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Smashmouth
Warhammer Online moved from Closed Beta to Open Beta this weekend, and Goa, Mythic’s longtime European partners, had servers that melted under the stress.
Apparently, European Warhammer players were unhappy about this. Warhammer is Quite A Big Deal in Europe, and the players who couldn’t, well, play, were quite miffed. The newest Warhammer blogger, especially, blamed the Internet.
Why do some people feel it is okay to threaten, curse, abuse and be downright hostile to other people over a game, especially in this case when it is only over access to a game that is still in testing (Open Beta Test = Not Yet Ready For Prime Time Players)? While I’ve become quite cynical over the decades, I still find myself amazed at times at certain people’s reactions to stuff like this. I don’t mind when people get upset but to treat other people in such a callous, mean and immature manner is really a bit much. Again, it’s not the complaints I mind and nor am I excusing GOA or Mythic when we mess up but to apparently take things like this so personally is just hard for me to understand even though I know that most of the very hateful things are being said just for effect. However, I’ve worked with online communities for a long time and I do know that some of what was being said around the ‘Net was really coming from people’s hearts. I won’t quote any of it here, since doing so would simply encourage more of it, but I would ask anyone who said those kinds of things and who reads this blog to look at yourself in the mirror and ask how you would like it if you were treated this way in the real world? Are you really the kind of person who thinks it’s socially acceptable to threaten people just because you are having problems with a game? Are you and your life so perfect that you don’t have your own issues or make your own mistakes?
First off, one quibble – when you start an “Open Beta Test” one week before a game’s release? If it’s not yet ready for prime time, even bad SNL references won’t save you. Let’s be honest here – this isn’t a beta test. The game’s locked down (at least it had better be), and you’ve moved to a marketing preview/encouragement of pre-order sales. Once you let effectively anyone who wants to kick the tires and light the fires of your game, it had better be ready for prime time, because that is what your early adopters are looking to test – and badly managed open betas strangled any number of games stillborn. You don’t get the “but it’s still in testing!” excuse when you open the floodgates, any more than you get the “but it just launched!” excuse a week later.
More to the point, Mark is apparently rediscovering the joys of Internet discourse, where “aww, is poor widdle baby butthurt?” is considered a witty riposte. I can only conclude that he wasn’t paying attention during, you know, every single other MMO launch. I especially remember in the year after DAOC’s launch, as the DC sniper was stalking the local gas stations, our helpful wonderful players were wonderfully helpfully suggesting that people forward the shooter pictures of Mythic employees. You know, so he would know where to aim. I’m not sure what provoked this strong desire for us to all DIE. I seem to dimly remember something about clerics. Or maybe it was archers. Whatever, it was certainly cause for us to be shot.
My point isn’t that this sort of psychopathy should be excused, or even really expected. I don’t even really think it’s limited to MMOs, or computer gaming. I would, in fact, argue that in the past couple of decades, public discourse in general has become “smashmouth“. You don’t just run the ball, you run it straight down their throats and make them CHOKE on it. You don’t debate your opponents – you BREAK them. Civilized discourse is for the WEAK.
As our national – no, make that global community deals with disagreements through the strategy of smashmouth, why should our micro-community be any different? After all, if someone disagrees with you, the response isn’t merely to respond, but to respond EN MASSE, SHOUT THEM DOWN, AND DESTROY THEIR WILL TO RESPOND. Every campaign has a War Room, every public relations firm a Rapid Response Team, every challenge has to be responded to the same day in a blizzard of paper, every natural disaster an occasion to dump bad news. So how do you make yourself heard in such a microtrend-plotted environment? You amp up the volume. You say something outrageous so it stands out in the storm of thousands of responses, all demanding some sort of response or recognition. And having the President of the company complain about your post in his blog certainly qualifies as recognition.
My point isn’t that this is acceptable behavior, or even expected behavior. My point is that in smashmouth community management, our communities are simply reflecting our wider community, and these are not issues that are going to be resolved by fixing an authentication server.
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about 1 year ago
A lot of the comments from the EU community were out of line. I believe even one user made some type of hitler video. Regardless, GOA dropped the ball on this and they did not respond well to the community
about 1 year ago
Well said Scott. I’m sitting here patiently waiting for GOA to get their act together so can authenitcate my WAR open beta account. I’m not mad, I’m not angry, and most of all I’m not surprised.
Judging by GOA’s past record (DAoC) this was to be expected. GOA and Mythic are both to blame. GOA for being inept and Mythic for trusting GOA not to be. The fact is that GOA should have been ready for this and Mythic should have made sure that they were.
It is what it is, and I’m willing to bet that Mythic are kicking themselves for not letting EA handle the Euorpean end of WAR. I for one will not be giving up on playing WAR, its a great franchise and Warhammer has bee npart of my life for decades and considering I’m only thirty, thats a fair proportion of my life.
I hope GOA takes this opportunity to learn seriously and treats the people who play WAR in Europe with the respect they deserve. Without those of us who have followed Warhammer since near enough the beginning they wouldn’t even have this opportunity to milk us for our hard earned cash because the franchise just wouldn’t exist.
See, not all inhabitants of the internets are rage driven psychopaths.
about 1 year ago
Oh and I call Godwins law on the comment before mine.
about 1 year ago
Don’t worry the magic patch is up on test even as we speak. It will solve all the problems and launch will be smotth as silk.
Actually I’m having a blast. I’ve been beta testing Warhammer for over a year and I still enjoy the lowbie game. The PvE isn’t great but man the RvR is great. I forget how many charachters I’ve levelled up into the teens and I still love doing it even if I have the newbie zones burned into my retinas.
Note: I may be a fanboy, however I still think they should have held off another couple of months on release. It’s good now in two months it could have been “bestest MMO launch EVAR”
about 1 year ago
@Njal: In two months the Lich King would have pounded this lame excuse for a AAA MMO into the pavement and teabagged it right in Sigmar’s eye. These guys are in the same boat as AoC: a boat that is underfunded, underdeveloped, and run by some of the biggest douchetastic assholes in the biz. You should be ashamed to be supporting someone who treats his customers just like his employees by giving neither any credit whatsoever. The sooner Riccitiello: Destroyer of MMO’s pulls the plug on this travesty to quality, the better. There is a reason they are releasing it in the same week as Spore…because they don’t have an ounce of faith in it.
about 1 year ago
@Octopaganini
That was supposed to be ironic, right?
about 1 year ago
Does WAR have a Sr. Community Manager type person? I’m not trying to be snarky, I seriously want to know.
about 1 year ago
@Octopaganini
Heh, you can take your lame excuse for PvP in WoW and go grind until your eyes bleed. Obviously we disagree. I’m not unaware of the problems in WAR, I’m still having fun after a year of beta testing. That was the point which I uninstalled WoW after it was too much of a chore to sit in the queue for 45 mins just to grind rep in some instance.
about 1 year ago
This is what happens when the CEO thinks he can do community management. I don’t mean that unkindly…mostly. But Mark Jacobs should not be blogging this shit. Mythic community managers have got to be tearing their eyelids off in frustration, because anything they say is going to have to be carefully vetted against Mark’s latest post, and holychristonacrutch let’s pray to god it jibes with what he said last week, and what he’s going to say next week. And as a customer, why engage with the community managers when you can just leap on over to Mark’s blog and engage directly with the guy writing the paychecks?
Mark…hon…you are not paid to do community management. You are paid to pay your community managers to do community management. At the very least turn your comments off. Wax poetic on game industry trends, post Youtubes and cute pictures of kittens, but stop cock-blocking your community managers.
about 1 year ago
Well, so far I’m having one of my smoothest experiences in a Beta/early release that I’ve had in a long while – granted that says… not much. Its a shame that GOA dropped the ball so badly. I always find some of the companies like GOA that to be a bit… well… You know, stuff like this seems to happen rather frequently, or so it seems.
about 1 year ago
“This is what happens when the CEO thinks he can do community management.”
I think Mark’s been told by previous employees that he can’t. I guess it didn’t stick.
about 1 year ago
On the other hand, keep in mind that this is an improvement. Not too many decades ago when you disagreed with someone the proper response was to kill them. Now we as a species have finally grown up past the toddler beating-each-other-with-sticks phase and are firmly into whining-about-everything adolescense.
Yes, human-kind are now all finally whiney teenagers. In about thirty years humanity will turn emo and get a nose piercing.
about 1 year ago
@Amber
What’s even worse is he threw one of the few community people trying to do their job under the bus. I’m not defending what IanC wrote, I would have worded it differently, but you can’t publicly call someone out like that anymore than IanC would call out the development team when they made a mistake. One of the first things I tell new community people when I hire them is we have to speak with one voice as much as possible. When the development team does something they disagreed with and the players don’t like, they can’t go on the boards and say “Well I went to bat for you guys and told them not to do it, but the Producer did it anyway.” It’s their job to defend the decision and back up their team.
Likewise, Community Relations people need to be able to expect that their co-workers will have their backs, even when they screw up.
about 1 year ago
I think the arguments that “It’s beta” don’t apply here, since the game is not what is breaking, their account management is breaking. that should not be beta, that’s should be handled completely differently.
But yeah, it’s not just the internet. My manager talks like that about the opposite political party of his. He just goes nuts, Friday he was SHOUTING how if candidate X wins then we should eliminate democracy because half the country is too stupid to vote. I was waiting for HR to come by and have a talk with him.
What’s interesting to me is both major candidates are known for reaching across the aisle, for trying to work together with people they disagree with (mostly
). And yet it seems to me a majority of their followers ignore that aspect but actively disagree. They want blood.
about 1 year ago
I don’t even consider this an “Open” beta test, not when you have to pre-purchase just to get in.
I can understand it being a beta this close to release. Beta status is supposed to be considered release candidate quality. Betas are supposed to be stable, and the purpose of the beta test is to iron out the last few kinks if any. Plus, MMO’s have the luxury of mastering the discs at any time, and allowing the beta results to dictate what is in the first patch which everyone will be downloading on release day.
Could this be considered a preview as Scott suggests, an incentive to pre-order? An excellent idea, but what good does kicking the tires do after you have already bought the car? This is like watching the trailer for a movie after you have already bought the ticket. Huh? I am completely missing the reasoning if this is so.
Anyway, I don’t understand why they don’t open it up to everyone to give people a test to see if they like it. One of the reasons I played DAoC and WoW was because I was able to open beta test them before they were released. That’s a HUGE way to get people into your game from the start, and is especially effective when it’s just starting out and you and your friends all jump in and then want to keep playing.
Oh, and if anyone has 3 or so beta keys they want to get rid of, I’m accepting them at tafia44489@mypacks.net. =)
about 1 year ago
I’m sure dealing with the public they way you online gaming people do leads to the trawling up of a few crazies but please remember, at least they aren’t organized crazies.
From the world of “It can always get worse”:
In my line of work I have to worry about animal loving nutjobs putting a bomb in my car.
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_10084756
Or coming to my house and attacking my family…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/08/AR2005050800793.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11951337 (Sorry if you don’t subscribe…) We scientists don;t have cool blogs like you gamers do.
about 1 year ago
@Whaledawg: I thought we were supposed to be smashmouthing, right?
@Njal: If you think WAR is exempt from waiting cues, you are in for the rudest of awakenings in 10 days.
about 1 year ago
@PacerDawn: Fileplanet subscribers can also join, and I assume there are other promotions, so yes you can play without preordering.
I am.
about 1 year ago
Fileplanet subs can join as long as they don’t mind waiting for 3 days to download the 10GB client at 4kb/sec. Yeah yeah, I know, get the torrent.
There are some serious issues with the game right now that Mythic needs to address within a couple weeks of launch if they don’t want to fall flat on their faces. Lag is pretty terrible across the board, with all kinds of warping NPCs. NPC pathing, both with pets and mobs, is probably the worst I’ve ever seen–and there’s no excuse for that kind of problem this close to release.
That being said, the RVR is phenomenal. If the 4/1 Chaos/Order ratio persists beyond release, that’ll be pretty detrimental, but in beta the PvP aspects of the game have been very, very enjoyable.
about 1 year ago
“Why do people feel it is okay to…”
Why do people feel it is okay to lie about your product to get customers to buy it early?
“However, I’ve worked with online communities for a long time…”
If you didn’t see this reaction coming, then you clearly haven’t been paying attention. Anyone working with MMO customers should assume that all customers for a buggy ‘Open Beta’ game will have a default starting attitude of unfriendly: you are taking/asking for their money for something that does not work while lying about it (at least, as far as the customer sees it, and that’s the viewpoint that matters). They are going to be upset, they are going to be upset at you, and they are going to feel righteous about it. And that’s _before_ you get to Crazytown.
This is the time you STFU and turn things over to your community managers. The one thing you DON’T do is accuse your prospective and future customers of being sociopaths.
about 1 year ago
Even if, you know, they are.
about 1 year ago
Of course they are, that’s your key demographic after all.
Well adjusted people don’t play MMOGs. At least not those that are pre-ordering and eager for a beta key. These are the addicts you’re dealing with.
about 1 year ago
For what its worth the beta/preview servers have been more or less flawless here, across the ocean. Then again, they didn’t even have the account center open for Europe until Sunday, which is probably the cause of all the meltdown.
@Octopaganini: Try playing order if you dislike queues =p
about 1 year ago
Even if, you know, they are.
Especially if you know they are.
about 1 year ago
Your assesment is, once again, on the spot.
Now, how do we go about changing people’s behavior? Or do we accept it and mold the industry around it?
about 1 year ago
One way to change behavior is to have consequences for it. IE: you act poorly on the boards, you get banned. If you do it early and often, throughout the pre-beta, beta, and early live, it sets the precedent. Look at the LOTRO forums (which are VERY active) as an example. This kind of tactic does scale, but you have to have official forms to really pull it off.
The other way to help curtail it is to never let people know you were bothered by it. “Never let ‘em see you sweat” is one of the mantras I try to instill in people who chose to go on the boards. If you react to it in your posts, even negatively, you’ll only encourage it. People act this way because a) they are upset and b) they want attention. You can solve “a” without making “b” the focus.
You’ll never get rid of this kind of behavior completely. But if you plan for it in advance as part of a broad communication strategy, you can limit it a great deal. The plan has to be in place and you have to have experienced people ready to execute on it though. And you have to start early, from the day you open your forums, otherwise it gets harder and harder to set a long term precedent.
about 1 year ago
The problem I see with this is that open beta, is just that, a beta still. Open betas are used to check the overall system and server stability. It’s a crash test to see if their current systems meet their expectations. Unfortunately GOAs systems proved to be inadequate and puked when put under a load. A little understanding is in order.
about 1 year ago
There’s a reason I introduce Calandryll as the Ur-CM. /blows kisses
about 1 year ago
Funny the Hitler vid was mentioned. If you go and look it up in youtube there’s a whole bunch of them, its basically an internet meme and is pretty humourous. Think my old man had a good laugh at one where it was about the Sheffield united manager.
about 1 year ago
@Marc
You mentioned the Hitler video made by a user. The video really had nothing to do with Hitler. The fact the video is of Hitler means nothing at all. The video was made because people were commenting on how all the GOA staff were hiding in their bunker and hoping things would get better. I have a link for the video here, if you watch it you will see it really has nothing to do with the Nazis and everything to do with a group of guys hiding from the MMO players
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drnz1i3IEuE
about 1 year ago
I think that strict rules and harsher punishments are really the only thing that CAN be done to help curb the horribly offensive immature behavior by ADULTS as well as children on the net.
Someone should develop a web tool that reverse engineers your IP address (as I’m sure most of you have seen the tool that shows your IP address in someone’s sig) and posts the name that it is registered to.
then sell it to Mozilla for a pittance
if people knew that they were a button click away from being NOT anonymous anymore, they might just shape up. Especially if the person they’re verbally abusing happens to live across town and has easy access to Duct tape, a bucket of soapy frogs, and a skin diving suit with the bottom cut out.
just my .02
~Ash
about 1 year ago
The naked pole-dancing Scott Jennings video had nothing to do with Hitler. The video with the bunker and the Nazi’s and the Hitler guy…yeah, pretty much had to do with Hitler. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
about 1 year ago
I have about five separate objections to the above comment.
about 1 year ago
So, why is it that apparently I am not allowed to share my thoughts about things on a personal blog without being criticized by people who are doing the exact same thing? I’ll resist the temptation to go all Shakespearean here but it does seem like I’m being held to a higher standard by some of the people/bloggers who have criticized my decision to create a personal blog. I didn’t set up that blog for community management (it’s why I don’t have the EA or Mythic logo there), I didn’t set that blog up to “cock-block my CMs” or anything else like that. Scanning through the entries, numero uno was about why I chose the name, the second about the industry, the third a bit of sarcasm, the fourth a thank you to Curt Schilling for something nice he said about our trailer and then I responded to a lot of user comments and then I posted my thoughts about a subject that *anyone who knows me* knows I’ve been talking about publicly longer than most people have been blogging especially since blogging only started in 1998 and I’ve been complaining about stuff like that since oh, since the 80s when I created my first pay-for-play online game and had the same of the same lovely experiences back then with angry people.
You don’t like my blog, that’s fine. You think I’m wrong to do it, gotcha. hey, you think I’m an idiot, yeap, heard that before. However, to say that I shouldn’t do it when apparently 112M other people have them (including some of the posters here) and I do think I have a lot to share, well, that doesn’t seem right to me.
And Scott, you know better than to say “I’m just rediscovering the joys…” because you know darn well that I’ve been hip-deep in this stuff not only for decades but I’ve been involved with the WAR community continually on forums since this game was announced. It’s not like this came as a surprise or that I just jumped into the shallow end of the pool head-first without looking at the water level. Whether you or anyone else agrees with me being involved, well, that’s another thing entirely but I’ve been involved with the community whether it was Dragon’s Gate or WAR, it’s part of what I do and I have never left it and don’t intend to.
Oh, and I also leave the comments on so I can respond to some of what I am being asked or is being said about me or the issues. What’s so wrong about that?
Mark
about 1 year ago
Oh and just to clarify my point on “without being criticized…” I should be clear and say that I’m referring to other bloggers who have also criticized my setting up a blog and not just to the comments here.
Mark
about 1 year ago
So, why is it that apparently I am not allowed to share my thoughts about things on a personal blog without being criticized by people who are doing the exact same thing?
Hurrr? It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to assert otherwise. BUT…
I didn’t set up that blog for community management (it’s why I don’t have the EA or Mythic logo there), I didn’t set that blog up to “cock-block my CMs” or anything else like that.
Except that as Mark Jacobs, VP/GM of EA/Mythic Entertainment, your every word posted there DOES reflect on your company. Just as much as I always have to be careful about what I post here (including/especially when I reported to, er, you) you also have to be aware that what you post, ESPECIALLY about a game you work on, WILL be reported as news by the Internet.
Case in point: http://www.massively.com/2008/09/08/warhammers-open-beta-goes-great-in-us-epic-failure-in-eu/ Note how your blog is posted as Mythic’s response to the EU beta woes. No matter what disclaimer you may have, when you talk about a Mythic product (or any competition for that matter) you ARE speaking ex cathedra.
But regardless, the point isn’t “Mark shouldn’t have a blog”, it is that what you post there is now taken by the community as a statement of principles by Mythic. It’s precisely as if Rob Pardo opened up a blog and said “You know, I’m thinking warlocks are pretty overpowered. We should do something!” No community manager would be able to stem that particular tide once that got out there.
So yes, it is “cockblocking the CMs” because everyone knows you outrank them. No one wants to talk to the PR guy when the oh-so-quotable CEO is RIGHT THERE.
And Scott, you know better than to say “I’m just rediscovering the joys…” because you know darn well that I’ve been hip-deep in this stuff not only for decades
Well, yes, that is why I said REdiscovering. And I stand by that if you were at all surprised by the depths of fury found on MMO-related message boards.
about 1 year ago
Mark, with all due respect, you’re the one setting the double standard. Just taking your latest post, you’re talking about the launch, the game, and GOA and how you’re dealing with the situation. Then you addressed players directly in your update. You don’t have an EA or Mythic logo, but how on earth can you justify that your blog is not speaking for Mark Jacobs, Mythic CEO when you are in fact speaking as Mark Jacobs, Mythic CEO?
I actually do like your blog, although probably not for the reasons you want me or anyone else to like your blog. I like it because I’m hearing what Mark Jacobs, CEO of Mythic, has to say about things Mythic and Warhammer. I don’t consider your blog a “personal” blog, because, well, it’s not a personal blog. If you want to have a Mark Jacobs, CEO of Mythic blog where you talk official stuff, and then a Mark Jacobs, Private Citizen blog where you talk about kittens or whatever, then cool. But as it stands now I think you’re trying to have the best of both worlds and the worst of none.
about 1 year ago
Shit. Scott beat me to it and said it better than me. Read his reply, not mine.
about 1 year ago
Actually you said pretty much the same thing, but said it more succinctly. Brevity FTW.
about 1 year ago
Mr. Jacobs, the problem people are having with you is that you’ve basically cut the legs out from under a CM who went so far as to say that customers who flipped out and posted your pretty basic internet trash need to put things in perspective. Your customers didn’t like it, true, but sometimes the truth hurts.
The customer is not always right, in fact, I would hazard the guess that you don’t want the sort of person willing to make death threats and slurs publicly under the veil of anonymity playing your game – or at least not speaking in general chat channels or on your forum. If you really insist on sticking to the “customer is always right” line I can go and pre-order so I have the right to illustrate my point to you as obscenely as I please, but beware: I will not be gentle.
Regardless, I expect a metaphor about forcing someone to drink hemlock out of you sometime soon. I think it would go nicely with company policy of burning heretics at the stake.
about 1 year ago
Yeah, I’m not saying a word more here.
about 1 year ago
“This just in: Mark Jacobs, CEO of Mythic entertainment, issued a press release to Broken Toys explaining that Mark Jacobs, CEO of Mythic entertainment, is not authorized to speak on behalf of Mythic entertainment, and all official statements from Mark Jacobs, CEO of Mythic entertainment, will henceforth originate only from Mark Jacobs, CEO of Mythic entertainemnt.”
about 1 year ago
Amber, I’m not sure why you think “I am trying to have the worst of none”. I’m happy to take the criticism or flack for what I say. I don’t want to dredge up an old thread here but I post under my own name (but I do understand why people don’t) so I know that I’m going to take even more flack than usual. I’ve never been afraid to admit when Mythic messes up and I’m also willing to take the heat when I mess up and I’m also willing to take the heat when other people at Mythic mess up by deflecting the blame on myself at times. My company and now my studio is not perfect but when we make mistakes I usually say “Blame me” because I’m the guy with the title. I don’t do this because I think I am a saint, perfect (I know I’m anything but perfect), want to jump on a cross or god’s gift to game development but rather because I believe it is part of my job. However, there are times I can’t or won’t do that but they are very, very rare especially when you consider how long I’ve been making games.
My point is that when I’m being criticized for setting up my own blog by some people who have their own blog that it seems unfair to me. As far as the latest post, I agree that it was about WAR’s launch in Europe and the problems that it had but I’m not trying to duck the issues in any way. And you and Scott are right on one point, no matter what I’m still GM of Mythic but the blog is meant to be more than a “LOOK AT ME MOM I’M BLOGGING” or a “WAR ROCKS” blog because if I simply wanted to do that I could. Unfortunately the stuff in Europe came up (or didn’t) and it seemed like an appropriate post especially since I was getting bombarded by questions (as I knew I would unfortunately) about the launch. So, I’m in a tough situation (again, I knew I’d be, I’m not asking for sympathy) that if I don’t talk about anything WAR-related people say I’m ignoring them but if I do talk about WAR, then I’m cock-blocking my CMs (again, not asking for sympathy). The fact is that I do post more about WAR on the Internet than anyone else and I’ve always done that because especially in the beginning, I wanted to engage the community, help spread the word, deal with issues with Climax’s game, throw ideas back and forth, etc. However, just as with DAoC, once the game goes LIVE, I’ll slowly disengage and go back to merely reading the forums and occasional comments but leaving the vast majority of the heavy lifting to Bob and crew. In truth, I haven’t spoken to the players about DAoC in years and since we took over UO, I also have left CM to our CM folks.
Scott, I wasn’t surprised and you know me well enough to know I wasn’t surprised. Amazed that people say the things they do, yes as always but not surprised. I knew full well how the community would react to GOA’s issues and that some of them would go over the line. I can still be amazed by that and not be surprised can’t I?
Do I wish I never set up my blog right now? Nope. Do I plan on having some fun with it? Yeap. Do I think people should read it? Up to them. All I ask, as I’ve always asked, to give me a chance to see where I am going with it. If you don’t like it, no worries.
Mark
about 1 year ago
Only thing wrong with WAR is that it needs more Cowbell….
about 1 year ago
Re-read this paragraph..does this sound like it comes from a personal blog? Good on you for taking the heat, deflecting blame, etc. But that’s your job then, isn’t it?
Nobody has criticized you for blogging. Nobody is saying that we can all blog, but you cannot, and I think you know it. You are straw-manning here, and I think it’s disingenuous. The point is simple: you cannot defend your blog as “personal” if you are directly addressing issues related to, in this case, Warhammer. That’s the actual point. Refute it if you must, but let’s have no more talk of the unfairness of you not being allowed to blog. That was never the argument.
Why weren’t the points you addressed in your post weren’t funneled through the CM crew? Would it have made more sense, especially where you addressed specific emails, if this had been done in a post on the boards, where it could then be “blessed” as official, instead of living in this gray area outside of Mythic? I haven’t visited the forums today, but the information you put out in your personal blog…does it correlate with what’s been put out on the official boards?
I think it’s admirable of you to want to do your part in getting the word out to the player base and letting your customers know you’re listening and working to make the product better. I think it’s great and I wish more people in your position would be so concerned. I just think that the way you’re doing it right now is confusing and ultimately detrimental to what you’re trying to accomplish. You hired people to write code because you’re not a coder. You hired people to create art because you’re not an artist. You hired CM people because you are not a CM. So let the CM’s do their job. They’ll make you and Mythic look a lot better than you can possibly make yourself look, I promise.
about 1 year ago
As a fellow Marc or Mark I side with Mark Jacobs on this one
about 1 year ago
Yeah I don’t see them saying you shouldn’t blog Mr. Jacobs, only that you have to be aware of the fact that since you are the CEO of Mythic anything you say related to anything Mythic does , be it DAoC, WAR, or any future endeavors is going to come across as an official response.
That would be like Joe Girardi (sp?) on a blog saying that Alex Rodriguez would be benched, and then coming out against the press who reported him saying that as what was going to happen because he said it on a blog and not in his official capacity as the Yankees Manager. Girardi is ALWAYS the Yankees General Manager whether he likes it or not, its not something you can turn off, just as you are unable to turn off the CEO of Mythic portion of your title (unless of course you quit and nobody wants that):P
about 1 year ago
Imagine how bad it’s going to be when GOA screws up the REAL launch…
about 1 year ago
Amber when you say “haven’t visited the forums today, but the information you put out in your personal blog…does it correlate with what’s been put out on the official boards?” Yes. I did post on the WHA about it much earlier today. And I will disagree with one point though, CMs can indeed make me or Mythic look good at times though I also think that by when the GM/CEO/etc. of a company says something it does carry more weight than any CM. I don’t like having other people be the bearer of bad tidings to the players. Even during the DAoC days, I would be the one that delivered a lot (not all) of the very bad news. I believe that by doing so the community takes what is said a bit more seriously than if any CM, even someone who had the clout with the community that Sanya (and I don’t think anybody had the clout as a CM that she did) did when she was with us, delivers the same news. It’s not a matter of making me look good, it’s a matter of building trust at times, falling on our swords at times and sometimes bring a smile to people’s faces. Maybe I’m wrong on this, I don’t know but I do believe that the community reacts better to a CEO who says “Guys, we really FUBARed on this one” than a CM who says the same thing. That’s why when we cut the classes and the cities, I didn’t leave that message to be delivered by our CM team or when we had the delays I delivered the message myself. I took the heat and the hate and that’s fine by me and I’ll do it again if necessary. I worked those forums talking, answering and absorbing the kind of stuff that GOA has seen in the last few days and in the end, I think it helped ease a bad situation because no matter what, the players knew that they were talking to the GM of Mythic and that I was willing to take the time and energy to communicate with them openly and honestly and that helped ease their anger and concern. It didn’t make everything all right but I’ve seen enough MMOs use CMs to be their own human shields to know that strategy has its own issues as well. Neither strategy is perfect and since CMs are human too, they can mess things up just as much as anyone else. As we all know, lots of early rant sites focused their hatred on the CMs as well as on the company itself and even today, CMs can still be a lightning rod for criticism by the players. Again, I’m not saying I’m perfect but neither are CMs.
So, it’s all part of the package. Maybe I talk to the community too much in some people’s opinion (not mine) but I’m also there when we screw up. That seems to have worked pretty well for us so far.
Mark
about 1 year ago
Mark, every example you just gave happened on an official Mythic website, not your blog. Everything you said was right on, and I don’t think many here will disagree. Except the bit about Sanya. Dear god she was horrible. Seriously what were you thinking on that hire? (zomg SO kidding!!!) But seriously, I don’t know why you keep defending the content of your message. It’s not the content so much as the medium you’ve chosen. And you may at times be a better person to release certain types of news, but it should never, ever be a surprise to your CM’s. I don’t get the impression that you’re running your Mythic-related blog posts past your CM’s before hitting the publish button. I could be wrong.
So…you’re saying DAoC’s days are numberd?!?! OMG. To the bat blog!!!
about 1 year ago
Amber, LMAO, okay, the bat blog gag was funny. As to running the stuff by the CMs, you’re sort of wrong but not 100%. I discussed my reaction (and I wanted their reactions) to some of what I was going to say with the key guys at Mythic before I said it. I generally just don’t go off on a big issue whether it is on the community sites or now on my blog without talking to someone first and either doing a sanity check, get feedback or just letting them know what I am going to do. Rob (co-founder) and Eugene (the lord of all pr/marketing/community/etc. and the “calm” English bloke at Mythic) act as sounding boards just about every time and have no problem telling me when I need to rethink a plan just a wee little bit.
Mark
about 1 year ago
Hmm.
Where are these official forums everyone keeps talking about..
about 1 year ago
Do not invoke my name in a context where I cannot respond. Seven years of public material under my real name (and two years of material under one of the better known MMO handles) contain material on related topics that could be cited by someone with lots of time on their hands. However, I absolutely am not going to be a material part of this particular discussion. Thank you.
about 1 year ago
Warning: Contains questionablly offensive adult entertainment references
Mark, obviously people aren’t arguing on the point of you blogging but mostly the reference that blog creates. Regardless if the blog is labelled ‘personal’ and devoid of branding the source is always what is considered.
When (if) you go to an adult entertainment establishment, are you really there to help some poor soul through college or for the ‘entertainment’? Regardless of what vocal exchange happens between you and the ‘entertainers’, the source is the CEO of Mythic Entertainment, not some poor misguided soul with dollar bills in his pockets ‘supporting’ his ‘community’. (Although, I am sure you use twenties!)
I run a company and whatever I say to my friends and acquaintences outside the four walls of my work place when it is known what I do for a living, it always is tagged back to the company. If that company happens to be one specializing in online worlds, sharing information in an online space (where your customers reside and scour for information) it is pretty much impossible for the average person to disconnect you from the company. Moreso when the topics of your blog include the issues and announcements of the same.
All that being said more face time with the developers we support is always a good thing and I applaud you for the initiative – just don’t expect there to be the disconnect it seems you are interested in having – but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing either.
As per the “issue” of your CM I was one of those in the camp that was glad GOA came out and said what they did. While it was no doubt not a textbook CS response it held true. The reason why people are enabled to be jerkoffs in online spaces is because CS’s historically have lacked the teeth and as such not only is that type of behaviour tolerated – it is actually promoted. Since the ‘customer is always right’ regardless of how completely wrong they are we have enabled people to use their anonymous voice without consequence; we have created a breed of bottom feeders who know they can say whatever they want, to whoever they want, in any means of anonymous fashion (this also wouldn’t exist if they had to use their real names) under the blanket of security that anonymity provides. The irony of it all is that the most vocal are the ones still paying their $15 every month anyway. Of course, I didn’t touch upon how/why the issue happened in the first place, but I am certain you have already figured out how to dodge that bullet in the future.
As a disclaimer, I haven’t been to an adult entertainment establishment in 5 (years/months/days/hours) and it was to support friends who were trying to put themselves through college. Honest.
about 1 year ago
At least this is productive… No really. A good thing is happening here.
about 1 year ago
To sum:
Cumulative hours wasted by Mythic employees reading this nonsense: 5,349
Cumulative hours spent by Mythic employees not used in preparing for worldwide launch: 5,342
Cumulative hours spent by Mythic employees laughing: 7
Lessons learned: 0
Reward:
Scott’s Blog of Awesome Truthiness: +3 to more awesomeness and truthiness
about 1 year ago
I absolutely agree with this statement by Mark: “I also think that by when the GM/CEO/etc. of a company says something it does carry more weight than any CM. ”
This is fundamentally true. However, one of the principal dynamics that makes it true, especially with MMO communities, is that the CEO is not typically “out there” constantly. Typically, a CEO or Executive Producer is able to pull off the pronouncement from the mountaintop primarily because he or she is rarely heard from, and only on matters of significant importance.
This dynamic changes completely when the CEO is also essentially acting as an extremely active focus of all communications regarding the product. But the public and media know the difference between a spokesperson (whether a CM or not) and a CEO. They are treated differently for a reason. The CEO/GM that puts him or herself in that position gives up a great deal of their stature, if only from familiarity.
about 1 year ago
Regarding Mark and him stepping on the CM
GOA messed up and we all know it. The CMs then didn’t post anything for about 8 hours. They then pretty much told us that everything was going great and didn’t accept any sort of responsibility. Everyone on the forums were getting frustrated and angry, a few went over the line (as always happens)
Mark stepped in and defused the situation on the forums.
The next day another CM posted and set off the whole thing again. People were angry and the flame war was getting going for day two.
Again Mark stepped in and defused the situation
Yes a CM should not have to worry about the CEO stepping on them. But when the CM is making things worse either by posting or not posting, its a good thing to have someone step in and steady things. This is what Mark did and he was 100% right to do so.
Actions and results speak louder than words. The actions of Mark defused the whole situation and brought everyone (almost) back into line and everything started to be conducted in a more grown up manner. A few posts by Mark is a much much better solution than fanning the flames and having the community go to war just before launch.
As for his Blog. He is Mark the person and the CEO, when I talk about my life on my blog I talk about everything from work to kids to my pet dog. When I read Marks posts I hear what he as a person is saying about the world through his own eyes. I don’t for a moment think its all official Mythic policy.
about 1 year ago
Damn those CM’s and the way they just willy-nilly give out information when THEY feel like giving out information. If only there were some way to control them, sort of like if you could employ them…have them work for your company…like, you could pay them, and then they could interface with the customer for you. That way you wouldn’t have 8 hours where you desperately want to update your customers but the CM’s won’t post anything because they’re all like “yo bitches, we’re CM’s and we post when we want to post, aight?” That would be so much better than the way it works now.
about 1 year ago
I have no real understanding of exactly how the relationship between Mythic and GOA works. I know that so far communication from within Mythic has worked really well. US players seem up to date and as problems come up the community is kept up to speed.
The problem over the last few days (some would say months) seems to have been on the GOA side of the equation and the CMs employed by GOA to keep the EU players up to speed. I have no idea why one of the two figure heads for GOA support took the day off and why the other was unable to post anything for 8 hours. I do know as anyone who deals with support that left in the dark consumers inevitably build up a head of steam that just gets worse and worse.
When for whatever reason the CMs are unable to perform and that is causing things to blow completely out of proportion, especially this close to launch something needs to be done. I can’t see any way in which the situation could have been calmed by anyone other than Mark. When the CMs fail you need someone to step in and bring people back from the brink.
about 1 year ago
Mark,
I was just wondering if you read the blog of your former CM?
Specifically, this: http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/08/06/the-jellybeans-community-project/#more-96
about 1 year ago
The death rattle before the Epic Fail? Why are these game hyped beyond imagination? I find it funny there is an unofficial blog post on war hammer from the big cheese, yet no official war hammer forums? I’m confused there.
I agree with Scott. Open beta is dog and pony show for subs. Add fanatic hype by marketing and melted servers, you get what you get.
about 1 year ago
“I have no idea why one of the two figure heads for GOA support took the day off and why the other was unable to post anything for 8 hours. I do know as anyone who deals with support that left in the dark consumers inevitably build up a head of steam that just gets worse and worse.”
The problem isn’t necessarily even that Mark intervened prior to the CM post, it’s that he stepped on someone else’s response in his official blog:
“I have read IanC’s post on the situation and I have just communicated to GOA my thoughts on it. I’ll simply say this, I do not agree with what he said, I do not support what he said and his comments were, in my opinion, way out of line.”
“Death threats are okay as long as you say it in an angry voice.”
If Mark Jacobs showed up in IanC’s office with a rack and the statement that “nobody expects the Spanish inquisition!” because of GOA’s inability to keep their authentication servers running then this argument wouldn’t exist. That being said, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a CM to take it from behind and enjoy it from every forum troll who has wasted a few hours trying to get a beta to run.
Am I getting carried away with the MJ + medieval implement of torture/execution analogies?
about 1 year ago
“Yes a CM should not have to worry about the CEO stepping on them. But when the CM is making things worse either by posting or not posting, its a good thing to have someone step in and steady things. This is what Mark did and he was 100% right to do so.”
I disagree – as their manager he should have been getting them to do their job rather than doing it for them. In the future he just made their job (and his) that much worse.
about 1 year ago
Are there even betas at all, of any game?
From what I have seen when I was part of a closed beta, and from what I have heard from other beta testers, is that most beta feedback is ignored anyway.
The only way to MAYBE get heard is to devote your entire LIFE to the beta test. And those are the types of people a developer should NOT LISTEN TO.
The whole beta concept has been dead and ruined for at least 5-10 years now.
-Michael Hartman
Blogging about Online Gaming and Virtual Worlds:
http://www.muckbeast.com
about 1 year ago
Sorry Amber, but Community Managers are the bottom of the barrel. They are low level employees who are paid to trot out whatever they are told to trot out.
Mark Jacobs, love him, hate him, or something in between, has more than earned the right to talk about games – especially his own. His comments have a lot more value and are a lot more interesting than the PR vetted drivel some worthless CM spews on a forum.
And the lack of official forums means anything the CMs do will be crap anyway.
-Michael Hartman
Blogging about Online Gaming and Virtual Worlds:
http://www.muckbeast.com
about 1 year ago
DoubleD says:
> I find it funny there is an unofficial blog post on war
> hammer from the big cheese, yet no official war hammer
> forums? I’m confused there.
Good point. No game, or company, has any right to complain about ANYTHING “information” related when they don’t even have official forums.
That is one of the most laughably horrible decisions ever. It was a disaster for DAoC. It was a disaster for Tabula Rasa. Why repeat it with WAR? *boggle*
about 1 year ago
Dromedary, Mark is not IainC’s manager. They’re not even in the same company. Even if he were, there are three layers of management between a front-line CM and the studio manager.
about 1 year ago
Channel Massive would like to officially welcome Mark Jacobs to the blog-o-sphere.
Now run! Run as fast as those tree trunks can carry you.
Jason (resident drunken idiot of Channel Massive)
about 1 year ago
Jeremy, thanks for the clarification – although I don’t know the actual hierarchy I assumed the CM’s are not direct reports to Mark. Please abstract “manager” to management.
I still don’t understand that if the CM is not doing their job properly, why doesn’t management get on the horn to the CM and their manager to correct the situation through them, rather than around them?
about 1 year ago
However, just as with DAoC, once the game goes LIVE, I’ll slowly disengage and go back to merely reading the forums and occasional comments but leaving the vast majority of the heavy lifting to Bob and crew.
Why so?
about 1 year ago
Ah, the wheels of bureaucracy and corporations turning in upon themselves to protect each other and their precious departments are so amusing to read about. GOA screwed up. Their CSM made it worse. He stuck his foot in his mouth and lumped all his potential customers as borderline sociopaths in an -official- statement when that kind of opinion is much more forgivable on a personal blog post site.
Mark Jacobs cut through the red tape, shared his personal opinion and said he thought it was out of line, echoing most of what sane people think too. That tells the average consumer that there’s a legitimate human being near the helm of Mythic and builds up stock and trust.
So it was at the cost of hanging out GOA’s CSM to dry. So what? He got himself into trouble in the first place. He needs to come out, apologize, and commit harakiri like a man.
By defending the right of CS and CM departments to close ranks among themselves and try to smooth things over by going “Oh, no one’s really at fault or to blame,” that’s just defending instutionalized processes that don’t actually make things better. Too often, we try and preserve company hierarchies and systems that don’t actually work out of respect for the traditional “it’s always been done this way.”
Forget that. Do whatever works.
Do you really need a community management or PR dept if they’re not doing their jobs properly? Apparently not, if Mark Jacobs can do it better. Better to replace them with people who can actually help the solution than create more problems.
about 1 year ago
“Forget that. Do whatever works.”
… which is apparently the CEO of one company publicly chastising the workers of another company in another region for what they are doing with a central product.
Does IainC get right of reply? Can he blog about getting that phone call from Mark? Can he report the entire story? Probably not, if he wants to keep his job.
The point of CMs is to manage the community, which includes stuff like this, If Jacobs is going to blog a response every time something happens, being a CM is going to suck even more than it usually can because you will be left with no power. One minute you are reporting what you’ve been told by your management, the next Jacob’s has a blog post up that emasculates your entire role. Good luck in that job.
And again: WAR has no official forums. But apparently blogs are a great way to “listen” to the community. *boggle*
about 1 year ago
So much to comment on, I don’t know where to begin. I suppose I’ll start with GOA screwing up and someone saying EA could have been a better choice. To be honest, EA doesn’t exactly have an exemplary track record with MMOs. In fact, I cringed quite a bit when I heard Mythic joined up with them. I for one love Mythic, especially their community managers for how well they handled a majority of DAoC’s issues. I mean, how many gaming companies admit to their mistakes and make classic servers?
Anyhow, EA on the other hand is not a great company. Yes, they have the financial backing to help Mythic, but their customer service is one of the worst. In fact, it’s probably worse than SOE’s. Speaking from experience, I pre-ordered 2 Collector’s Editions of Warhammer back in July 18th. I never received my open beta codes, despite sending them 3-4 emails. They insisted my order was taken care of and that beta codes ship 7-10 days after order is placed. Well, they never got emailed to me and I know I’m only one of a slew of EA customers who got that shaft.
Than we have my Fed Ex delivery of my 2 games becoming pointless because my order still shows a status of Submitted, instead of Shipped. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t CE headstart begin on Sunday? Well, Fed Ex doesn’t deliver on Sundays and I sincerely doubt EA has shipped my order.
It doesn’t really matter anyway, since I’m flying out to Ft. Bragg for EFMB competition. So I will miss the first 2 weeks of WAR. I’m still going to give EA a bunch of crap for tainting Mythic’s good reputation, which I give them credit for simply because of Sanya Thomas and the developers. Not to mention their continuing approach of honesty about the game. Funcom should learn a thing or two from Mythic about community management, lol.