"I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader?"

Bit of a tempest in the nascent Star Wars: Old Republic community boards today, when a player discovered that such words as “gay”, “lesbian” and “cryptofascist” were added to the obscenity filter. The forums nerd raged about this until the Bioware CM, Sean Dahlberg posted that the words were being filtered because

As I have stated before, these are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.

 

Thread closed.

The fine, fine moderate journalists at Kotaku thus immediately posted a story with the words “BIOWARE: THERE ARE NO GAYS IN STAR WARS” which caused the nerd rage to explode into a fury of POLITICAL nerd rage, ending only with Dahlberg apologizing directly to the player making the original post.

 

Well, isn’t that special. My take on all this:

  • This isn’t a tempest in a teapot, it’s a tempest in a thimble that may someday, possibly, hold a tea leaf. The “community” for SW:TOR doesn’t have a lot of actual game to discuss, so they talk about things like, oh, the political implication of words in your censor file. This is a pretty powerful argument that there’s no real reason to, you know, host forums for a game that is years from actually technically existing. The rabid fans who want to discuss their own personal views of how SW:TOR will implement womprat husbandry can do so on someone else’s dime. Kotaku wouldn’t have cared less if IGN added “lesbian” to their autocensor filter.
  • But say TOR was actually in beta, or up and running. My initial reaction is that there’s a suite of topics, mostly involving politics, religion, and the various convergences thereof, that simply aren’t appropriate for an official MMO discussion board. There are many topics that you just simply don’t want to worry about moderating. An intelligent moderation is key here – discussing LGBT-friendly guilds and issues raised from that (mostly involving 12 year olds saying “ghey” a lot) is on topic. Discussing your views on California’s Proposition 8 isn’t.  Real world politics is not a morass you want to dive into, because people with very valid opinions that differ violently from yours are still your paying customers. Note: simply adding words like “lesbian”, “gay”, “mormon” and “Arlen Spector” to your autocensor file does not count as  intelligent moderation.
  • Gay marraige is a third rail at the moment. The folks at Turbine (who have tended to be fairly liberal politically) punted on the issue for LOTRO by simply saying that it didn’t work with the license. Blizzard has been fairly conservative on the issue, to much distress. (Ironically, one of the guild names listed in that story as protesting Blizzard’s actions is a crystal clear TOS violation, or would be if anyone at Blizzard knew what it meant. Hint: it’s not Stonewall Champions!)  There is no good answer here. If you disallow same-sex marraige, you piss off a solid minority of your player base. If you allow same-sex marriage, you piss off a solid minority of your player base. If you disallow ANY marriage, you piss off a solid majority of your player base. So really, just do what you feel is right, since there’s no right answer here. I tend to the Sims solution – just let the players do what they want, and be completely agnostic about it. Which – not surprisingly – will piss off a solid minority of your player base.
  • You guys DO know Alec Guiness was bisexual, right?
  • Sanya Weathers thinks the issue is a bit simpler.

In case you’re wondering, I think that banning any kind of virtual relationship between avatars makes you look like a reactionary monkey. I also think that most in game relationships are between people who are male in the physical world. Finally, I think that if the Jedi council were real, they would think this entire discussion is for mental midgets without any awareness or comprehension of the serious issues endangering the citizens of the galaxy.

The REAL question of course, is which way Boba Fett swings. Because, you know, which ever way he does? That way is correct.

 

  • http://worldofdiscourse.wordpress.com/ Bilsybub

    Boba Fett swings my way.

  • http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com Rohan

    You’d think Bioware would have just punted to George Lucas / Lucasfilm. That way you don’t get the License owner upset with you later, and you can deflect the outrage on the forums to someone else.

  • DrewC

    In Pirates we had a mission arc where you end up choosing an NPC to marry. Having both male and female characters we had both male and female NPCs for the player to choose from, and we decided to allow you to marry an NPC of the same gender. By and large this wasn’t a problem except for the people who thought it would be ‘teh funny’ to choose a gay relationship and then were very upset when they couldn’t change their mind later. We eventually implemented a way for players to select a different spouse (hey, it’s the 1720′s, it happened).

    Moral of the story? People love to experiment, but they don’t want to be stuck with the consequences.

  • Raad

    I hope he swings my way. I like being right.

  • sidereal

    I mostly agree, except with the claim that using the word ‘gay’ is inherently political (or even related to “LGBT issues”, etc). Is the comment

    “Hey, even I think the elf on the box art is hot, and I’m gay!”

    inherently political? There are people who believe every reference to homosexuality is prima facie offensive or political, but the number is dwindling and I don’t think MMO developers do themselves any favors throwing in their lot with that solid minority.

  • dartwick

    Developers wouldnt be in the box if half the gay community didnt get their panties in a knot every time someone uses gay as a mild pejorative.

  • Merkwurdigliebe

    This is why I don’t read message boards for games that don’t exist, games that do exists, or games that don’t have boobies.

  • http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org Sanya

    @dartwick

    /blinks in confusion

    Er, not being gay, I can’t say I’m speaking for the gay community or anything, but… using a trait inherent to an individual, something that cannot be helped, as a pejorative… it’s offensive. Really.

  • hitnrun

    “My initial reaction is that there’s a suite of topics, mostly involving politics, religion, and the various convergences thereof, that simply aren’t appropriate for an official MMO discussion board.”

    This.

    Actually, the unholy trinity of polite discussion is sex, politics, and religion. LGBT issues score all of one and at least a third of the other two. There’s simply nothing productive that will be explored about these topics in any informal discussion on boards for an unreleased videogame, much less a rapid-fire discussion, much less an anonymous rapid-fire discussion where the sole scoring measure is how many catch phrases you can use while expanding your e-sneer.

    Why should it be a mod’s job to adjudicate these inevitable arguments (by calling them arguments I’m dignifying them overmuch) indefinitely, especially when one false move could cost your job and your company a slew of sales or a seven figure lawsuit?

  • Not You

    Actually, poll after poll and election after election clearly shows the majority is against gay marriage. Even in liberal California.

    The LGBTQ community is simply louder and more obnoxious.

  • Boanerges

    My general rule of thumb on conversations is this: if it doesn’t help the situation at hand, or will likely inflame passions, skip it. It’s that simple. The major question for the woman in the article is “What does whom you like to have sex with have anything to do with WoW?”. You can be LGBT friendly all you want. Knock yourself out. Make your entire guild chat nothing but that. I really don’t care. But when you let people advertise that, what’s to stop some guy from advertising that he’s running a porn guild? Or a cyb0r guild? What does anything that goes on outside the game have to do with playing a MMO? Trying to state that those activities are part of “who you are” and might be somehow different also goes beyond the scope of what’s at hand. It doesn’t help.

    And the stupidity runs deep on both sides of any issue. Lest anyone think the only bad things happen to gays and friends of gays…

    There was even an in-game protest where players tried to block a marriage ceremony because the participants were “flaunting their heterosexuality”.

    Just skip it. Sex has no place in an MMO (unless you’re talking about Second Life, where it’s a tradeskill).

  • http://amburgey@rotman.utoronto.ca JuJutsu

    All the posts are about gay and lesbian….what about cryptofascist? Surely one of the most basic freedoms on mmo boards is to call someone a cryptofascist, even if you’re NOT Prokofy Neva.

  • dartwick

    Sanya :
    @dartwick
    /blinks in confusion
    Er, not being gay, I can’t say I’m speaking for the gay community or anything, but… using a trait inherent to an individual, something that cannot be helped, as a pejorative… it’s offensive. Really.

    Im not saying people arent offended. Im saying they need to let it go. Or perhaps register their disagreement simply and move on, with out drama of demanding game developers play social police and ban every teen who does it.

    Additionally at some level many people need to be offended less when all sorts of traits are used as pejoratives. When someone goofs up its not an assault on humanity if you call them a “moron” or “retard”. If someone throws a fit its not horrible when they are referred to as “going mental”. If someone doesnt see the obvious its ok to call them “blind.”
    And accept it, being gay vs straight is not the same being white vs asian. Many gays act in way particular to being gay. Its not exactly unreasonable acknowledge this and use it as a metaphor for others behavior at times.

    Developers are in a box in trying to sort out these issues. Its bad enough when forum moderators have to sort between proper and improper use of “gay.” (and boy is it fun to use the word gay in a vague but reasonable manner on forums just to perplex mods.) Game devs shouldnt have to to sort though proper and improper usage of a word in chat.

    NOTE: To be clear Im NOT talking about attacks directed at gays, which obviously are unreasonable.

  • Jeff R

    Wow. This whole issue just blows my mind. Sean Dahlberg should not have apologized to anyone. I’m what you probably consider a Star Wars geek. Loved most of the movies, liked most of the books. Never, ever, in any book, game or movie have I seen any reference to a gay couple. It just doesn’t exist in the Star Wars universe, cannon or not.

    “These are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.” That is a statement of fact. No one cares what you do in your bedroom, get over yourself.
    I’ve worked in the gaming press, I understand the need for “hits”, but I’ll never read Kotaku again if this is their idea of journalism. What a joke.

  • VPellen

    I think that the safest way to deal with gay marriage in an MMO is to not deal with it at all. If nothing else, you can use the cover of “we have more important issues to worry about at the moment”. It’s extra programming and content development time with no enormous benefit. If I were behind the wheel so to speak, I’d allow it, but that’s more about who I am as a person than for any justifiable design decision.

    Enforcing a coverall policy on your forums that you can’t discuss the “unholy trinity” (as hitnrun put it) is probably a good idea, but there’s a flipside; Back in my time as an MMORPG.com moderator, I ran some checks and discovered that the “off topic” forum of the website, a forum devoted pretty much entirely to the unholy trinity, also happened to be the most active forum on the entire website. Even more so than the “General MMO Discussion” board.

    Censoring the words “Gay” and “Lesbian” on either your forums or in game is a phenomenally retarded idea, if only because it does nothing to keep people from discussing it whilst also pissing off a good portion of your playerbase. Censoring those words is going to piss off far more people than not censoring them will. And quite frankly, if your forums are so laden with discussions of homosexuality that you have to put in fucking wordfilters to counteract it, then perhaps your forums aren’t quite as family friendly as you’d like to believe.

    MMOs may not be about sex, but MMOs are about people, and last I checked, sex and love is a pretty big subcatagory of “significant things to do with people”.

  • http://forge.ironrealms.com Matt Mihaly

    Jeff R wrote:

    Wow. This whole issue just blows my mind. Sean Dahlberg should not have apologized to anyone. I’m what you probably consider a Star Wars geek. Loved most of the movies, liked most of the books. Never, ever, in any book, game or movie have I seen any reference to a gay couple. It just doesn’t exist in the Star Wars universe, cannon or not.

    That’s clearly not the reason it was banned. I’m fairly certain the words ‘internet’, ‘America’, and ‘Jesus’ are never mentioned in the Star Wars cannon and yet they’re not banned.

    Let’s not pretend we’re stupid here and act as if the cannon was anything but a transparent, lame excuse.

    –matt

  • http://forge.ironrealms.com Matt Mihaly

    Jeff R wrote:

    It’s extra programming and content development time with no enormous benefit.

    I’m not privy to the code, but I think you’re probably wrong. If marriage is in the game it’s almost certainly extra work to stop same sex couples from marrying each other. Granted, the extra work should boil down to about five seconds of code if it’s written intelligently, but the game doesn’t recognize differences between genders until you tell it to.

    In other words, preventing gay marriage in-game isn’t a matter of not having time to implement it – it’s an intentional, conscious design decision that took extra work to enact in the first place.

  • Vetarnias

    @DrewC
    Yes, I remember that bit of PotBS lore quite well, and I recall that you brought that in because a few of the players were… shall we say dismayed?… at the finality of the choice.

    Glad to hear you can now change spouses. However, I wonder what would have happened if you had stuck to realism and made every French and Spanish character wait a couple of years while the case wound its way to the Pope.

  • http://www.crymore.de EpicSquirt

    Obscenity filters are idiotic, so are all MMO-related forums, especially the official ones.

    Unshaved men (gay or not) taste like chicken btw., you should try it out by kissing one.

  • Vetarnias

    @Scott Jennings

    I didn’t know that Alec Guinness was bisexual. But I do know that his surname, like the beer, has two “n”‘s in it.

    As for the subject at hand. Strangely enough, I don’t think it matters much outside of a few roleplayers (who certainly won’t be stopped by a language filter).

    So I’ll take a cop-out of my own and say that as far as I’m concerned, the filter is useless, unless it’s just the type of thing to get on the good side of the legal system by being seen as doing something to prevent hate speech.

    I guess that means that for the rest of us, we won’t be able to discuss Friedrich Nietzsche’s “The *** Science”, or John ***’s “The Beggar’s Opera”, conversations found in MMORPG’s on a regular basis. Why, Lexical Functional Grammar is mentioned quite a few times in chat, as is the 19th-century British illustrator Charles Norris.

  • Technogeek

    The fact that Bioware were the ones who created Juhani gives this whole shitstorm (particularly the comment that set it off) an extra layer of comedy to me.

  • http://antipwn.wordpress.com IainC

    dartwick :

    Im not saying people arent offended. Im saying they need to let it go. Or perhaps register their disagreement simply and move on, with out drama of demanding game developers play social police and ban every teen who does it.
    Additionally at some level many people need to be offended less when all sorts of traits are used as pejoratives. When someone goofs up its not an assault on humanity if you call them a “moron” or “retard”. If someone throws a fit its not horrible when they are referred to as “going mental”. If someone doesnt see the obvious its ok to call them “blind.”
    And accept it, being gay vs straight is not the same being white vs asian. Many gays act in way particular to being gay. Its not exactly unreasonable acknowledge this and use it as a metaphor for others behavior at times.

    Please stop talking.

  • Gx1080

    In one hand, the way of Bioware to handle this its retard, mainly because a)Its a completely lack of diplomacy and a major sample of bigotry and b)How do you know if they werent gays in Satr Wars, its a huge galaxy (and i dare anybody to tell me that you didnt ever think in “secret rituals” betwen padawan and master).

    That said, if they didnt do it for liking acting like jerks, then i bet that they are just scared of being sued (like every company out there), they panicked and did a stupid thing.

    And for all the gay comunity, chill a little, as ive said, people do stupid things when they are scared of being sued.

  • Gx1080

    Oh by the way:

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=26291&page=17

    The BioWare guys retracted and allow players say those words.

  • http://www.crymore.de EpicSquirt

    You know what’s odd, after thinking about it for a while, I don’t have a problem with writing something like

    I went mental on that retarded dude, either he was blind or a moron, but his actions fucked up that gay server even more.

    in English (foreign language for me) but I would never write it in this way in Polish (native) or German (the language I use most nowadays).

    Also, my gf complained about me cursing too much when being on voice comms, but I only curse when speaking English.

    So where did this come from? I suppose that I’ve inherited that habit from some people I’ve read or heard. It’s not something to be proud of, so I can understand efforts to keep forums clean, but word based filters are the wrong way. Sensible moderators would be better.

  • dartwick

    Please stop talking.

    Oh nos!!! you dont like the common sense of the un-PC.

    People need to accept some mild humor about generalizations. If you dont personally fit the generalization you need to suck it up and move on. This goes for gays, fundies, whites, rednecks, blacks, jews, muslims and etc.

  • Freakazoid

    I can sort of understand blocking gay and lesbian, but cryptofacism? Secret affiliations are practically a core storytelling component for star wars. The Sith wouldn’t be who they are if they all had to be out in the open. I find that more stunning than any perceived gay issues.

  • Queso

    I have a roomate who is gay and he plays wow. We dont play on the same servers, but I am sure the one I play on is no different from the rest with all the gay bashing, racism etc.

    I dont wear headphones when I am raiding, so whenever someone in the raid says the F word, I always feel embaressed and ashamed that I play with some of these people.

    With that said, and I agree with Lum on its probably in the best intreset of the moderators of the forums to not allow this kind of discussion, but to actually ban the words Gay and Lesbian is taking it a bit far in my opinion. Granted, probably never going to be in use other than politcal discussion, but they arnt bad, derogetory words by any stretch of the imagination.

  • http://www.pinwiz.net Pinwiz

    >Gay marraige is a third rail at the moment.

    Only if you’re not paying attention. Since the first of the year, the polls have shown that the percentage of Americans in favor of Gay Marriage have increased from the low 30s to the middle 40s. It will only increase. Gay Marriage will happen, and nothing will stop that.

    As for the incident, it was a colossally idiotic move by Bioware and I anyone who is surprised by the outcome isn’t conscious.

    (aka some straight people just don’t get it)

  • http://antipwn.wordpress.com IainC

    dartwick :

    Please stop talking.

    Oh nos!!! you dont like the common sense of the un-PC.
    People need to accept some mild humor about generalizations. If you dont personally fit the generalization you need to suck it up and move on. This goes for gays, fundies, whites, rednecks, blacks, jews, muslims and etc.

    No, I object to you being wrong.

    It’s simply wrong to conflate ‘gay’ with pejorative terms like ‘moron’ or ‘retard’ as you did earlier. It’s also wrong to use terms like ‘black’ or ‘jew’ in a pejorative way as you suggested above. If you don’t understand that then I’d venture that it isn’t me who has the common sense issue.

  • Trife

    I think it’s flawed when you are going to punish people for subjecting themselves to ridicule. Do we punish people who travel through the bad parts of town and wonder why they get mugged? Opening yourself up to being victimized may be dumb on your own part, but punishing you to prevent the crimes against you just ruins the whole concept of protecting you.

    Say “I’m gay” and you get in trouble.

  • dartwick

    @ pinwiz
    I dont think you want to use common consensuses as an argument here.

    Over the past 20 years the general population has become far far more accepting of gays in everyday life and at the same time “gay” has become a common slang pejorative between straights – often by the same people.

    (aka some gay people just dont get it)

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com J.

    You’re all a bunch of cryptofascists.

  • dartwick

    Ian C

    @IainC
    Well “gay” falls into a category of its own. Its not like being white or black(because its an exception to the norm in a population) and its not like being mentally retarded(because its not a disability.)

  • taodon

    As a gay man, I can honestly say – *yawn* – here’s why:
    1. The game doesn’t exist yet.
    2. The moderator was obviously frustrated and inexperienced. He could have wrote what he did differently, and things would not have exploded. The whole thing was overreaction by overly sensitive knee-jerk reactionaries.
    3. When I play MMOs – it is to escape RL. Why would I want to bring my real world life into a place I’m using to escape? It’s like shitting where you sleep.
    4. If you need to be gay married, or straight married even, in a video game in order to complete your life – you have no life.
    5. Most gays get over the “Waaah, I’m a victim” stage after awhile. Whoever started this cry-fest needs to accept themselves and stfu.
    6. Gays, do, in fact, exist in Star Wars. Hello – you can’t tell me that Han didn’t like being mastered by that bear he called Chewbacca.

  • Jeff

    taodon >
    6. Gays, do, in fact, exist in Star Wars. Hello – you can’t tell me that Han didn’t like being mastered by that bear he called Chewbacca.

    That is just wrong on soooo many levels.

  • Jeff

    Matt Mihaly :
    Jeff R wrote:

    It’s extra programming and content development time with no enormous benefit.

    I’m fairly certain I didn’t type what you’re quoting me as typing.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com J.

    taodon :
    The moderator was obviously frustrated and inexperienced.

    The moderator used to be the community manager for Shadowbane.

  • Vetarnias

    In a way, all this conversation just speaks of something far more deserving of concern than homosexuality.

    I’m talking about the failure of MMORPG’s as RPG’s, and the demise of roleplay.

    It’s probably why I’ve always despised voice chat as well; it breaks the illusion (besides all the privacy concerns). But to return to the subject, why some people would want to transpose their real-life sexuality into an MMO is beyond me. Sure, roleplay a homosexual if you happen to be one in real life and feel like creating a gay character, but why go into all this “LGBT inclusive guild” stuff which obviously is all about real life?

    If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.

    But here I just go, peddling my own agenda up a slope.

  • Bonedead

    I can see where they were coming from (though it seems like someone shot from the hip or didn’t really think about it) due to gay and lesbian usually being used on MMO forums as insults. But, those words when compared to other words that are filtered by default, are not nearly as big of a problem. If you just want to try and stop people from calling others gay, you could do an alright job by throwing money at it, but is it really worth it? Probably not, no. If you have forum mods (and I’m sure they do) who peruse through the topics and look for personal attacks, that’s probably the best option. If you want to throw money at it though, just have gay and lesbian etc send a flag to some inbox and then someone goes through all of those to see if they’re personal attacks or not. Meh I say!

  • Amaranthar

    DrewC :
    In Pirates we had a mission arc where you end up choosing an NPC to marry. Having both male and female characters we had both male and female NPCs for the player to choose from, and we decided to allow you to marry an NPC of the same gender. By and large this wasn’t a problem except for the people who thought it would be ‘teh funny’ to choose a gay relationship and then were very upset when they couldn’t change their mind later. We eventually implemented a way for players to select a different spouse (hey, it’s the 1720’s, it happened).
    Moral of the story? People love to experiment, but they don’t want to be stuck with the consequences.

    When you think about it, that’s actually a pretty good Life’s Lesson. You know, “If you think you might regret it later, don’t do it.”

    I think you did something good there, beyond games. Maybe games need more of this sort of thing. Maybe the change you offered later should have been a pain in the arse to do for the player, and I don’t know how you did it.

  • harl

    >If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.

    This

  • Mortarion

    Vetarnias :
    If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.
    But here I just go, peddling my own agenda up a slope.

    FINALLY, someone with a pro-dwarf agenda! Power to the short people! Beards & beer for all!
    :)

  • http://forge.ironrealms.com Matt Mihaly

    @Jeff
    Sorry about that. It was ‘VPellen’ that I should have been quoting there.

  • pharniel

    Mortarion :

    Vetarnias :If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.But here I just go, peddling my own agenda up a slope.

    FINALLY, someone with a pro-dwarf agenda! Power to the short people! Beards & beer for all!

    Indeed. When will the world finnaly acknowledged that the elvan holocost is a propaganda tool of the fae conspiracy?

    HEAR THE TRUTH BROTHERS!

  • Numtini

    Most likely the terms were banned by a general obscenity filter built into the board, it was the Bioware reps post that was really out of line. It was stupid and amateurish.

    As to why being gay or straight comes up in games, it comes up in games because real life comes up in games. The same reason I know my guildleader is Canadian or that our raid leader is a veterinary student or that one of our raiders is hearing impaired or another lives in Florida. It’s not a political statement, it’s just a male voice on vent saying he has to log to meet his boyfriend. Bang, your game is suddenly infected with The Gay. Believe it or not, something like that is enough to get you guildkicked from some idiot guilds. Yeah, who wants to be in a guild like that anyway, but frankly I’m too old to deal with bigoted chimps, so I’m going to look for a guild that’s GLBT friendly (most of which are still majority straight).

  • http://foolsage.wordpress.com foolsage

    dartwick :
    Ian C
    @IainC
    Well “gay” falls into a category of its own. Its not like being white or black(because its an exception to the norm in a population) and its not like being mentally retarded(because its not a disability.)

    Actually, that’s pretty vapid reasoning. “Gay” isn’t a category of its own, it’s just a descriptor referring to a group of people. It’s precisely like any other adjective.

    Using a descriptor referring to any group of people, whether it’s racial, religious, political, or sexual, in a derogatory manner unrelated to its original meaning, is fundamentally childish and ignorant. It’s always – by definition – innately offensive to the people the term actually refers to, and it’s in this case clearly rooted in simple homophobia (gay = bad).

    If e.g. people used the word “Muslim” to mean anything generically bad or unpleasant, that’d be offensive to Muslims. If e.g. people used the word “Italian” in the same manner, that’d be offensive to Italians. When you use the word “gay” in the same manner it’s offensive to gays. This is pretty simple stuff.

    Claiming that people should accept your intolerance and homophobia and “just get over it” is unreasonable. Arguing that intolerance and ignorance are common and should be ignored is also fundamentally foolish.

    There’s no good defense for this; give it up and grow up.

    I’m not gay, just unwilling to accept bigotry in any form.

    *******

    @ Vetarnias: “Sure, roleplay a homosexual if you happen to be one in real life and feel like creating a gay character, but why go into all this “LGBT inclusive guild” stuff which obviously is all about real life?
    If people were roleplaying, we wouldn’t be saying “gays welcome”, we’d be saying “dwarves welcome”.”

    The goal there I believe is to create a group of people who are accepting of each other and comfortable talking OOC about their lives in guild chat/forums/whatever. Whether they choose to roleplay or not isn’t the issue – the issue is that *some* OOC talk will inevitably happen somewhere, sometime, in every guild. In LotRO my wife and I belonged to a family-oriented guild; though there were a few teenagers most of us were in our 30s and 40s. We just liked being around other mature people that shared some of our interests and background. I imagine the LGBT guilds have the same objective, with the added concern that intolerance is a common problem for them.

    *******

    On the main subject, I think the CM response was pretty silly. The smartest thing the devs can do is distance themselves from the topic entirely. Making any sort of rules about what relationships can exist is frankly unnecessary and inevitably going to bite you on the ass. Forum discussions about sex, politics, or religion should simply be ignored by the devs as completely unrelated to the game. Let people make LGBT guilds, or Christian guilds, or Republican-only guilds, or Italian-only guilds if they want. Let them discuss it with each other on the forums too. Contrariwise, you can ban all mention of sexuality, religion, race, or politics from the forum, but such a ban has to be total and consistent or bias becomes evident and the players will revolt. Good luck with that.

  • ceolstan

    I am part of a large gaming community, and we discovered fairly early on that we’d censored the words “gay” and “queer” on our boards in an attempt to prevent the kinds of unwitting anti-gay comments that equate homosexuality with stupidity or general asshatery. However, we also discovered that we’d limited ourselves from discussing issues of homosexuality as they arose in game because of our obscenity filters. As a result, we changed the filters, and reminded our moderators that there was nothing wrong with the words “gay” or “queer.” There was a lot wrong with using either in a pejorative sense, and understanding that distinction was why we had moderators in the first place.

    The issue of whether or not gay relationships are part of a videogame is another issue altogether. If a game offers a relationship dimension, then same-sex relationships are, at least in my opinion, part of the landscape. Now, I do play Far Cry 2, and I’m fairly certain that there would be little room for any kind of relationship, though I do think my skanky, tattooed weasel of a guy would probably have had sex with the one female buddy if he’d had a chance. But most of the time there was too much shooting going on to concentrate on any other kind of relationship. I’ve played a lot of the Neverwinter 2 games, and there I am dead certain that my female toons are significantly more attracted to the female cohorts that share their alignment and religious beliefs.

    If there’s a point to all of this, it’s that an RPG game needs to consider whether relationships will be coded into the game. If they are, then that opens up discussions of what can be permitted under the ratings guidelines. A T=Teen game will have different possibilities than an M=Mature game. I do not know whether gay relationships are M=Mature, but I hope not. Rather, I’d want the rating to be a gauge of permissible explicitness. MMOs are different. Players are fairly free to interact how they wish online, save for whatever safeguards are placed with respect to exploitation. At that point, whatever the virtual relationship is, it’s fine with me, as long as it’s between two consenting toons.

  • taodon

    J. :

    taodon :
    The moderator was obviously frustrated and inexperienced.

    The moderator used to be the community manager for Shadowbane.

    Well then – I was right.

  • neispace

    Freakazoid:

    Wasn’t cryptofascist a term by a pretty annoying net movement a while back? Something like scientology that derided people as crytpofascists while being annoying as hell on forums. I wanted to say neoseekers, but I can’t rememeber the name of the adherents.