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How To Stop Gold Farming
Link 1: Mark Jacobs describes the “naming and shaming” Warhammer is doing re: gold farmers Link 2: Syp, Warhammer blogger, on the above link, with his own take Link 3: Tobold on the above 2 links, with his own take Link 4: Michael Zenke on the above 3 links, with his own take
This was something that very much was a worry on the project I was working on at NCsoft. From a professional standpoint, the type of game we were working on (fantasy MMO, free to play, mass market) would have been very attractive to gold farmers. From a personal standpoint, like Mark Jacobs, as a player I was sick of gold spam and as a developer I was profoundly sick of leeches profiting from hurting games I worked on. So this was something I wanted to solve. And because I am an egotistical bastard, I worked from the assumption that I could. And since I’m now currently out of the MMO business, I thought I’d share some of the brainstorming I did, if for no other reason than smarter folks like you could tell me how full of it I am.
Warning: something about this post will piss you off. Just prepare for it and deal with it.
Postulate: RMT = Vice
Vice in the real world includes such happy subjects as drug sales and prostitution. Some people argue that they are victimless crimes. Others argue that they are signs of moral decay. Still others argue that aside from any moral implications they are damaging to society as a whole. But what is not inarguable is that there is a market for drugs and prostitution, regardless of their legal status. People are willing to break the law to buy and sell vice. It should not surprise us that the same holds true in online games. In online games that follow the high-fantasy kill things get points model, the vice is shortcuts. People will buy the points in lieu of killing things. This is not up for debate. It will happen. People will do it. You cannot stop it, because you cannot stop the human desire for vice.
The first decision: Prohibition or Legalization
This is clear cut, but will have significant impact on your game design and your support costs, whichever decision you take. Do you, as part of your design, prohibit or enable the buying and/or selling of in-game assets for real-world cash?
Most Western MMO players will insist on prohibition. This is the “moral” position. Gold farming is cheating, cheating is wrong, players should not cheat, we will not enable cheating. And since most MMO developers are also MMO players, this is by default the decision they take as well. As Syp put it:
The problem lies with Mike[, a friend who purchased gold], and people like him. People who have no sense of morality or honor in online games. People who go ahead and buy gold to be instantly gratified, and a lesser extent, friends that see them do this and say nothing.
Those players will be enraged if you make the decision to legalize. Many of them will simply not play your game because of that one decision. Yet there are many players who will buy and sell in-game assets for real-world cash. And some of them are the same players telling you they will not play if you make that decision legal. Because it’s vice. And few admit to vice.
There is also the point that if you legalize RMT, you can make the effort to control it – and in so doing profit from it. Again, this will be considered evil by your players, and probably by many of your developers. Will you make a decision based on gaming morality to not serve a market for your game?
If you are a free-to-play MMO, the decision is a bit looser, because you’re not making money off subscription fees, so the perception that you are greedy bastards trying to soak your players through in-game exploitation is less. (It will still exist. But it will be lessened.) And it also provides a revenue source for your game to actually exist. That’s kind of important, too.
To date, most subscription MMOs (all but Ultima Online and special Everquest 2 servers) have made the decision for prohibition. This is popular with their users (see the reaction to Warhammer’s naming and shaming) but is costly – someone has to stop all those gold farmers. The extreme example of prohibition is probably World of Warcraft, which has the operational budget to afford a truly massive customer service organization which has as a priority finding and banning gold farmers, and has gone to great lengths to automatically detect and suppress gold spamming in-game.
Yet it still happens. People still farm gold in World of Warcraft, still advertise it via means subtle and gross. Prohibition will never win. You will simply spend a given amount of money, and in turn gain a given level of suppression. That suppression will never reach 100%.
Which, again, should not be a surprise, since in the real world despite the huge budgets and judicial powers given agencies like the DEA, vice in the real world still exists. You cannot legislate the marketplace out of existence. You can suppress it, much as the Soviet Union tried to suppress their own free market. But there will be costs, and if you do not pay those costs, the reaction from your players will be that your game is overrun with farmers and spammers and that you just don’t care. To quote Michael Zenke:
It’s 2008, and if you are still getting spammed by goldfarmers in-game it’s because the game developers want you to be. It’s as simple as that.
That is the perception you face. The players not only expect you to enact prohibition, they expect it to work. Which cannot happen. And when it does not happen, you will be blamed.
So, given all that, I made the decision for legalization. Which went against my every impulse as an MMO player, and my sense of self righteous fury as an MMO developer. Oddly enough, that was the most difficult part of the process – simply making the decision that we would not play King Canute at the beach.
Which, once you make that decision, leads into how.
The second decision: Arbiter or Dealer
Just because you have decided upon the legalization of vice does not mean that you immediately start issuing your players with free Heroin Injection Kits upon first login. In fact, now that the decision is made, you actually have to juggle what is a pretty classic game design problem: the illusion of free will.
Namely: you want the players to take an action, and you want them to think they made the decision to take that action, and you want them to take the action that results in moving the game forward. If that process is fun, you’re on the road to a fun game.
Legislated RMT is similar. You want the following to happen:
- You control the in-game economy
- You control what players are buying and selling
- You influence the rates that players buy and sell at
- You discourage other third parties from controlling these transactions
- You profit from the transaction
There are valid reasons for all of these, and hopefully they are fairly self-evident – you want to control the game because you have a financial, professional and hopefully personal interest in its long term success. You discourage third parties because they do not share those interests and will encourage actions (such as gold farming) that will harm your game’s long term success.
Once you accept these reasons, the RMT transactions you foster organically follow. For example: you can’t directly sell in-game currency. Because if you do, you lose control of the in-game economy – the value of your game’s currency will deflate if people can just hit a lever and pump out gold. There are ways around this, but they involve an arms race of gold sinks that alienate your newer players and take over the economy of the game.
So instead of a dealer, you are an arbiter. You don’t create gold out of ether (well, your game does, but that’s another design discussion). You are instead the trusted broker who manages the buying and selling between players.
Luckily, the most effective way to do this is a solved problem. It’s called the dual currency model, and Matt Mihaly of Iron Realms/Sparkplay Media has what is probably the most coherent writeup of the design (primarily because it’s his company’s business model and has been for years.)
Then it occurred to me, in early ‘99: Everyone can get what he wants here. Simply turn credits into a currency and allow players to trade one currency (credits) for another (gold). Everybody wins!
* Paying User buys credits from Iron Realms, giving Iron Realms what it wants – revenue.
* Paying User sells those credits to Non-Paying User for gold, giving both Paying User and Non-Paying User what they want (the essence of healthy capitalism).
Effectively, what we did was allow non-paying players to sell the result of their time (through completing activities that require time, like quests and hunting) to the paying players, but only via a currency that had to be purchased from us to begin with. Suddenly, the teenager with lots of free time but not a lot of money could get anything in the game that paying players could get, and a busy professional who has disposable income but not nearly as much free time could gain large amounts of gold without having to spend the time in-game. (Of course, it’s important that paying players still have to play the game to achieve something that matters. There has to be some time investment on everybody’s part.) It was a win for everybody.
Go read all of it, it’s good and if you’ve made the decision to legalize, you will need to take notes. In fact, when he wrote that blog post, I sent him an email cursing him, because when the game I was working on came out, people would say I lifted our dual currency model from that blog post wholesale, because I had come to the same conclusions. Save one element – which Matt briefly alluded to in his post, and what I thought was going to be the ‘secret sauce’ that would finally drive a stake in third party gold farming. Which I’ll just cut to the chase now and tell all of you, because I’m nice like that.
The third decision: The ‘Secret Sauce’ (hint: it’s thousand island dressing!)
Even though I had come to terms with legalization, I had most definitely NOT come to terms with the more negative aspects of that legalization – specifically, gold farming/spamming/etc. I most definitely did not want that in our game. Yet with the dual currency model, we were not only enabling farming, we were ENCOURAGING it!
So. Why do people buy money from gold farmers? Simple – they want gold. Simple enough, right? They want gold badly enough to purchase it from bad actors.
Yet – the dual currency model also has within it the solution. As Matt wrote, one of the benefits of this model, ideally, is that it allows for a free market to develop between time-starved players with real-world wealth, and time-rich players without real-world wealth. The dual currency model allows this market to develop WITHIN the game, while in games with a single currency model, this market develops OUTSIDE the game (because the dual currency becomes, say, WoW gold and US dollars).
So, the ‘secret sauce’. Set up a special auction interface, ONLY for the exchange of in-game currency and RMT currency. Allow players to place buy and sell orders freely, one for the other.
But -
- do not allow the players to know who is placing those buy and sell orders within the auction interface
- enforce through the game rules that the ONLY place to exchange RMT currency between characters is that auction interface
A blind auction. ENABLE the free market of in-game and RMT currency between the game’s players. But DISABLE the ability for players to assign an out-of-game worth to that currency, outside of your own storefront.
(By the way, I’m under no delusion that a blind marketplace in MMOs is in any way original.)
Now, of course, there is no realistic way, no matter what controls you place on RMT currency trading between players, of stopping out-of-game trading completely. Even if players cannot physically trade the currency, they simply will trade whatever the currency can buy and use that. Remember: prohibition does not work.
However, my belief – and this may well be false – is that enlightened self-interest does in fact work, and given the choice between patronizing other players and bad actors for RMT sales, players will patronize other players.
And that, I believe, would completely devastate the third party markets because there was no financial interest for that free market to develop external to the game.
It would not only slow gold farming, it would KILL it.
And that was what I wanted. Because as a developer I was profoundly sick of leeches profiting from hurting games I worked on. I wanted gold farming KILLED. And I was convinced this plan would work, and I could kill gold farming in our game.
Told you I was egotistical.
| Print article |
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about 1 year ago
*excellent* post [mr. burns voice]
I agree in every way. Airtight arguments to satisfy all but the staunchest of socialists.
about 1 year ago
Aside from the false promise of pissing me off in some way, I like it.
about 1 year ago
As the recent time card changes in Eve showed, the relationship between ISK and USD is relatively stable. When the 30d/90d time cards were replaced with more expensive (in USD) 60d cards, the dollar to ISK rate stayed constant even as the RMT currency became devalued. Because the amount of time it takes to farm a fixed amount of ISK stayed constant through the change this is strong evidence that the market was setting the price of ISK (or units of in game time) -> dollars independent of the dual currency.
Gold farmers will drive down the cost of acquiring in game currency due to their greater efficiency per man hour. Since the market is really pricing the time cost (in USD) of farming in game money, it will drive the price down to the point where it will no longer be worth it for players to sell their gold since the rate of return will be too low (an hour of farming yields a dollar of return or other low amount). This will dry up the “authorized” market and drive people to the out of game black market.
about 1 year ago
Eve’s time card model isn’t really a dual currency scheme because it’s gray market to a degree – there’s no enforcement but no endorsement, and more importantly no infrastructure for players to reliably buy/sell ISK/time cards within the game. (Correct me if I’m wrong on any of this please, I don’t play Eve).
Whereas with a blind auction system the players themselves are setting the gold -> $/credit valuation, so if the value of gold is percieved to deflate, that will reflect itself in the auction prices.
about 1 year ago
Excellent post. This is the best way (an open system, free market) to solve the problems for players who don’t have time, and it will kill in game gold spams (because everyone will go to AH).
However, I disagree with you on several aspects:
1 “DISABLE the ability for players to assign an out-of-game worth to that currency”. By open an auction house, players are assign an out of game worth to the currency. And your in game/out game exchange rate is now determined by real world supply/demand. Which is good by the way.
2. Too bad it won’t kill gold farmers. It will create an open market for gold farmer’s to compete, and as a result, lowering gold cost
This is because gold farmers will now farm in open and no longer has costs of account banning.
3. It won’t solve the problem of bots or power leveling service. People will want to level faster. You just have to create another system of auction off levels, where the auctioneer is you. Just set the min prices the same as the best power leveling services. Players will trust you so they will buy it from you even if your price is higher.
To really kill the farmers, you HAVE to auction off gold you made off the air. Because the farmers will not be able to compete with inserts/updates to your database. And your provide the dual currency auction system, where legit players can sell off their gold when they have too much at below market price.
The problem with money sinks can be solve with Blizzard’s inn system. You can let players park their toon in inns and by doing that increasing their ‘ration’, and the prices of in game items is in reverse of players ration. The higher the ration, the cheaper the goods. This way if some player was so busy who can’t player that often, they can always park their toon in the inn.
about 1 year ago
just a note, blizzard’s inn system right now will give you better leveling rates.
about 1 year ago
Your “secret sauce” seems to be a close copy of the “KidTrade” system that F. Randall Farmer proposed at State of Play II in October 2004:
http://thefarmers.org/Habitat/2004/10/kidtrade_a_design_for_an_ebayr.html
about 1 year ago
I disagree with the nay-sayers above. Sure, there will be some farmers that will attempt to get into the market and the prices will go down, but there are still other players that have too much time and too much gold for them to be driven out of the market. Remember these players aren’t – in theory – collecting gold for sale, they’re hard-core players that look at the bank full of gold they aren’t really using and figure they might as well do something with it. As the price drops it will drive out the gold farmers before it drives out those players.
That does depend on one factor, though: money sinks. The more money sinks your game has, the less likely the hard-core players are going to have too much money on their hands and the more likely it is that the farmers will stay. With a economic designed as Scott has outlined it, aggressive money sinks are BAD. Keep the money sinks few and the gold market will be loose enough to kill the farmers.
about 1 year ago
Allen: isn’t KidTrade’s key focus the lack of a currency? But yes, I don’t think anyone is going to seriously credit me with inventing blind auctions.
about 1 year ago
There isn’t an in game method, but they have a hokey customer service based enforcement mechanism where the buy and seller have to post on their time card forum. Admittedly your proposal would make great strides in usability and ease of enforcement.
The players were setting the gold/RMT credit/real money valuation in Eve. The market was highly liquid and attempts to drop or manipulate prices nearly always failed due to the sheer volume of the market.
In order to give a separate value to RMT currency, has to be able to grant the ability to do something in the game space that RL currency doesn’t offer. Obviously paying for a subscription alone, a la the timecard model, doesn’t cut it.
about 1 year ago
Eve’s Game Time Card trading does not have an in-game exchange directly, but the only legitimate place to trade cards for currency is on the Eve website, using the same login credentials as your in game account.
Card or code purchased from CCP store or Shattered Realms or whatever.
Offer to buy/sell are posted on Eve-O forums, using in game account login.
Transaction processed through Eve website – seller of code inputs offer/price details in website, purchaser gets in-game Email (EVEmail) outlining details of offer, hits accept.
Transactions outside of official channels can result in banstick, often the buyer just finds that all that currency he bought has disappeared. And it’s tricky making back a negative 1 Billion balance =).
about 1 year ago
Recent IM traffic:
[2:48 PM] him: you implied that you came up with it by yourself instead of acknowledging that someone much more beardy than you came up with it a long long time ago
[2:49 PM] me: but… I *did* come up with it myself
[2:49 PM] me: by, you know, researching the work of beardy people
[2:49 PM] me: OH WAIT I MUST BE 100% ORIGINAL
[2:49 PM] me: FINE
[2:50 PM] me: OUR ECONOMY WILL BE BASED ON MAPLE SYRUP
[2:50 PM] me: YOU HAVE TO SEND IN A KEG OF MAPLE SYRUP TO BUY GOLD
[2:50 PM] me: THERE, DONE
[2:50 PM] me: I’m posting this.
about 1 year ago
Addition – when seller inputs offer/price info, the time code is inputted as well, and validated before the offer is sent to the buyer.
about 1 year ago
Maple syrup doesn’t come in kegs, it comes in tins. Good Lord man, pressurized maple syrup?!? Who is in the market for that?!
about 1 year ago
Who isn’t?
Maple Syrup Keg stands FTW!
about 1 year ago
Oh yea, my favorite part of this article is that the title is about stopping gold farming, but the cure is actually just to embrace it.
Which works just fine, once you get players to buy into it.
about 1 year ago
Your model, including your secret sauce, is exactly what Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates has on their Doubloon Oceans. Doubloons are bought from Y!PP, Pieces of Eight (gold) is earned by playing the game, and to buy some things you need just Doubloons, and for some things you need just Pieces of Eight, and for others still you need both. There is a blind auction system where Doubloons and Pieces of Eight can be traded.
It is a system that works very well.
about 1 year ago
Yep, Puzzle Pirates was definitely an inspiration – Three Rings are smart cookies. (I didn’t know they had done a blind auction, which I suppose makes the “secret sauce”-style commentary even more ironic than I intended. I thought they enabled direct Doubloon trading for some reason.)
Dual currency systems are a solved problem – they work well in Y!PP, Iron Realm’s text muds, and other free to play games. It hasn’t been done yet in subscription games (aside from Eve’s sort-of model) because of the perception/fact of double dipping.
about 1 year ago
How is your secret sauce any different than what Puzzle Pirates has been doing for a while now?
Also, it sucks that we didn’t talk more at NC, I was championing a very similar system for my project to get away from the optional subscription model. It would have been nice to team up
about 1 year ago
Hooray for simultaneous posting… Never mind
about 1 year ago
I’ve edited the story a tad to make it more clear that I’m not trying to take credit for the concept of a commodities exchange, which sort of detracts from the whole point of the blog post (the thought process/development effort necessary in dealing with RMT).
I am totally claiming 100% credit for the Maple Syrup Economy, however.
about 1 year ago
So this is all part of a secret NAFTA protocol to move the world’s centre of gold farming from China to Canada, then?
about 1 year ago
Your title really should’ve been “Dr. Strangelum or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the RMT”
I’m a bit… disappointed in your change of heart over rmt. I’m kinda glad you aren’t making that mmo now, so whatever. Now some dev who wants rmt can steal your idea.
I still think this “prohibition” on rmt can be perfected, but would require some very unconventional designs.
about 1 year ago
I actually completely agree with this whole line of thought and have been actively perusing ways of integrating some of these ideas into a game design document I’ve been working on for a while now (years it seems).
As you said, prohibition simply doesn’t work. But I’m not convinced that dealing doesn’t work, too. I don’t really want to talk about it publicly but I think I’ve come up with a good way to keep inflation to a minimum while providing a method to sell gold to the players of the game.
It’s market and game driven, and doesn’t rely on anyone in particular to shoulder the weight of farming gold to provide to other players, at least not directly. It DOES provide people with large amounts of time a return on their investment. It will definitely be interesting to people who want to play the game lots but don’t have money to spend on it.
Anyway, it’s very refreshing to see this kind of discussion as opposed to the traditional “ban gold sellers” philosophy, which I regard as tantamount to putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “LALALALALA” as loud as you can.
I’d love to see further discussion of this.
about 1 year ago
Your secret sauce of blind exchanges between dual currencies is exactly what Puzzle Pirates has been doing for years. Mihaly even helped James establish that system. Am I missing something?
Like, I think you’re right… but there’s nothing secret about it. Unless people forgot to play PP. Shame on them!
about 1 year ago
This also sounds like the (very successful) donation system that Kingdom of loathing runs on. Although KoL is something of a fringe case in that the game doesn’t break when some players are decked out in donation gear and others aren’t.
There’s one part I’m not clear on though – what purpose does the secret sauce serve? Why must the trade of RMT tokens and “gold” be through one particular channel and blind to boot?
Out of game value of the RMT token is never going to vary from what you charge at the company storefront because there’s no other way to create them than the investment of $x.xx. Or am I misreading your emphasis?
about 1 year ago
Ignore my post, I missed the PP discussion earlier in the thread, shame on me for not refreshing the page before commenting!
about 1 year ago
I didn’t help Dan establish the system so much as Dan just took what we were doing at Iron Realms and implemented it themselves (with my blessing, not that anyone needs it to use that system). I’ve always been pleased to see it works just as well on PP and that it wasn’t some fluke specific to our games.
The one thing I’m unsure about is whether PP has the scale to be considered a proper test. I’m unsure if they’re really reached the scale where they attract an eco system of $$ motivated professional gold sellers. Iron Realms hasn’t, certainly, but PP is bigger. I’m just not certain that PP is “bigger enough” that the lack of gold farming can be attributed to the dual currency exchange rather than the lack of population scale.
Incidentally, I posted some expanded thoughts on how/why dual currency systems put the reigns on professional gold farmers here: http://forge.ironrealms.com/2008/09/25/dual-currencies-in-mmos/
–matt
about 1 year ago
You know, I played two Iron Realm games – but one before they even became Iron Realms. I did, however, play Lusternia earlier this year. It was fun, even though I’ve fallen out of it (for now at least). Yet, I have to say, the most interesting part of the game was looking at their RMT model.
Simply put, I was very impressed. I actually worked to pay for some credits in the game and it just felt like working up the gold for any other item I’ve ever done in a game before. And because of how the system worked, and because the company supported it, I even considered buying some credits for myself as well. I thought of it as a very creative method of micro-transactions that worked very well for the game and payment systems like that have an awful lot of potential within them. I sure remember an awful lot of people talking about them in GDC 2007 (I couldn’t attend this past one, sadly, so I’m not sure if that remained true).
So, yeah, like a few other posters, I’m a little let down that you didn’t piss me off!
It was a great write up though.
about 1 year ago
“I am totally claiming 100% credit for the Maple Syrup Economy, however.”
When games become infested with Quebecois syrup farmers we’ll know who to blame.
about 1 year ago
A note, Puzzle Pirates IMHO is actually a front for online gambling (the players play a mean game of Texas hold-em). Well yes, its only for RMT doubloons that can only be exchanged for in-game gold. But I figure 90% of the economy of YPP! is centred around taverns where gambling is taking place – NOT puzzling pirates on the “high seas” bilging or making furniture. Its the Las Vegas of MMOs – not the Disneyworld that most people seem to be looking for.
Also, whats this about people angry and not playing games that enable legalized RMT? These very same angry players also want unfettered PvP and unfailingly the companies that cater to them have gone out of business or changed their games back to carebear. Really, commentators ought to know better than to rely on the indignation of fanbois as a guide to the market.
about 1 year ago
> Also, whats this about people angry and not playing games that enable legalized RMT? These very same angry players also want unfettered PvP
I don’t think it’s right to say that the no-RMT purists are the same people as the unfettered-PvP purists. Sure, they both have angry fanboiism (and I speak as one of the former group), but I don’t buy that it’s the same people with both flavours of fanboiism. To stereotype, I think of no-RMT purists as more ‘play to bake bread’ / ‘play to PvE raid’ and unfettered-PvP purists as ‘play to crush’.
about 1 year ago
I’m afraid you failed to anger me with this proposal. Nice to see people carefully work their way to the same conclusions I jumped to many years ago.
No dealing I think is very essential – it is what eliminates accusations that gold sinks are designed to get $$$ rather than improve gameplay.
The big trick with a dual currency is to ensure your real world dollar currency has value independent of gold coins. Gametime can be troublesome as each player only needs so much gametime, but you want that powergamer flush with gold to be willing to dump it all into credits (as that pays your bills). Linden Dollar approaches, where players can cash out, are also troublesome as that encourages gold farms – farmers can easily pay their players/bots. It also will annoy your accountants who have to deal with breakage to calculate how much of that liability you have to keep in reserve.
about 1 year ago
A note, Puzzle Pirates IMHO is actually a front for online gambling (the players play a mean game of Texas hold-em). Well yes, its only for RMT doubloons that can only be exchanged for in-game gold. But I figure 90% of the economy of YPP! is centred around taverns where gambling is taking place – NOT puzzling pirates on the “high seas” bilging or making furniture.
As of 10:05 AM PST this morning, our most popular server, Viridian, had 776 players online. 77 of those players were seated at poker tables. In contrast, 358 of them were aboard ships, causing there to be job offers on our global Notice Boards for 8 pillages, 2 sea monster hunts, 1 trade voyage and 8 foraging expeditions.
My point here is that yes, people like playing poker in Puzzle Pirates, but there’s such a huge amount of stuff to do that it’s certainly not the primary activity in our game.
about 1 year ago
When the tax man shows up and decideds that all trades in your game have $ value gold for $ as well as gold for in game items based on your embrace of RMT its game over man game over. Want to sale that new sword you just got for gold well your going to have to pay 30% of sale price to IRS as capital gains. How about state and local sales taxes. Then you have to deal with income taxxes.
Then you have to deal with all that gold being taxxed flowing back into game as goverment converted gold to $ makeing goverment the largest saler of gold in your game.
I see no way to avoid that happening if you head down the path your suggesting.
about 1 year ago
I’m not sure you understand what the article is about with all due respect, Siddar. One of the effects of the dual currency system is to seriously decrease the feasibility of selling gold for real money.
As far as “heading down the path”….you realize that there are games out there that have been using this model for almost 10 years? It is -not- new.
about 1 year ago
Great writeup and plan, however I’ll never play your game…
I prefer my disposable income to not have such a direct role in my game-play.
about 1 year ago
Well done on completely glossing over the major impact of any type of ‘gold farming’.
That being the fact that those who make gold with the sole purpose of selling it to others are consuming a resource that those folk who want to play the game will now find lacking.
Joe sixpack wants to get a few gold together to buy his level 40 mount so he wakes up on a Saturday and decides he will spend a couple of hours ‘farming’ some gold to get his horsey.
He researches a bit on the net and finds that the best coin per hour is at a certain location.
He arrives at that location and finds that the mobs he is interested in are few and far between. Even worse, whenever one pops there is a scramble to get the first hit in and insure the kill. Joe sixpack is now forced with a decision; do without (for the moment), buy gold (from somewhere), or go somewhere else that he knows is second best (or third or fourth best).
None of these decisions leaves a good taste in Joes mouth and certainly doesn’t incourage him to resub.
If your business model supports this fact then go right ahead. Cater to the 20% of people who buy gold and the 2% of people who ‘farm’ gold to resell it whilst completely ignoring the 78% of people who play, what is, essentially, a game.
MMORPG’s do not incorporate a skill element, rather they are all about a formula. If your stats aren’t there then you lose. Not always, but in the majority of cases. Now you are discussing making MMORPGS more dependent on earning potential or free time. Both the latter are real world concepts. Skill or ability is a real world concept also, but MMORPGS ignore this, why should they include other real world factors?
about 1 year ago
@David: What you’re touching upon is more a problem with the current paradigm of MMORPG design rather than a specific issue with dual-currency systems or RMT. One particular area that can be considered the ‘best’ for earning in-game currency that is not only unfun to play in but also packed to the gills with competing players? We’re doing it wrong.
about 1 year ago
If I, as a player, have to “farm” gold to play, the game sucks. I should be able to earn gold by playing normally. I don’t want to pay $10/month to live in a virtual sweatshop.
about 1 year ago
I have played the Iron Realm games. The economy is the best I’ve ever run across in an MMO. I was one of the busy professionals buying credits. I had a friend who played a lot, and he had no problem earning enough gold to advance his character as fast as I did. Ultimately, it made no difference whether you bought credits, crafted, played the resource markets or ground for gold.
Mihaly made a lot of other brilliant decisions in those games like enforced RP, PvP combat that was actually balanced, and player-run cities. The only decision that was bad and drove me away from the game was to allow in-game harassment to masquerade as RP. I am curious to see whether they ever get their graphic MMO up and running.
about 1 year ago
Come to think of it, I remember the biggest problem with the Iron Realms RMT. There was a way for your guild master to kick you out of a guild, causing you to lose all your skills. You retained 50% of the training points that you had bought with credits, not 100%. This meant that when I was harassed in-game and removed from my guild, I lost real world cash. That player essentially robbed me (as well as harassing me). I stopped buying credits after that happened and stopped playing not too much later.
If a game has an RMT model, there need to be safeguards to keep people from feeling like they’ve wasted their money or even worse that it has been stolen from them. A subscription model is much safer; if the in-game economy fluctuates or RMT purchased items become less powerful in a game expansion or rebalancing, nobody feels like they’ve gotten ripped off.
about 1 year ago
I believe they actually changed their guild/class system just for that reason, Siobhann. At least in Achaea’s case, they eventually separated your character’s class out from his/her chosen RP guild, or ‘house’. I don’t believe being booted from your ‘house’ has any effect on your class or skills any more, which is indeed how it should be.
about 1 year ago
“Most Western MMO players will insist on prohibition. This is the “moral” position”
Sorry, you lost me at this point. It’s only true if it’s treated as a sport, where the must be a level playing field. And quite simply, MMO games are not structured like this. They introduce factors other than player skill such as random variations in damage, percentage resist changes and percentage drop chances.
Neo-prohibition has been proven over and over not to work on its own. Without the gameplay changes to support the model (and many of those changes will discourage players in themselves, such as limits on item value trading) then you’re simply making it easier for the gold sellers.
(For example, announcing a ban of any number of gold sellers leads to an immediate rise in prices even by the sellers not hit by the ban…)
about 1 year ago
People enjoy different parts of the game, and if I have to go through level grinding, I guess my delusion is that they should have to learn some business sense and not just throw RL money at it, to be “fair.”
Maybe just strip the economy of the game to largely irrelevant (i.e. the gold in Diablo II, which is mostly just scrolls and potions and basic gear), and make the RMT moot when you can’t get anything that matters by just buying it from some guy on the web. FFXI had most “major” items as rare/ex (analogous to WoW’s bind-on-pickup).
Making RMT necessary to be competitive is the one thing that must be avoided at all costs.
about 1 year ago
why not design a game where currency isn’t needed, where you don’t have to go 1-40, 1-50, etc to enjoy it or in the 1-40, 1-50 etc journey not make it less painful?
There obviously is a design flaw in these games, it people are saying “screw it, I’ll just pay 300 for a toon or 25 for gold”
I’ve never bought gold in my life in any MMO I’ve played or sold a toon. I think 7 or 8 I’ve played.
But after playing them for the past 8 years I’ve learned to understand.
I’m playing warhammer right now. and I will say this:
the leveling sucks. run 5 miles to do something, run back and they send you back again. pq’s. no one is around. and rvr scenarios, well I got what 5 in 8 hours yesterday?
and I have a friend 10 levels higher than me telling me to stick with it cause it gets better… why would I want to sit and spend another 30 hours of my life or whatever it takes to get up there to enjoy it when it may not be better?
about 1 year ago
Well, apparently they’ve lowered their expectations on getting rid of gold spam. I decided to see how on the ball Mythic was this weekend and I got spammed about every three minutes by the same guy for over three hours, after repeated appeals. I actually began appealing after every spam towards the end. That was Saturday. I sort of tried it again on Sunday, but after an hour of the same asshat spamming me every three minutes again ( different name, same company ) I finally gave in and put him on ignore.
Take home: The hype on getting rid of spammers is just that. The reality is that they obviously don’t have anything like a dedicated team working on this, unless she’s a 90 year old woman with narcolepsy, cataracts, and crippling arthritis.
Honestly you would figure these guys would know not to make claims they have no intention of coming through on. The anger at being lied to about Mythic taking this seriously is more than the anger at the spammers themselves.
about 1 year ago
I was with you up until the “dual currency model”.
First of all, the “dual currency model” on the Iron Realms games isn’t a good representation. On those games the main attractiveness of the purchased currency (“credits”, I think) isn’t to swap for the in-game currency (“gold”), but to buy special power-up items that can ONLY be bought in credits, and that require numbers of credits that gold couldn’t really earn – by the time you had that much gold, you’d have reached the maximum level several times over. It might have been a functional system at one stage, but it’s been bifurcated by the game’s own development.
More evidence of this came from Bang Howdy, the Three Rings project. They originally also used the dual currency model of in-game currency (“scrip”) and purchased currency (“gold”) – but unlike Iron Realms and Puzzle Pirates, they started with it from the beginning. I don’t know the details, but they were later forced to make players buy an “exchange permit” for 1 gold, so that they would have to put some money in to begin trading – which removes the market you describe..
about 1 year ago
This solution is sooooo anti-Internet and anti-web…
Internet-based soluton:
1. What’s the cost of a server (with support)? Not so much. Make your game granular and print new servers as soon as the old ‘burn out’ due to inflation. People will enter new servers, play there, then, as soon as the economy OF PARTICULAR SERVER burns out – THEY WILL LEAVE IT. Close it then. Open a new one.
2. The bigger the ‘front end’ of your game, including all fan sites, gold trading sites, item trading sites, ANY sites mentioning your game – THE BETTER. You attract more attention, you get more PAYING customers.
3. The more open is the game itself for the outside developers, that can incorporate your capabilities into their applications – THE BETTER. Open as many API’s as possible, make everything embeddable and accessible from the web. The third party developers will build their applications and start promoting them. They will need customers, they will convince MORE people to register in your game, because they need the. For instance instead of building your own unique version of the auction – build an escrow service for items transfer, charge for item transfers in your in-game currency AND OPEN THE API to it for the people who want to conduct a virtual goods commerce on the web, they will do the rest and again, ATTRACT MORE CUSTOMERS to your game, because they need to make money off them.
The road from where we are now with the ‘prohibition’ and Al Capone (hehe, we all know him
) is in one and only direction – LICENSING of the virtual goods trading and COLLECTING ‘TAXES’ off these sales.
THERE IS NO OTHER ROAD.
about 1 year ago
“OUR ECONOMY WILL BE BASED ON MAPLE SYRUP”
This type of economy would unfairly favor players who play at dusk vs those that play at night or during the day, since the maple syrup will flow more freely then.
about 1 year ago
If I, as a player, have to “farm” gold to play, the game sucks. I should be able to earn gold by playing normally. I don’t want to pay $10/month to live in a virtual sweatshop.
Thats exactly it! The anti-RMT devs and players would have you believe that your typical MMOG is a “fair and level playing field” that would be distorted by RMT, but it is NOT. You are expected to expand TIME on it (and lots of it = eg: played years) – a commodity considered far more valuable than mere RL currency.
about 1 year ago
@Hermes
Well, the easy solution is to give the player his mount automatically at level 40.
Then you have the best armour in the game at level 40, lets give him that too.
Oh, and a weapon would be good too.
In fact lets make everything time based, you played to level 40, you are exactly the same as evry other level 40.
Now go and find the fun in your game. There has to be an element of grinding (hard work) if you want that sense of achievment.
@Brask
In every game you will need to farm something.
No, i tell a lie, you can automatically give players X when they do certain actions back to back. As in level up.
What you now got is people ‘farming’ levels.
But, i can hear it now, a good game designer will make the process of levelling fun!
So, now each player has to follow a certain track to keep the quests and levelling going.
Yeah, it’s fun, right up until you don’t want to follow a track that someone else has laid out for you.
It works in games like Tetris, but not in a game that seems to offer a world for you to inhabit with all the choices available in such a construct.
And to both of you, there has never been a game in the history of humankind that doesn’t incorporate the ‘hard work’ metaphor.
Think about playing chess, think about playing an instrument.
No Pain no gain, it’s just that MMORPG’s allow someone to pay to get rid of the pain.
Most other ‘games’ in our lives can’t be worked like that. Which makes the ‘real world money for in game benefits’ attitude more unpalatable for more people
about 1 year ago
Hey,
I’m really late to the party but anyway.
As far as I can tell, Eve implemented this system with minor variations — GTC is the second currency and it is securely tradeable through Eve website. There are minor differences (such as Eve trading being open instead of hidden as you suggest), but I don’t think it has any effect on my conclusions.
My conclusion is that this didn’t kill illegal RMT in Eve and I’m pretty sure it won’t kill illegal RMT in your hypothetical game.
The reason is pretty simple and as follows:
Legal RMT (through game-authorized means) will tend to gravitate towards $$/game time ratio that is acceptable to a west-erner population. For example, in Eve, secure&legal RMT trade will net you ~400M ISK for 1 GTC (35$) — for the rate of about 8.75$ / 100M ISK — this is evidently $$/game-time conversion that is acceptable for the majority of players.
A quick check of what is available “illegally” gives price that is about 3$ / 100M. So there is quite large disconnect between game time valuation of *actual players* (the ones willing to sell their ISK legally for 2nd in-game currency) and *farmers* (the ones who try to make a living out of this).
Farmers can’t participate in legal RMT market (because there’s no [easy] to convert in-game 2nd currency into RL cash), so they operate by undercutting legal market — and as you can see they are able to undercut by quite a lot. As long as there’s this huge disparity between wages/income between the poor (China et all) and the rich (actual game players), it is highly probable that illegal RMT organizations will be able to undercut legal RMT market with ease — unless you completely flood the game with cheap “printed” money to the point where everyone will have more than enough in-game money by spending a single dollar or so.
about 1 year ago
To expand a bit on what Hermes and David Lyttle are bantering about, I believe that the YPP economy works primarily because it isn’t from the DIKU lineage. It’s almost purely skill based, which makes for a very different economy. You can’t “buy power” since the ego-stroking in the game is based on skill of the player. No amount of in-game frippery will make someone Bilge better, for instance.
Dual currency systems are great, and the YPP model is brilliant… but the typical DIKU style MMO game isn’t framed in such a way as to make the most of it. That’s not a reason not to try it, but there are some inherent game design issues that will function differently.
Disclosure: I’m a big fan of YPP (Silveransom over there), and it’s the only “MMO” that I’ve been happy to give real money to. Daniel James’ interview with Tycho of Penny Arcade nails it; give people things to play with and build a relationship, and the money will come. It’s a refreshing attitude in a DRM world, and I’m very happy to support Three Rings in their efforts.
about 1 year ago
s7TXor Thanks for good post