apps are bringing a lot of adults that would never think of playing nintendos or pokemon.
about 7 months ago
Yeah… a key demographic for the farming games is women aged 40-50, for example.
But Dblade, the point isn’t about farming games. The point is about the distribution channel. Here’s the mantra to wrap your head around it: Facebook is a CONSOLE. More specifically, it’s what Xbox Live/PSN wishes it were.
Sure, the first games on a console tend to suck. And sure, there will likely be a better console after Facebook. But the point is that the genie is out of the bottle. Something will replace Farmville — likely, something more to your taste, even! And something will be the Colecovision to Facebook’s 2600. But the market is here to stay.
about 7 months ago
@ Raph
Thanks for saying what I was trying to say better than I could ever say it.
@ Dblade
Things like Pokemon live on in other ways. Creature handlers in SWG for example. (Damn you, NGE, damn you!) Or my hunter in WoW.
Lim the saberooth tiger, Shellshock the turtle, Monsoon the gorilla can easily be Pichchoo or whatever that guys name is.