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	<title>Comments on: Fixing MMOs Is Hard</title>
	<atom:link href="http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/</link>
	<description>Random Comments About Games and Tractors</description>
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		<title>By: Class-less MMOs: Pie In The Sky &#171; Bio Break</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-3/#comment-21282</link>
		<dc:creator>Class-less MMOs: Pie In The Sky &#171; Bio Break</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-21282</guid>
		<description>[...] Scott Jennings mocked wet-behind-the-ears designers who tend to leap at the idea of building a MMO free of the traditional class setup: If I had a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Scott Jennings mocked wet-behind-the-ears designers who tend to leap at the idea of building a MMO free of the traditional class setup: If I had a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: GnomeDepot.Net » Grinding Levels</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-3/#comment-21173</link>
		<dc:creator>GnomeDepot.Net » Grinding Levels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 15:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-21173</guid>
		<description>[...] I think it all started a couple of weeks back with Tom Chick explaining why MMO&#8217;s are Broken which was basically a re-hash of every “Why this game suxors” post on every MMO forum out there. The next day Trembling Hand jumped on the bandwagon. Scott Jennings over on Broken Toys tried to explain to both of them that first, MMO &lt;&gt; WoW, and secondly, while most MMO’s are fantasy based, they’re not developed in Fantasy Land. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I think it all started a couple of weeks back with Tom Chick explaining why MMO&#8217;s are Broken which was basically a re-hash of every “Why this game suxors” post on every MMO forum out there. The next day Trembling Hand jumped on the bandwagon. Scott Jennings over on Broken Toys tried to explain to both of them that first, MMO &lt;&gt; WoW, and secondly, while most MMO’s are fantasy based, they’re not developed in Fantasy Land. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Spec</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-3/#comment-21005</link>
		<dc:creator>Spec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-21005</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;#commentbody-20888&quot;&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-20888&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;IainC &lt;/a&gt; :&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;BLOCKQUOTE cite=&quot;#commentbody-20879&quot;&gt;
&lt;STRONG&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-20879&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Spec&lt;/A&gt; :&lt;/STRONG&gt;Make Subscriptions Cheaper:The Chinese model of “The9″ where you buy time cards and only pay for the actual time you play is a pretty solid pay-to-play setup. Considering then you stop all whining about downtime and maintenance (not that you should launch with much downtime anyways). &lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;
That model works well for the asian market and some very specific Western ones (Greece and Spain for example) but isn’t so great for other Western markets.
You know how annoying it is when your party has to sit around waiting because the healer has to go and feed the kids in the middle of a raid or the tank needs to let the dog out RIGHT NOW? Now imagine that it’s not just wasting time but costing you money when they do that.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Technically - right now you are paying for the time that you sleep, work, eat, or whenever you aren&#039;t even logged into the game.  I actually live in China (not Chinese)- and yes, internet cafe&#039;s are popular (they are more like dirty slave dungeons).  If you walk around most of them though, it&#039;s typically starcraft or other games.  Alot of the WoW community here plays from home (not to say you don&#039;t see WoW at all in the cafe&#039;s).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="#commentbody-20888"><p>
<strong><a href="#comment-20888" rel="nofollow">IainC </a> :</strong><br />
<blockquote cite="#commentbody-20879">
<strong><a href="#comment-20879" rel="nofollow">Spec</a> :</strong>Make Subscriptions Cheaper:The Chinese model of “The9″ where you buy time cards and only pay for the actual time you play is a pretty solid pay-to-play setup. Considering then you stop all whining about downtime and maintenance (not that you should launch with much downtime anyways). </p></blockquote>
<p>That model works well for the asian market and some very specific Western ones (Greece and Spain for example) but isn’t so great for other Western markets.<br />
You know how annoying it is when your party has to sit around waiting because the healer has to go and feed the kids in the middle of a raid or the tank needs to let the dog out RIGHT NOW? Now imagine that it’s not just wasting time but costing you money when they do that.</p></blockquote>
<p>Technically &#8211; right now you are paying for the time that you sleep, work, eat, or whenever you aren&#8217;t even logged into the game.  I actually live in China (not Chinese)- and yes, internet cafe&#8217;s are popular (they are more like dirty slave dungeons).  If you walk around most of them though, it&#8217;s typically starcraft or other games.  Alot of the WoW community here plays from home (not to say you don&#8217;t see WoW at all in the cafe&#8217;s).</p>
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		<title>By: IainC</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-3/#comment-20924</link>
		<dc:creator>IainC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-20924</guid>
		<description>I was mostly taking issue with the assumption that if only CD was implemented then monsters would be more intelligent. Taunts aren&#039;t really the issue, purely a symptom of what Slackjaw was actually talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was mostly taking issue with the assumption that if only CD was implemented then monsters would be more intelligent. Taunts aren&#8217;t really the issue, purely a symptom of what Slackjaw was actually talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Iconic</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-2/#comment-20922</link>
		<dc:creator>Iconic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-20922</guid>
		<description>I posted a response and it seemed to go into the ether.

Anyway, it seems as if slackjaw is talking about the &quot;taunt&quot; mechanic whereby mobs are artificially forced to attack a target that is not the most logical target. 

And he says &quot;well, if/when collision detection exists in a really feasible way, then the taunt mechanic can go away.&quot;

And then you say &quot;No&quot; and then go on to give a paint by numbers example of EXACTLY what slackjaw was saying (or at least the way I interpreted it).

So maybe we&#039;re all disagreeing on what &quot;taunt&quot; is referring to or something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I posted a response and it seemed to go into the ether.</p>
<p>Anyway, it seems as if slackjaw is talking about the &#8220;taunt&#8221; mechanic whereby mobs are artificially forced to attack a target that is not the most logical target. </p>
<p>And he says &#8220;well, if/when collision detection exists in a really feasible way, then the taunt mechanic can go away.&#8221;</p>
<p>And then you say &#8220;No&#8221; and then go on to give a paint by numbers example of EXACTLY what slackjaw was saying (or at least the way I interpreted it).</p>
<p>So maybe we&#8217;re all disagreeing on what &#8220;taunt&#8221; is referring to or something?</p>
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		<title>By: IainC</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-2/#comment-20920</link>
		<dc:creator>IainC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-20920</guid>
		<description>To be clearer, collision detection (or lack of it) is not the reason that monsters and aggro systems work the way they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be clearer, collision detection (or lack of it) is not the reason that monsters and aggro systems work the way they do.</p>
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		<title>By: IainC</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-2/#comment-20919</link>
		<dc:creator>IainC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-20919</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-20918&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Iconic&lt;/a&gt; 
Not really, it&#039;s still the exact same aggro management systems which are seen in pretty much every game.

Monster picks a target based on what the biggest threat is (with healing usually being given a greater weight than DPS)
Monster zeroes in on the highest aggro
Tanks need to move aggro from the squishy healer to themselves 

Simply blocking the mob isn&#039;t a good design solution as that then leads to zero risk encounters. The important thing is aggro movement and currently this is done by the players directly (through taunts/detaunts) as well as by switches in the AI (IF can&#039;t reach target THEN move to next aggro magnet in list).

It&#039;s not a quantum leap, it&#039;s what already happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-20918" rel="nofollow">@Iconic</a><br />
Not really, it&#8217;s still the exact same aggro management systems which are seen in pretty much every game.</p>
<p>Monster picks a target based on what the biggest threat is (with healing usually being given a greater weight than DPS)<br />
Monster zeroes in on the highest aggro<br />
Tanks need to move aggro from the squishy healer to themselves </p>
<p>Simply blocking the mob isn&#8217;t a good design solution as that then leads to zero risk encounters. The important thing is aggro movement and currently this is done by the players directly (through taunts/detaunts) as well as by switches in the AI (IF can&#8217;t reach target THEN move to next aggro magnet in list).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a quantum leap, it&#8217;s what already happens.</p>
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		<title>By: Iconic</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-2/#comment-20918</link>
		<dc:creator>Iconic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-20918</guid>
		<description>Seems as if you just said &quot;No&quot; and then agreed with him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems as if you just said &#8220;No&#8221; and then agreed with him.</p>
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		<title>By: IainC</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-2/#comment-20916</link>
		<dc:creator>IainC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-20916</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;#commentbody-20902&quot;&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-20902&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;slackjaw&lt;/a&gt; :&lt;/strong&gt;
Taunt exists to fill in the blank for where collision dection could/should/will be in the “future”. Once healers can actually hide behind the tank, mobs will permitted to be smarter.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
No.
Taunt is in no way a design substitute for CD. Imagine a mob that wants to eat your healer (because that&#039;s the smart thing to do right?), he can&#039;t get to your healer because Burly McTank and his identical twin brother are blocking his way. So he froths and rails as he tries to scrabble over the tank wall to get to the healer. Meanwhile the McTank brothers and their good friend Seamus O&#039;Stabby are turning him into dogfood without taking any damage in return. So to make the encounter challenging, we tell the monster to put aside his death feud with the healer after a while and concentrate on the guys who are stopping him from getting there. 

Ooh look it&#039;s a taunt system by any other name!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="#commentbody-20902"><p>
<strong><a href="#comment-20902" rel="nofollow">slackjaw</a> :</strong><br />
Taunt exists to fill in the blank for where collision dection could/should/will be in the “future”. Once healers can actually hide behind the tank, mobs will permitted to be smarter.
</p></blockquote>
<p>No.<br />
Taunt is in no way a design substitute for CD. Imagine a mob that wants to eat your healer (because that&#8217;s the smart thing to do right?), he can&#8217;t get to your healer because Burly McTank and his identical twin brother are blocking his way. So he froths and rails as he tries to scrabble over the tank wall to get to the healer. Meanwhile the McTank brothers and their good friend Seamus O&#8217;Stabby are turning him into dogfood without taking any damage in return. So to make the encounter challenging, we tell the monster to put aside his death feud with the healer after a while and concentrate on the guys who are stopping him from getting there. </p>
<p>Ooh look it&#8217;s a taunt system by any other name!</p>
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		<title>By: slackjaw</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/comment-page-2/#comment-20902</link>
		<dc:creator>slackjaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brokentoys.org/?p=3398#comment-20902</guid>
		<description>Taunt exists to fill in the blank for where collision dection could/should/will be in the &quot;future&quot;. Once healers can actually hide behind the tank, mobs will permitted to be smarter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taunt exists to fill in the blank for where collision dection could/should/will be in the &#8220;future&#8221;. Once healers can actually hide behind the tank, mobs will permitted to be smarter.</p>
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