This Just In: We Can’t Trust Any Of You With Those Body Parts You Think About, Like, All The Time

@Dblade:

Please don’t say “lifestyle choice.” It’s not one, and while I give wide latitude to “PC speech requests,” that’s not an accurate way to describe sexual orientation any more than saying your presumed heterosexuality is a “choice.”

And I think my earlier comment here got eaten, so I’ll paraphrase. Thanks for the link Lum, I appreciate it.

@wowpanda, I’m not sure why this would need to be a lawsuit at all, much less ones on “copyright infringement” that wouldn’t apply anyway. Blizzard, for example, already has provisions in their EULA making such behavior against their rules and players agree to be bound by it when they log in for the first time. They don’t need to sue anybody who blasts off homophobic speech, they just need to enforce their existing rules.

But that’s the problem, they don’t, and trolls don’t take it seriously whether they’re calling people fags in trade chat or just being obnoxious about other stuff. If Blizzard made a strong move to ensure their present rules are not just lip service, eventually everyone but the most stalwart troll would police themselves. And ensuring Blizzard is the one in charge of this means there won’t be a backlash against groups like GLAAD or the communities they’re trying to speak for; that’s my biggest concern with their initiative, that players will feel that these groups are muscling in on their game and trying to change how it’s run for the benefit of a small group. Whether that’s accurate or not won’t change the perception to many, and I worry this will inspire opposition to gay players who just want to play the game without having to listen to fag jokes.

There’s no research at all in the first place. When did you decide you were going to be straight? Did you weigh the pros and cons of being sexually interested in men, eventually deciding that it wasn’t for you and that you’d go back to being with girls? Ofcourse not, yet people still insist it’s a decision.

Why would I, and this is really not a rhetorical question, “decide” to be gay with all the opposition and harassment and ostracism that comes along with that? Why would I electively choose to be unable to get married, to be unable to visit my spouse if he’s in the hospital, to be unable to donate blood, ineligible to work in certain positions, unable to adopt children from numerous agencies, on and on and on. What am I getting from deciding to be gay that outweighs all of that? It would certainly be a hell of a lot easier to be straight, if it was something I could flip a switch for.

There’s no real studies into “where” sexual orientation comes from at all, but all indications are that it is biological. Animals exhibit homosexual behavior in the wild constantly, this is well documented. Any study that finds the “gay gene” is going to be followed up with a mad dash, financed by Christian evangelical organizations, to cure it. We’re probably better off with no conclusive proof either way.

What does nobody care about/what are we being oversensitive about?

Gx1080:

I dealt with a lot of that in the second link Lum posted above. I also am having a bit of deja vu that I’ve discussed this same thing with you here as well, but maybe I’m wrong. No, being gay doesn’t have anything to do with games really, unless the game designers choose to make it relevant somehow. But WoW is a social game, and social games have actual people in them. This isn’t a single player RPG where you follow the linear path set out by the writers and that’s that. There’s communication and sharing and identities relevant to the players who play the games. Being gay has nothing to do with the game itself any more than learning about what you and your girlfriend had for dinner last week, what sports teams you like or where you live in the world, but nobody pitches a fit demanding that the latter doesn’t get shared.

My issue with GLAAD is that they’ve only touched the LGBT aspect of this when there’s a lot more to it than that. Gay players aren’t the only ones harassed, minorities have to put up with it too and the way females are treated is abhorrently disgusting. I was playing yesterday and stopped in a city to put some stuff in my bank and walked in on trade chat on fire with some bozos saying that the only girls who play WoW are fat ugly ones who can’t get dates anyway. A couple of girls took offense to that and by saying “Well I don’t think I’m ugly and I am successful in real life but I still play” the direction of conversation went to lewd comments propositioning them for sex. At some point in all of that I said something to the effect of “If I was a girl I would never say so here, I can only imagine the messages the ones who just did got whispered if public chat is any indication.” Every one of them sent me a message thanking me for that and expressing how grossed out they felt.

GLAAD isn’t coercing Blizzard to do anything; Blizzard already has policies in place that make this sort of thing, whether it’s sexually harassing female characters or making fag jokes, against the rules. Telling people to report is extremely ineffectual because it never results in punishment. I report abusive players all the time, knowing that confronting them is usually the response they want. I have never once seen a player get punished for it, even when they’re so horrendously over the line that there can be no way to say “Ah, this wasn’t so bad.” The trolls don’t take reporting seriously, so they’re not going to stop being asshats with the fear of that in mind. And if players don’t feel that reporting abuse accomplishes anything, they’re less likely to report.

I don’t think the way GLAAD is going about this is the best idea, but I do think you’re grossly reading into what you think their goal is. I also think you’re downplaying the effect this sort of behavior has. And at the end of the day even if it’s just about playing a game that doesn’t in any way excuse abusive speech or make it fair to punish a player that doesn’t want to be subjected to it. LGBT players spend the same amount of money each month on the subscription as straight players do, so homophobic asshats don’t get a monopoly on what speech can fly.

When you’re coming to this from the perspective of “attention whores,” I don’t really know what to tell you. Someone isn’t an attention whore because they want to play a game in an environment where they don’t feel harassed. How do you think we get equality to begin with? It’s because people fight for it, whether they’re picketing politicians who are passing legislation to restrict rights, or they’re writing letters to media organizations that portray a minority in a negative light. It is as much a cultural battle as a legal one, and it’s easier to win the culture aspect before the laws start getting passed.

I have a feeling you didn’t read any of the links, especially starting with GLAAD’s own press release. I’m hardly a spokesperson for them, nor do I necessarily agree with their intentions, but they aren’t “attacking” anyone. They invited Blizzard, along with several other companies including EA and Linden Lab, to discuss these things and those companies voluntarily sent representatives out to talk about these issues. WoW has the population of several large cities, the gay contingent of that is not a handful of people by any means.

You’re still stuck on the gay aspect of this; it’s just as inappropriate for people to sit in trade chat screaming that they don’t want niggers playing this game, it’s just as inappropriate for people to glorify Nazism and make disparaging comments about Jewish people, it’s just as inappropriate the way female gamers are treated. No minorities should have to put up with that, and no one should have to choose between ignoring nasty comments that make them uncomfortable or speaking out against it and getting attacked for doing so.

I don’t agree that most of this is meant to be hateful; I think it’s largely attention-whoring on the part of trolls who giggle to themselves when they say something nasty and get an uproar. It’s hard to separate that from the actual bigots though, and either way such comments still empower the hatred all the same. The biggest thing GLAAD has asked for is greater visibility of tools to report players who break the rules along with more transparency with their policing to ensure that players know if they report someone, action was taken. GLAAD is asking this on behalf of LGBT players, but that will benefit all minorities as well.

As to improving the situation, asshats will be asshats. I agree with you, you can’t get rid of them entirely. You don’t need to get rid of them entirely, because if the majority of them get punished they will eventually get a hint and grow up and the rest of the community will do the policing for them. There is a lot to be said though for feeling like the community cares about it; as it is right now if I see someone cracking a fag joke in trade, rare is it I see anyone say “That’s not cool, be respectful.” Most comments go along with it. If more players spoke up against it, more players would feel safe to do so as well.

Saying that I or anyone else needs to just accept it because that’s how gamers are is irresponsible. I’m a gamer, I don’t resemble this behavior at all, and I don’t appreciate allowing racist, homophobic and sexist asshats to get the privilege of being the spokesperson for my hobby.

Gx1080, that’s the double standard, and that’s the ridiculous part. It’s perfectly fine for you to talk about what you and your girlfriend did last night, but if I casually say “Hey guys I have to go, my boyfriend wants to get dinner,” then suddenly it’s all about sexual liaisons and what I do in the bedroom etc.

That’s complete bullshit. And I hate to break it to you, but people DO care. Part of the reason I no longer live in the United States is because people care enough to the point that it’s not possible for me to marry my boyfriend who is from Australia, and he has no way to live with me in the US. Australia has laxer attitudes on this though, so that’s why I am here.

Nevertheless I am really torn up inside that I ruined your day by saying that I don’t want to have to put up with fag jokes in a game I pay for. No really, I’m sobbing here.

I have to come back and point out the absurdity of something. You find it really really tiring to have to consistently interject yourself into discussions of LGBT issues which, by your own admission, you don’t care about.

Boo hoo?

I’m the one who has to live them, these aren’t hypothetical thought exercises that I take part in for my own amusement. I have no choice in the matter. You can walk away from it, you’re not forced here. However these things actively affect me and my life, so please do forgive me for the hilarious expression I’m making right now as I try and get my brain to work out your position.

Sigh, again with the “choice” thing.

I wouldn’t really argue that gaming platform is any more important than music or television or any other media; they’re all important. It just happens that rampant homophobia (and racism, and sexism) are out of control in online video games moreso than other realms. A twelve year old in Counterstrike can just as easily grow up to be a twenty nine year old who gets his friends to drive by gay bars on the weekends to beat some fags up.

But more to the point, no one should have to put up with this stuff making them uncomfortable, especially if they’re paying for the privilege. That goes for gay players, that goes for black people, that goes for women. “Oh it’s just a game” doesn’t excuse it and, worse, it puts the blame on the group being marginalized for feeling marginalized. Again, I’m not in the gung-ho GLAAD camp, but as long as they’re primarily asking Blizzard to enforce policies that they already have in place, they’re not really asking for a lot. Blizzard ALREADY makes this stuff against the rules, it’s just their policing of it that’s a joke.

I don’t think it’s a matter of ideology; I already said, both here and in my entry Lum quoted, that I don’t think 80% of the homophobic speech in video games are from actual homophobes. I think a lot of it is just to get attention. That doesn’t make it any more “fun” to walk in on though, and I still think it makes the environment toxic. That the majority of the comments here are “Yeah, gamers are 12 year old immature morons, what are you gonna do,” means that this has an effect beyond just LGBT players or the other groups this sort of speech is targeted towards.

Do you want to be associated with that? I personally don’t. I don’t see how a clean up of that behavior can’t be a positive thing for all concerned. Except, ofcourse, the kids who want attention, but I don’t suspect GLAAD will be wandering into /b/ anytime soon so that’s still left.

Geldon, you’re still missing the point. That’s what GLAAD is doing. They’re not sending anyone in-game asking players to be nice to each other. They’re getting the developers involved. They’re asking companies to create policies against abusive speech if they don’t have any policies already, and if they do, they’re asking for stronger enforcement of those policies and greater transparency with the policing of it.

Did anyone read the press release? I mean all of this stuff is spelled out up there.

I don’t really have a problem with no real-life stuff being discussed across the board, as long as that’s applied to everyone, whether they’re gay or straight or talking about getting blowjobs from a girl or having dinner with their same-sex partner.

In reality it is exceptionally rare that someone actually doesn’t want any real life discussed, it is usually used to bash down the discussion of real-life stuff they don’t like.

If it’s equal treatment for everyone all the way, I don’t really care. But at the moment it isn’t, and it’s far more likely that you’re just going to have to accept mention of things outside of that, because people aren’t going to stop discussing their race, religion, politics, favorite color, where they live, etc etc.

Who’s disrupting anything? I don’t even have to speak in global chat to have to still see gay or black jokes constantly. I don’t have to bring anything up to have to be subjected to that. That continues on its own whether or not anyone gay is actively inspiring it. You keep telling me how much nobody cares, but obviously enough people do to turn it into an insult. I can turn trade and general off, yeah, thus depriving myself of an intended game mechanic because nobody follows the rules and Blizzard doesn’t do anything about it. I shouldn’t have to do that, though. I shouldn’t have to wall myself off and be afraid to say anything or it’s “my fault” I receive abuse.

Forget the gay stuff; you’re not supposed to talk about politics at all in trade chat in WoW, yet people flagrantly use it for things that have nothing to do with trading equipment and professions all the time. If Blizzard can’t even be counted on to take care of that, who’s going to bother reporting more serious stuff to them?

I don’t know what else to tell you. It’s clear you didn’t really take any effort to educate yourself about this particular issue because you keep attributing motivations and so forth to people and groups that have expressed the opposite. You’re more interested in spouting off hyperbole than receiving other viewpoints. Frankly if hearing that a player is gay makes you this uncomfortable, perhaps you’re the one who needs to leave global chat channels, instead of expecting them to keep quiet about it.

@Cymbaline, okay I see your point, I was talking more about the fact that, for example, television shows and films were depicting interracial relationships and marriage well before it was kosher to have them in real life. The entertainment industry tackled those things long before there were laws passed to make them acceptable. People had a cultural awareness of it that wouldn’t have come with simply the laws being passed, and I doubt the laws would have been passed without a critical mass behind it. And now given that you have black special interest groups also behind political lobbies fighting to deny gay rights, there’s definitely a shift even if I would agree that “racism” is far from gone.

@Gx1080, I don’t know why you keep confusing “I want to not have to put up with homophobic speech in a game I pay for” with being a victim or not accepting myself. I assure you I have a much better handle on my sexuality than I suspect you do.

That’s all well and lovely, but I don’t get why you keep putting the blame on people who don’t want to be harassed and attacked as “disrupting” anything for you.

And frankly the “I come here to escape!” line is really getting old. It is a small percentage of people who actually go there to “escape” anything, and if it bothers you that much you ought to be the one disconnecting yourself from global chat channels and not socializing with others, because even if all the gay references stop tomorrow, the political arguments, religious arguments, stupid pop culture references and so on won’t stop. You also miss the point that Blizzard itself revels in said pop culture references at every opportunity, whether they’re making quests reference television shows or songs or naming NPCs after celebrities. You might need to escape reality but even Blizzard isn’t enabling that. I haven’t seen any indication from Blizzard that that’s their intended direction either; they don’t penalize players for talking about what college they go to or where they live and don’t penalize players for saying they’re gay in real life either.

No, the only “escape” most of the people want is from stuff they find icky. Somehow it’s fair for you to decide what you don’t want to be exposed to, and if someone steps outside that they deserve to be insulted and harassed and ridiculed. Way to blame the victim, guys.

It doesn’t make a difference either way. Blizzard isn’t going to stop people from talking about their political affiliations and you’re just going to have to accept that a gay player can say he’s gay just as much as you can say you’re straight and you just have to accept that. If you don’t want to, try that /ignore thing I keep hearing is so popular.

I’m pointing out the fallacy in dictating that people hide their real lives in an online social environment because you don’t want to hear about it. That isn’t going to ensure you don’t see those details you want to “escape” from, but definitely ensures that a hostile environment has been created which rewards bigotry and makes people be afraid to express themselves. WoW is not a world for escapism, it’s as much social network as video game. Expecting people to divorce themselves from that before they log in is absurd; they don’t even do that on the servers specifically dedicated as roleplaying.

I don’t have a “cause,” if you read what I wrote I was rather critical of GLAAD. I think the best thing they can do is ensure Blizzard takes responsibility of policing this, leaving the onus on them to clean up their community. If GLAAD makes a spectacle of it, it will backfire, and it’s better left on the shoulders of the company running the game.

But I totally find this whole argument that gay players shouldn’t be allowed to even casually say they’re gay without being responsible for a shitstorm to be the most absurd thing I’ve read about this. I would no sooner expect you to feel uncomfortable to casually reference your heterosexuality– which I’m sure you have done– than push that on another person. If another player says they are straight or gay or black or Jewish or from Iran or Chinese or deaf on and on they should feel like they aren’t going to get attacked for it. Not get deluged in a bunch of comments blaming them for bringing it up and insinuating that they deserve the abuse they receive. You and others keep fixating on the gay part when it applies across the board. Nobody should be afraid to be themselves in these games, that is the real point, and your comments don’t help them or yourself.

@Jeremy, I am also curious about these ethereal throat-shovings I keep hearing about. In my experience in WoW specifically conversation tends to consist of someone either bitching about how gay something is, whether it’s the wipe or losing a duel or an item roll, or someone in global chat bitching about how all the blood elves are fags and so and so has queer gear. It’s good to know that if I happen to say something about it I’m broadcasting my sexuality in an inappropriate location.

I’m just saying, if your advice is good enough for me, why isn’t it good enough for you? You have tools to restrict what you see; the difference is that you don’t want to see any references to real life however demure, while I don’t want to see hateful, abusive speech that attacks me and marginalizes me as a human being. It’s not a matter of what’s more valid than the other, but you do see the disparity between the two, right?
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By this point I think I’ve circled around and around and said all I can possibly say. I am now freeing this link up from its place in my Firefox tabs and returning control of the blog to Lum. I thank you all for keeping this discussion under the comment-count of the last gay discussion here, mad props yo.