No, really, it says it's unique right there and everything.
David Allen responds to criticism that his latest game, World of Alganon, may be just a wee bit derivative.
Players aren’t upset there’s a game that resembles WoW. They’re upset that for the past few years they’ve been bombarded and desensitized by a combination of “weak” games and advertising that sells them on the idea that “similar is bad.” When people say a movie that reminds them of their favorite film, but with a different plot, characters and setting, that means they enjoyed the movie. When you have a meal that reminds you of the home cooking you loved as a kid, that is a great thing. However, for the past few years, every MMOG released has spent millions of dollars trying to convince gamers that “fun doesn’t matter; different is what you want,” and for many gamers, this marketing worked.
Well, that’s certainly an interesting way to defend cloning. “No, really… we totally meant to do that.”
#1 by Stabs on November 15th, 2009
Bizarrely enough they clearly did mean to do that.
They could so easily have disguised the UI a bit. Changed some colours and fonts. Removed the Achievements and Keyring UI elements which serve no fuction in Alganon but which were lifted from WoW.
The only logical conclusion is that they actively wanted people to see the WoW interface.
Obviously WoW isn’t going to sue because the interface actually originated with Asheron’s Call 2 and no one is going to risk 20% of WoW’s lifetime profits for a chance at 20% of Alganon’s lifetime profits. Because if WoW did sue and win the rights-holders of AC2 would be able to file a claim with one hell of an effective precedent, a precedent created for them by Activision. Not gonna happen.
So they probably knew they were on safe legal grounds and have done this deliberately quite possibly to court the controvery and attention we’re giving them here.
Or possibly it’s because they have researched that most new MMO players give up in the first 12 hours feeling utterly bamboozled by the UI and this is their way around that.
#2 by The Claw on November 15th, 2009
This angle he’s trying would work a lot better if Alganon was in any way a good game. Obviously, when it comes to game design, “originality” has different value to different people. Trivially, if you’ve never seen or played WoW, you won’t care at all if Alganon shamelessly copies it. If you’ve played WoW, run out of things to do, and are looking for something similar, you won’t care either. But if you’ve played WoW, played Aion, played LOTRO, played EQ2, played every other Diku-derived race/class/level themepark.. then you’re going to get a mite testy at someone serving up a mediocre imitation and telling you you should like it because it’s just like mom’s home-cooked meatloaf.
#3 by Jormundgard on November 15th, 2009
Sounds to me that’s exactly what he’s saying: they did mean to make it do that, i.e. to look like WoW. It would be pretty miraculous if they perfectly copied it accidentally or subconsciously.
#4 by Stabs on November 15th, 2009
Reading a review of Allods on Massively was quite interesting in the context of this discussion.
Shawn notes gratefully that if you’ve played WoW, Warhammer or RoM you’ll be comfortable with the UI and complains in passing that they’ve not included one of the standard WoW clone UI elements.
In other words cloning WoW’s UI is good and failing to include everything (the minimap in this case) is annoying.
Truly players receive the games we wish for.
http://www.massively.com/2009/11/13/first-impressions-allods-online
#5 by Jackbnimble on November 15th, 2009
Note that people only look forward to enjoying a repeat of something if they enjoyed the original. So, if mom’s split pea soup sucked, it’s unlikely I’m going to enjoy something that reminds me of it.
Also people only enjoy a repeat if it’s a good repeat, something that’s like mom’s apple pie, but isn’t may not be worth my time even though it has apples, cinnamon, and a crust like mom’s pie did.
Basically, the guy fails at logic, his comparison is flawed.
#6 by heartlessgamer on November 15th, 2009
@Stabs
Huh? Originated with Asheron’s Call 2? No.
#7 by Tremayne on November 15th, 2009
LOTRO has a UI that’s clearly inspired by WoW. WAR has a UI that is clearly inspred by WoW. Alganon has one that is blatantly ripped off from WOW – not the same thing.
Best analogy for Mr Allen that I can come up with would be if I broke into your mom’s house in the dead of night, stole the contents of her freezer and then tried to sell them to you as “my own cooking, tastes just like what your mom makes!”
#8 by Mark Asher on November 15th, 2009
Other than giving us a chance at derision, does it really matter that the interface is a WoW lift? I’d rather play with a familiar UI so this issue doesn’t bother me.
What I’m worried about is the gameplay. That’s where I want something that feels fresh and not rehashed. Alganon gives me more concerns that way.
#9 by Axecleaver on November 15th, 2009
I found his market research insight a bit out there. It sounds kind of like the Ray Crock (McDonalds) argument at first – people want familiarity and consistency – which is true, but then it takes a bizarre left turn into “and the only reason why people would ever want innovation in their games is because evil marketing geniuses implanted that idea in their foolish heads.”
Consistency is more about the game being bug-free than it is copying design elements. Consistency is not an identical user interface and yellow exclamation points over quest givers’ heads. Consistency means certain core design elements of the genre are going to be part of your game – you’re going to have experience points and you get more by killing monsters. That is not the same as lifting Eve’s offline training mechanism or Wow’s UI.
#10 by Robin Kestrel on November 15th, 2009
So he says about his EVE-like “Studies” system (when asked if there isn’t going to be hard caps on improvements, what’s to prevent vets from always being able to annihilate newbs), that rapidly diminishing returns should close the gap between newbies and veteran players, especially where the newbie has better-managed his Studies versus the Veteran who has raised his Studies sloppily and/or spread himself too thin. But even so, he claims the difference in skills possible are not so huge as to make a significant difference in the wider scheme of things.
This tells me a couple things: one, that he has maybe not thought this through: considering that the Studies system is not complete, and they plan to add to it after launch, they are going to have to let people respec. If you can respec, you can choose the latest killer build, if you have the points for it. And most of the vet players will have been sure not to waste any accumulation of study time, I am sure. So vets are always going to be able to have the same Studies skillsets as newbs, and always deeper into the skill and therefore more powerful.
His waving this off as “not a big enough advantage to matter” is a little naive, and does not recognize that for a huge percent of his target audience, ANY advantage matters. The racial abilities in WoW, small as they were, matter greatly to players, to the point where they were mostly removed and toned down, and now continue to be balanced out. Both Horde and Alliance can pretty much field an identical character build, which is a must for PvP. And last I heard, Alganon planned to add PvP in the future.
#11 by Robin Kestrel on November 15th, 2009
Thinking more on the above, maybe he intends to have boosts gained via Studies affect PvE, but not PvP? Maybe have a different set of Studies for PvP.
Yeah, some things about this are mockable, but the guy seems to have a passion for gaming, and can put out interesting ideas. Whether he can ever get them to materialize in a working system, I don’t know. I wish him the best.
#12 by Bhagpuss on November 15th, 2009
David Allen claims “Most of the naysayers never played the game; they base their negative comments on assumptions they’ve made from playing other games, or reading forums, or looking at screenshots”, That argument falls down a bit when you realise that when the NDA dropped the huge majority of players who had been playing came out with highly critical, negative reviews. I was one of them.
There are people who like Alganon. They are, however, few and far between, but here’s one: http://aspendawn.blogspot.com/2009/10/alganon-beta-review.html
Indeed, I didn’t dislike Alganon. I preferred it in some ways to Runes of Magic. My issue was why anyone might think it was worth paying for, since it doesn’t seem to offer anything that umpteen F2P games don’t already give away for free. Oh, and it clearly needs another 6-12 months of work before it’s ready for release. Other than that it’s fine, if youwant a rather ugly-looking generic post-WoW fantasy MMO.
#13 by Zubon on November 15th, 2009
There was a David Allen interview (or was it the FAQ?) from 2006 saying basically, “we’re making a pretty decent DikuMUD/EQ/WoW knockoff that does some stuff differently.” They linked it on their main page way back when the game was going to be called “Crusade”; Internet Archive is down for maintenance, so I cannot find it just now. In this case, it is not ass-covering at the end: it really is meant to be derivative.
#14 by geldonyetich on November 15th, 2009
While it’s true that gamers are alienated by the unfamiliar (just try to get them to play something truly different and they’re likely to write it off as weird) in practice it seems to me that “familiarity breeds contempt” applies remarkably well to games.
It makes sense when you think of Raph Koster’s Theory of Fun. If you learn from games and get bored of them when you’ve learned all that game has the offer, simply repackaging the same lesson is a surefire plan to assure players have no interest in your game at all.
#15 by Pat on November 15th, 2009
And once again he ignores the fact that there is a useless button next to the bags for a feature that was only added to WoW as a half-assed fix for an inventory management problem.
But hey, as long as you ignore the details, you never have to respond to the actual concerns!
#16 by Abalieno on November 15th, 2009
Lol. But you’ve read what he said? That’s an impressive demonstration of a warped mind.
He said that all the games we had these years tried to be different and failed. Alganon is the REAL DIFFERENT GAME. Because it tries to be similar where all other games tried to be different.
#17 by Arkenor on November 15th, 2009
Will there ever again be an MMO released that isn’t either a WoW clone, an unfinished mess, or both?
I begin to worry.
#18 by EpicSquirt on November 16th, 2009
Well at leat they copied it properly, unlike Warhammer, where Mythic got even that wrong. So there is some chance for success.
#19 by yunk on November 16th, 2009
You know this makes me wonder why Blizzard doesn’t just create a middleware solution and market that. They probably would own the market. then sure, we’d have wow clones, but it might give a lot of companies a leg up on innovating new ideas (and of course 90% will be crap copies).
UPS does this, instead of trying to own the entire delivery market, they sell their software that plans truck routes. It is a gps device in each truck plus a server, and after plugging in the destinations it devises the most fuel efficient route for you. I’ve seen this software used to provide 40% in fuel cost savings. But that is a huge competative advantage UPS has, but instead of hoarding it they are selling it, to own the market before someone else does.
Blizzard might want to do the same thing, since it’s not likely another company will be able to compete, it takes more than a stable bug free platform to make a game, and there are certainly lots of small companies that would pay.
#20 by Doug on November 16th, 2009
“You know this makes me wonder why Blizzard doesn’t just create a middleware solution and market that. ”
Blizzard probably started work on just that in 1998, it will be announced in 2010 where it will be scheduled for released in 2017, but delays will push it to 2025.
Just like all the Diablos!
#21 by Sullee on November 16th, 2009
@Geldon
Except Raph understands and even explains that a lot of people enjoy the puzzles they already know the solutions to.
Your point is off though and I think Scott’s is way off too.
I’m not happy about people copying WoW UI (because it sucks!) but I know why they do it. It’s the same reason you can use a lot of the same key combinations in say a spreadsheet program from company A that you learned in a different spreadsheet program from company B: familiarity makes it easier to switch.
The truth of the matter is blizzard released that shitty UI which regresses the entire genre for the exact same reason people copy it now. It was to make WoW more familiar and comfortable to the diablo players. Because of that we are condemned to see the same circa 1997 crap over and over again.
Sure, they copied more than the UI. So does everyone else though. I personally could care less if other games are better at disguising it. Moreso the dumbasses who think they can do better and then push out utter shit (see WAR crafting system). If you are smart you pick your battles.
I haven’t played this game so don’t misconstrue my arguement. I just think it is silly that anyone would even consider it noteworthy that WoW is copied.
#22 by geldonyetich on November 16th, 2009
Sure, I could buy that. I can remember at least time I enjoyed revisiting an old game to remember how to solve an old puzzle and see a familiar face.
However, resolving the same old puzzle doesn’t seem to apply much to an MMORPG. It’s more like every MMORPG I buy is dropping that same old puzzle back on me, and I’m so very bored of that puzzle that I’m severely disappointed they attempted to disguise it as anything else. I’ve catapulted myself into this situation many more times after I knew better, however, because Massively Multiplayer always has their kernel of potential epic.
I don’t think Raph intended to imply that people would enjoy solving the same puzzles indefinitely. There’s a definite limit which, given the average MMORPG time expectation, is likely passed with any adequately experienced player.
#23 by faefrost on November 16th, 2009
But theres a diference between copying the more generalized controls and mechanics, in order to maintain a familiar feel, and literally copying the interface lock stock and graphic design and color schemes. They included elements of it that only exist in WoW, but not in their game. ie the keyring. There is “design for familiarity”, there is “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”, but then there is also “blatantly ripping off the other guys work and putting none in yourself”. This one is pretty deeply in the later.
#24 by geldonyetich on November 17th, 2009
Usually, it’s not too unusual to start with a successful game as a baseline and then add whatever it is you want to accomplish your your game. It’s a practical move on the grounds that you want your new players to have to relearn as little as possible to jump right in and play. (At least, in theory – I say the less they have to learn, the less you have to entertain them with.)
In this case, signs point to them starting with a successful game and simply seeking to emulate it as much as possible because they figure they’re looking at neigh perfection and the closer they can get to it the better.
They have precedent. No other MMORPG has reached a level of success anything near WoW, so it’s not an unreasonable assertion that they’re looking at the Robot Jesus of MMORPGs. However (and you knew there’d be a however) I already outlined on that other comment thread two very good reasons why imitating WoW is doomed to backfire.
#25 by tkioz on November 17th, 2009
While they might have meant to do it, being inspired by a competitor and taking their functionality isn’t a bad thing, it adds to the comfort of your players, however directly lifting it is just cheap.
#26 by Flimgoblin on November 17th, 2009
Flowers for Alganon.
#27 by J. on November 17th, 2009
David Allen
Horizons’ David Allen.
This is his new project.
#28 by Vaxhacker on November 17th, 2009
To paraphrase Yogi Berra, if you can’t imitate them, don’t copy them.
#29 by bonedead on November 17th, 2009
Pretty sure you got MW2 to be like Ice T.
Because if there’s one thing Ice T knows, it’s lemonade.
#30 by Ed on November 18th, 2009
I swear that some of their screenshots look like they were actually taken in WoW. I guess that saves time during development? As to the UI, aren’t we glad look and feel is not copyrightable? heh
#31 by Arkazon on November 18th, 2009
Imitation is one thing. Basing your construction off the foundation of another game is fine. Doing a basic copy and paste is quite another. Why would someone pay to play a game that copies another game poorly?
#32 by geldonyetich on November 18th, 2009
What’s being previewed there isn’t finished yet. I’m not saying they’re deviate from WoW much on account of how they’re apparently resolved to duplicate WoW as much as possible, but it’s possible that they’re at least copy it less poorly by release.
#33 by J. on November 18th, 2009
DAVID ALLEN.
DID YOU NUMB NUTS FORGET ABOUT DAVID FUCKING ALLEN.
YES, I BET YOU DID.
#34 by Sheepherder on November 18th, 2009
Just going to throw this out there:
The UI is one of the little “puzzles” that the player should not have to cover new ground in learning. That’s a sure shortcut to him getting pissed and quitting. Pick up Ultima VII and play with the inventory if you don’t believe me.
#35 by geldonyetich on November 18th, 2009
Well, to put the GUI in a more positive light, a popular saying in the industry is “The GUI is the game.” The player’s interaction with the GUI is, to a great extent, the whole of the activity. If you give them the same GUI over and over again simply because it’s easier for them to grok, you will eventually hit a point in which the player feels there’s absolutely nothing new to be found and move right along.
Thus, in my design philosophy (backed up by my resounding release of exactly 0 games) you need to give players new things to learn. You don’t make learning too difficult, of course, the GUI should be intended to be easy enough for a beginner to pick up and come to understand. However, there’s a difference between this and simply giving the player the same game, by giving them the same GUI, that they just finished stopping playing.
#36 by Iconic on November 19th, 2009
This would be more interesting if it was really about how Modern Warfare 2 is like a Michael Bay movie.
#37 by fatbutt on November 25th, 2009
Honestly, from what I’ve seen, copying the GUI almost unflinchingly implies attempting to copy the GAME. Not to mention that interfaces should be designed for the game you’re making: not every game has the same sensibilities as WoW or any of its million clones, and I’d really prefer not to expect seeing the exact same interface again.
Sheepherder: Ultima 7 is quite a different, oldskool beast, and I’m not sure what your point is.