Broken
Toys
Random comments about
games and tractors
Our Legal System Continues To Suffer From Random Drooling
As the latest pool of saliva in point, a patent lawsuit filed against NCsoft for creating MMOs. That’ll show ‘em!
Specifically, the suit claims that NCsoft has infringed on patent 7,181,690, “System and Method for Enabling Users to Interact in a Virtual Space” through its games, including City of Heroes, City of Villains, Dungeon Runners, Exteel, Guild Wars, Lineage, Lineage II, and Tablula Rasa.
This, despite the fact that about 9 seconds of research would turn up quite a few “systems and methods for enabling users to interact in a virtual space” prior to the patent’s filing in 2000 – one of which was even listed in the complaint (Edit: as pointed out in comments, the patent refers to an earlier filing date of 1996 – which just barely precludes most Internet-era MMOs with the exception of Meridian:59 - but there’s still no shortage of earlier titles.)
So why was NCsoft targeted specifically, and not, say, a somewhat larger and more well known company with thousands of slavering lawyers on standby ACHING to take your call? Well, as another lawyer speculated, Texas is like a whole other country.
“Being a foreign defendant in Texas is not a pleasant thing,” he said of NCsoft, which is primarily a Korean company. “The juries are, many would say, biased towards American plaintiffs and have a propensity to offer high damages. Some defendants might view them as an unfriendly jury and it might make the defendant more likely to settle.”
Uh huh. Riiiiight.
Worlds.com, when not targeting frivolous lawsuits on racial grounds, develops branded versions of the antediluvian “ActiveWorlds” system.
This dance happens quite often in the high tech industry – a company with no actual products files ridiculous patents, and then basically blackmails larger companies to take them to court, where (after the appropriate legal fees are paid out by all parties) the patent is thrown out as spurious after a clerk with five minutes of time on Google defines “prior art“.
And that brings us back to East Texas. Spectres of good upstanding Texas cowboys standing up to those uppity Asians raised by the quoted patent lawyer aside, the suit was filed in that district for a somewhat more mercenary reason.
Conditions never have been better for patent pirates. Patent cases in general are getting more expensive and difficult to defend. According to the 2003 American Intellectual Property Lawyers Association Economic Survey, it will cost a defendant in a patent action filed in Texas with between $1 million and $25 million at stake roughly $1.5 million just to get through discovery. Even worse, for that same amount at stake, the defendant is looking at spending more than $2.5 million if it has to go through trial.
OK, so that’s why they’re filing an obviously absurd claim… but why east Texas?
Texas, particularly the Eastern District of Texas, has become a favorite venue of these pirates for two reasons: our judges and our juries. First, many of our federal courts have relatively quick dockets and judges with greater-than-average experience in patent cases. For instance, judges in the Eastern District have dealt with hundreds of patent cases, and some judges have developed special rules for dealing with them. Unlike the Northern District of California, which also has its own patent rules, courts in the Eastern District of Texas typically try to set a trial date in a patent case within 18 months or less from its filing date. This threat of imminent trial is the “gun to the head” that the patent pirate needs to execute his strategy.
Perhaps more important, many in the patent bar know that juries typically have little technical training or knowledge, and often even less interest in technically complex arguments, so they’re not inclined to consider fully the merits of a difficult infringement analysis. Juries in East Texas, unlike those in Houston, Dallas or Austin, are much less likely to have a member with any technical training or education, which exacerbates the problem from the defense perspective, but makes East Texas federal courts an attractive venue for would-be plaintiffs, who know that the jury will, instead, gravitate toward softer or superficial issues that are difficult to predict.
Randy Farmer, one of the developers of Habitat, isn’t too happy either, and retells his last adventure with patent trolls here.
Our legal system: totally awesome.
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about 1 year ago
More like a broken patent system. Do patents benefit anyone these days but corporate lawyers and the giant corporations that wield them? The people who would seem in the most need of them, namely small independent inventors, are those who have the hardest time affording to file patents and defending their patents in court.
about 1 year ago
this is how Akamai is the #1 chache solution provider. Their patents are very broad, basically similar “a system for caching data before it gets to the user”. Then they go after anyone who builds a cache. They tell the company they will settle if instead you buy their product. so most companies realize it’s cheaper to buy their product than defend themselves.
They were suing the last company i was at. We built our own caching system to display videos across the country at all our stores and for salespeople on the road. So Akamai launched their suit saying we were infringing. We were still defending it when I got laid off.
And that’s why they are going after NCSoft, not because everyone in Texas is racist (funny that itself is a prejudicial statement), but because NCSoft is big enough to have money, but small enough to submit to bullying.
about 1 year ago
Actually I do have to admit I talked to a friend in Dallas and he said “east texas? that’s like a whole other country”
about 1 year ago
I really really hate this. At a time when NCSoft is facing significant difficulty, these f**king vultures come out and try to pick up some scraps.
All of this made possible by a patent system which anyone even remotely connected to the software industry knows is an embarressing failure where the lawyers and patent trolls win and everybody else loses. Billions and billions of dollars wasted on this utter crap which produces NOTHING, no innovation, no inventions, no products, NOTHING. In the middle of a global recession no less. I can’t believe how angry this makes me.
Regarding your 9 seconds of google search turning up prior art before 2000 – it’s not that simple, unfortunately. The patent is a “Continuing patent application” from 1996 (specifically, Nov 12, 1996 – see the first page of the patent application and do a keyword search for Continuation).
What this means is that prior art will need to be found before Nov 12, 1996 in order to invalidate the patent. This rules out Everquest.
Another possibility is Meridian 59, which according to wikipedia was published in September of 1996. However, invalidating all of the claims in the patent may be difficult, and will no doubt be very expensive at a time where NCSoft can ill afford it.
I know it probably won’t happen, but I would LOVE for Blizzard and Sony to get behind NCSoft on this and fight it. They have the resources and the sharks to crush this pissy little company. It would be in their best interests to do so – a ruling against NCSoft would make it much easier for findings to be then made against both Blizzard and SOE, which is of course the plan.
The entire industry needs to stand up to these bullshit tactics and bankrupt these blood suckers for good.
about 1 year ago
As for the issue of prior art in 1996 as opposed to 2000:
Leaving aside M59 which also released in 1996, the pre-Internet Compuserve/QuantumLink games such as Air Warrior, Habitat and Neverwinter Nights all date from the late 80s and meet most of the prior art guidelines handily (all if you count 2.5D… Air Warrior was true 3D).
ActiveWorlds was pretty revolutionary for its time, but these guys had little to do with it, they bought out the makers and have been trying to monetize it since.
about 1 year ago
From 1996, there’s also “NEXUS: The Kingdom of the Winds”.
And if the patent is about “a system for interaction between a plurality of users in a three-dimensional, computer-generated graphical space where the system includes at least one server coupling a plurality of clients where each client addresses a client display”, wouldn’t that definition include games beyond MMOs? I know Quake was released about june or july 1996.
about 1 year ago
Quake wasn’t client/server until QuakeWorld, I believe, so that wouldn’t count.
about 1 year ago
Canda ftw. Two words, “loser pays”.
about 1 year ago
@Dave G.
Actually a verdict against NCSoft would have no precedential effect against either Blizzard or Sony. If Worlds.com wishes to challenge those companies it would have to do so in a separate suit, inventing the wheel again. Of course, Blizzard and Sony could always seek to intervene in this suit, or file for declaratory judgments in more tech-friendly districts, such as NoCal, to seek an invalidation of the patent.
about 1 year ago
More like a broken patent system. Do patents benefit anyone these days but corporate lawyers and the giant corporations that wield them?
Patents benefit you. Drug makers, and Medical Device manufacturers need patents. Without patents the scum of the earth would steal all of our ideas.
Ah Air Warrior… I played AW on GEnie in 1989,1990ish.
about 1 year ago
The have no chance to win. =)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldsAway
about 1 year ago
Anytime someone brings up the old Kesmai titles, or Habitat, I have to smile. Especially if they bring up both.
Oh poo, it’s about some dumb patent. Damn you patent trolls. *shakes fist into the air*
about 1 year ago
Ahh, patent trolls. So easy to hate. It costs almost no effort to despise them, watching their disgusting little pickpocket attempt in broad daylight. Hate, hate, hate.
about 1 year ago
@Scott Jennings
I’m fairly certain that NetQuake (the multiplayer mode in original Quake) would count – it was client / server. Even qtest (the multiplayer-only pre-release demo) was client/server – the big thing QuakeWorld added was client side prediction (which you kinda needed if you had any packet loss or a ping over 50 ms).
about 1 year ago
Yep, changing to a ‘loser pays’ system would clear up a LOT of frivolous lawsuits. Too bad the lawyer lobby will NEVER let this happen.
about 1 year ago
If pre-release builds count, I was pre-alpha… ing?… Ultima Online in April and May of 1996. Another prior art client/server mmo to the list.
about 1 year ago
Would games like Everquest and DAOC count? I read that Mark Jacobs is or was a lawyer and some point and I find it hard to believe he would infringe on a patent.
about 1 year ago
Canada also has judges throw out frivolous lawsuits with the plaintiff paying court costs. I can’t understand how the US puts up with such a broken system, but I guess the lawyer lobby is just that strong.
about 1 year ago
@Njal
Sounds more like Canada ftl to me. Loser pays might sound nice in some situations, until you realize that you as an individual would never take the risk of recovering your $5000 by getting your insurance company to properly pay your medical bills because if their high-paid lawyers outmaneuver you (or your lawyer just sucks since you don’t have oodles of money) you’d lose your house and the clothes on your back.
about 1 year ago
Heh, yeah sometimes individuals get a raw deal. I’m sure that never happens under the US system though. I think the benefits of our system are greater than the downside.
However since IANAL and have never really gotten involved with the courts my understanding is pretty rudimentary.
about 1 year ago
Loser pays system will be good, except it should be the loser should pay a certain percentage of their claim. This way the big company can not use their high priced lawyers to shake off legit law suits, and it help to clam down on the astronomical price tags on some lawsuits.
about 1 year ago
Why NCsoft? That’s easy. It’s the slowest gazelle in the AAA MMOG pack and will put up the least fight. There is no way they want to take on the Sony or Activision/Blizzard legal teams. Their only other alternative might have been Turbine.
about 1 year ago
I think that NCsoft should be able to counter-sue for court charges and lawyer fees once this frivalous suit gets tossed out on its ear.
but then again this IS Texas, and y’never know they might just vote in favor of the bloodsuckers.
about 1 year ago
@Ashendarei
Anyone seen the client listing for worlds.com??
3rd client down….Sony…
about 1 year ago
The whole patent system is a joke.
You can patent a naturally occurring gene you find in someone elses body – that is absurd.
The mechanisms(as shown in this thread) for sorting out patents are absurd.
Anyone defending the US patent system doesnt understand it. We do need A patent system – but not the one we have.
about 1 year ago
Small claims courts would be ideal medium for sub-$10K, they have provisions limiting amounts loser pays, making self-representation really attractive, and have provisions that encourage settlements.
That and “insurance pay your medical bill” idiocy is strictly limited to US, Canada has universal medicare for everybody at no cost.
about 1 year ago
It’s not just Texas, it’s Marshall, Texas.
Home of George Foreman and his sons, George, George, George and George.
about 1 year ago
@Memnock
Ultima Online doesn’t count because the claims all apply to a 3D client/server world. I’m not sure if UO is 3D now, but it most definitely wasn’t the last time I played in 2000.
Another thing to keep in mind is that it’s not enough for a 3D game to simply ‘exist’ before the filing. That 3D game must specifically be demonstrated to implement the features described in the claims of the patent (thus, even if UO WERE 3D, it would still not be valid, as UO does not selectively display avatars – it always displays as many as exist in the players field of view).
This also rules out Quake for sure since, by it’s nature, Quake must display all avatars within line of sight at all times (otherwise you’d have invisible people shooting at you).
We can have many different games or programs which chip away at the claims one by one. But each of the claims needs to be specifically defeated in some way.
about 1 year ago
Anyone defending the US patent system doesnt understand it. We do need A patent system – but not the one we have.
Please, feel free to suggest a BETTER PATENT SYSTEM for a free market society. Oh, please suggest one of the Asian systems or perhaps the awesome system used in the EU! Go for it.
Let me simplify this. I think you are full of shit. You don’t even know what is wrong with the system we have now. Let alone how to improve it.
about 1 year ago
No your a shit head(my response)
No your a shit head(your next response)
No your a shit head(my response to your response)
Isnt that nice.
Anyway.
A better system is one where youmay not patent that a synthesis of existing concepts.
A better system is one in which juries can not be involved until after a patent office makes a determination for starters.
A better system is one in which the patent office is better funded so they deal with patents more quickly.
A better system is one where you can not patent a discovery of anything naturally occurring.
So yes our system sucks and some basic obvious changes would improve it greatly.
about 1 year ago
@Dave G
*bonks self on forehead*
Thanks for that clarification, Dave. I had obviously misunderstood the selective displaying of avatars bit. I guess it’s a testament to those early online games ability to fire the imagination in that, when you noted that UO wasn’t 3D, my brain’s first reaction was “Wait, it wasn’t?”. Damn I miss the old UO…
*Entering Brintannia…*
about 1 year ago
I’ve been a legal expert on a patent defense case involving another case against Sony a few years back. It’s one of the things that got me looking at the legal side of game development.
A few things to note.
Since the patent in question is a continuation of a previous patent filing, the best thing to do is to attack the previous patent. That means you have to look at a lot of the much older virtual worlds out there.
“Prior art” is a funny thing. The best prior art is that which existed a year before the filing date. Meridian 59 doesn’t qualify as this better standard for prior art in this case, but there are other products that do. Note that the release date is the important one for a lot of court decisions; even though M59 existed as a project before it’s launch date, the game had to be released.
The bit about East Texas that Scott mentions above is correct. The best thing we could do to prevent patent foolishness would be to have technology re-education camps in East Texas. Any volunteers?
One of the more frustrating things about this is that the suits almost never go to court. A lawsuit represents risk, and it’s often better to settle to keep costs down rather than get into a lawsuit with a potentially uncertain outcome. Usually the plaintiffs are all too willing to settle, since a loss would hurt them bad. Better to have a shaky settlement than a definite loss.
I figure they’re going after NCSoft due to their recent, high-profile financial problems. If NCSoft settles for, say, $1 million (pulling a number out of my nether regions), that’s the minimum cost for a real patent defense, but it’s a huge chunk of change for the patent holder to fund lawsuits against even larger companies. Now imagine if Sony and Blizzard chip in a few more million each instead of defending themselves fully, and you can see why this type of behavior is so damned profitable.
about 1 year ago
I’m not convinced that patents on drugs help me. Patents on drugs mean:
1) Potential cures that cannot be patented will not be researched as you can never recover the costs. Thus, we will (and have) ignored promising cures purely because they don’t have a patentable component.
2) It directs energy at the development of new cures rather than making existing cures cheaper. With health care consuming a large fraction of the GDP now, do we really want, as a society, to discover newer and more expensive cures?
If there were no patents on drugs:
a) Strong incentives to reduce the cost of manufacture will drive raw drug costs for existing treatments down.
b) The current approval process for new drugs would need to be changed – it is hideously expensive. Likely reverse it so the FDA actually pays the for the tests. As an added bonus, the incentive to falsely make tests succeed is reduced (since the submitters aren’t footing the bill). Paying for drug testing from the public purse rather than the stock market will greatly reduce the amount of money available and thus likely reduce the number of new drugs approved.
c) New drugs will still be researched. I assure you, lots of really rich people want to see cancer, etc, cured. Quite likely at a significantly reduced rate, which will suck when I need the million dollar treatment that wasn’t invented yet, but in some ways it beats being told there *is* a million dollar treatment, but “too bad, you can’t afford it, nyah nyah!”
d) Less distortion of academia. The academic researchers can go back to focusing on basic research and addressing needs they see necessary (say, malaria?) rather than hyper focusing on the things with giant pharmaceutical grants sitting over them.
I used to hold out pharmaceuticals as a place where patents work, but with more thought I realize that patents are a form of socialization. You are using the free-market powers to efficiently develop drugs in exchange for giving up those free-market powers for making drug manufacture efficient. Yet we know the latter problem is better suited to the free market.
As for software patents, it is false to say those billions of dollars in lawsuit costs are “wasted” or “lost”. They all lined a lot of lawyer’s pockets. And since judges and lawyers are the ones we get to tug a forelock to and beg for the removal of such patents, I’m not holding my breath on them disappearing.
about 1 year ago
A bit off topic, but Brask’s last post was as well, and this a minor response to it.
“(say, malaria?)” There is a definite way to reduce malaria outbreak; Spray the walls of houses in mosquito\malaria ridden nations with DDT. Scientists have already worked it out. Between vaccines and effective pest removal; the life end of the life to death ratio will hugely increase.
Good job killing people, greenies.
Again, this is just a digression.
about 1 year ago
A better system is one where youmay not patent that a synthesis of existing concepts.
That’s just silly. From basic mechanical devices to the laws of thermal dinamics to basic chemistry, everything is a conglomeration of exixting concepts.
A better system is one in which juries can not be involved until after a patent office makes a determination for starters.
/sigh
A better system is one in which the patent office is better funded so they deal with patents more quickly.
You want to increase the cost of a patent? Is the sytem slow now? How long does it take to get a patent now on average?
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/provapp.htm
A better system is one where you can not patent a discovery of anything naturally occurring.
I can’t patent the next Penicillin?
about 1 year ago
Save the people kill the world.
about 1 year ago
Totaly off topic but…
“IANAL”
I am horrified to find out there is an established online acronym I am expected to know for “I Am Not A Lawyer” however that horror is offset by the fact that the person who ends up USING this acronym is saying “I anal” Which alows me to giggle in a childish fashion when they choose to inflict another idiotic internet phrase shortening acronym on me.
about 1 year ago
Its not silly.
Its not silly and that doesnt even make sense. If I invent a new paint and say its great for cars you shouldnt be allowed to patent the idea of putting it on houses. If you come up with a unique way to apply the paint on the other hand you should be allowed to patent that.
And yes if you happen to find a new antibiotic growing in nature you shouldnt be allowed to patent it. Although it should b noted that the pennicillium we use is the one originally found in nature. It was mutated and modified to its current state.
Either you are one of the leaches on society that profits by the current system or you are a clueless kid looking to argue.
about 1 year ago
OK. I’ll help you. You are confusing a tort issue with a patent issue.
Regards,
D-0ne
about 1 year ago
That one want in response to you. Im not sure how it confused you but what ever.
about 1 year ago
I think this is one of the hard problems that no solution would be good enough. The best solution might be force a loser pay partial damage court system on patents.
And for DDT, I sort of favor the ban. There might be more people dieing now, but you never know what the long term effect of DDT is. Sort of like global warming. Anyone with a brain and some research will know it has became a hoax, but we still have to conserve fuel because you never know what might happen next.
about 1 year ago
There is no ban. The whole story about a “ban on DDT” that’s supposedly killing all those poor third-worlders because of the Evil Greenies is a complete pack of lies from start to finish, made up by the same right-wing noise machine that came up with global warming denialism. DDT has never been banned; it’s still being used where it would help; using it any more (as the RWNM argue for) would be counterproductive (by helping mosquitos develop resistance).
about 1 year ago
Mosquitos will develop a resistance to DDT. However, it can be minimized. A stop-gap measure can certainly be effective.
Also, do you value human life so little that you’re fine with one million people dying per year, for no reason, instead of hundreds? I’d much rather more people were alive. How is it counter-productive to save more lives in the present?
This isn’t a right\left conundrum. DDT keeps people alive.
There is a ban in accordance with the Stockholm Convention, vector control is barely used in third world countries. Tell Bill Gates to stop purchasing nets and start removing the mosquito threat.
about 1 year ago
Always have to bring your own brand of crazy into any random discussion.
about 1 year ago
I wish out justice system wasn’t so complicated.
Wouldn’t it be nice if they could just duel it out with D20s or something?
Or go back to an earlier system. Tie the plaintiff and defendant to rocks and throw them in the river. The one who floats is the winner.
Of course, then they need to be burned at the stake as a witch.
I didn’t say it was perfect, just easier…
about 1 year ago
There may technically be no ban on DDT, but Europe won’t buy food from any African country that uses DDT on even one farm. It also won’t buy food from any African country that has even one GMO farm. So no there’s no ban, Europe just extorts Africa and keeps it poor.
about 1 year ago
[quote]Also, do you value human life so little that you’re fine with one million people dying per year, for no reason, instead of hundreds?[/quote]
Sure, if we can wave away all the negative effects of DDT use with a “for no reason” in our hypothetical fantasy land then the choice does become simple. Our real world is much more complex.
http://info-pollution.com/ddtban.htm
[quote]DDT keeps people alive.[/quote]
DDT is a toxin. Look at what it does to mosquitoes for the first hint. Any toxin must be carefully weighed against the consequences before we mass produce it and dump it into our world.
about 1 year ago
Bit off topic but I’m having trouble seeing the comments on this post. If I follow the link from the ‘recent comments’ section, I just get the post and the comments tab but none of the comments show up no matter what I do. If I click on the ‘## comments’ link at the top of the post instead then sometimes the comments will actually display. Checked other posts and the comments show up fine there no matter how I go to them.
about 1 year ago
“DDT is a toxin.”
BIOMAGNIFICATION IS A LIE!
about 1 year ago
“Bit off topic but I’m having trouble seeing the comments on this post.”
Don’t worry about it, you’re not missing much.
about 1 year ago
Before you call me crazy please do some research. I had a discussion on theforge sometimes ago, http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/21/virtual-hell/#comments
It is funny that when some people heard about there is no warming, they instantly think it is crazy talk.
about 1 year ago
This is a double whammy.
Abusive patent litigation.
AND
Forum shopping.
-Michael
Muckbeast – Game Design and Virtual Worlds
http://www.muckbeast.com
about 1 year ago
Seriously though…. DDT, GlobalWarming… lol what a pack of lies.. next thing you know they will be telling us that smoking tobacco causes cancer!!
about 1 year ago
This kind of stuff really needs to end, sooner than later. Hopefully this will end the same way the SCO thing ended, but before NCSoft wastes millions on legal fees.
about 1 year ago
Worlds .com has been running a Marie Celeste style Ground Zero for over 5 years now, giving away free VIP membership to keep the folks habitting the place. The sole purpose being to maintain the lie that Worlds,com ihas some virility left in its stone dead carcase.
This and the fact that continual opperation, even in the absence of any revenue, allows debts to wiped off after a period of time, to which some $£million has been erased and taken as posted as income in their financial returns. The main purpose however was not debt liquidation but patent protection with an eye to the future.
last year they took on board dome new high flying board members at no reward but stock options. Penny stock worth around 15cents on average. but very much more if the patent can be protected and then asserted then the new directors from the on line gambling world will have quite a sweet reward for their ‘gamble’
In enhancement of this Worlds took on board a further Director with proven experience in developing business with google.
They have bidden their time well and have launched this suite with all the averice of the Carpert Baggers of old.
A quite cynical attempt at exploting patent law for which I doubt they have any scruples.
The defendants could do worse than demand access in open court to the records of Worlds.com in it’s bribary of free VIP, as a prize, in the absence of any membership revenue, as being a fairly good indication that the business model was defunct and that this case is no more than suing a successful company for World.com’s failures.