Broken Toys

@Kayn

When I had mine out they gave me liquid Hydrocodone. So I would get one of those giant gas station 64oz. insulated cups and fill it with ice tea, honey, and a shot and a half of narcotic. Those first two days just flew by.

I think it’s naive to think that there is a technology ‘fix’ that can’t be overcome by market forces.

I have the serious feeling none of us are against RMT, but we’re all against abusing it at the expense of the game. So the only solution I can think of is building systems that support the RMT we want over the Real Life Piracy we don’t.

People stealing your designs on Second Life? Virtually barcode everything so that it can only be worn and traded by your avatar if it’s found within the sold item database in that store – then the only things people can sell are painstakingly recreated knock offs of your designer gear that they’ve had to make from scratch.

People selling Gold in WoW? Implement a backend system that at least makes this type of transaction safe by connecting it to Blizzard’s account transaction machines – maybe Blizzard can charge a 1% commission on every transfer. Its not going to stop the RMT, but at least it obfuscates everyone involved and keeps it official and Blizzard will keep records about who’s trafficing the most gold, and enforce quotas. People won’t want to risk the unofficial stuff (complete with bannings and hack risks) when the official channel is easier and costs them nothing.

Okay so these half-assed laisez faire solutions aren’t going to work. They sound like someone recommending free condoms to stop teenage pregnancy when the only arguments that could feasibly fit on the table are either No Protection or Chastity Belts, but there must be some solution out there that’d work. After all, this field of play has only been around for less than three decades. Someone will sort some standard out.

Makaze, Thanks for the tip about iced tea and a thermos. I’ll bear it in mind

“Users of games see virtual worlds as somewhat boring games.
Users of virtual worlds see games as somewhat shallow virtual worlds. ”
Correct! but let me add something to it:
Both types of users DON’T WANT ‘Real Life’ to interviene in what they are doing!
BTW, that’s why we subdivided our Metaforum (can be viewed here: http://yolto.com) into THREE sections that don’t overlap (mmm… sometimes they do actually): Gamers say, Real Life and Residents say. Note that ‘Real Life’ separates two types you were describing, it’s not an accident. Just in case, u kno’.

>I think this may be the context that we were missing earlier. Think of all the madness we could have avoided if we had discovered it earlier.

>Anyhow, back on topic… I prefer grapefruit juice. I prefer as much pulp as will fit in the container. I prefer it mixed with vodka.

I agree. Oh, except without the vodka. Oh, P.S. you have no sense of humour or irony re: Time Cub.

“So that *in addition to the anti-RMT majority of worlds* there can emerge some minority pro RMT.”

Nobody is arguing that the minority of worlds/games with RMT features cannot exist side-by-side closed-economy worlds/games.

Refuting a point nobody is making has a special name.

http://tinyurl.com/3a8u8f

I’m with Walter Yarbrough on this one.

Yes, it’s special name is “Todd,” Todd.

I have to go to extra special lengths to burn in that point since about 100 people on the first thread accused me of “wishing to make everything like I want it” or “wishing to impose my way on everybody” or “insisting on taking away RMT”.

As long as Bonedead will stay in his little perfect utopian worlds and not impose his socialist crap on my free and open economy, I’m good : )

The End.

Ms. Neva — Your posts have continued to make the same basic error, that of comparing the basic notion of a level playing field with socialism. Which, I understand, is what you do – having read various writings from you from all over the web, it is difficult to find some topic that you don’t at some point bring socialism into the mix.

Games are driven, first and foremost, by the notion of basic fairness. This is especially true with competitive games, which captures most of those in the classic MMO space. The player base is entirely fanatical about it, which is not unusual. Once a game or sport loses its perceived integrity, it doesn’t take very long for interest in the sport to wane – one reason why Barry Bonds is being threatened with lawsuits, and the case of the New England Patriots possibly cheating in the Superbowl is taken so seriously. For a more egregious example, see the Black Sox and Pete Rose.

There are different ways to maintain integrity of the sport in question. The NFL forces the teams to comply with a ’salary cap’, limiting how much each team can spend on their roster. Before this happened, Superbowls were limited to 3 to 4 contending teams that could afford to outspend their opponents every year, and fans of teams in smaller markets every year. These rules might be considered ’socialist’ by casual observers, but the NFL is in fact a ruthlessly efficient business, and considered by most accounts to be the most successful sports business in the world.

The thing about game integrity is that it is primarily in the mind of the users, and the creators can shape it, but they always have to be sensitive to the perception, which is often stronger than reality. Magic: the Gathering, for example, is a money game, and players know going into it know that that is the case. People have no problem with grey markets for cards, and Wizards of the Coast actively encourages the trading to happen. The competitive nature of the game has been built with this trading aspect built into the game. It’s also worth knowing that MTG:Online has a much smaller following than WoW – a lot of people are put off by the fact that they have to outspend their opponents to have a chance. MTG does, however, earn more per customer than most MMOs.

Raising the specter of socialism simply succeeds in raising noise and dust around the central issue, which is how to deal with the percieved integrity of a competitive environment once you allow RMT to occur.

Neva, I want to reply to your post at *, and mention how for example if you enter the words, ’sell account wow’ into the Google search engine it turns up 365,000 results.. but it has nothing to do with my own agenda, which is convincing retarded game designers not to make games that suck so much, for example VPellen wondering if brute force might not be the only way to counter gold farming like I was arguing for the entirety of the last thread lol,…. and so I won’t respond to anything you wrote, much as I would like to.

Damion, it’s hard to see normal stuff when peering through such hatred and vitriol. What I say is pretty normal.

Re: “t of comparing the basic notion of a level playing field with socialism. Which, I understand, is what you do”. No, I’m not stupid. If this were all about a level playing field, I’d be for it. Level playing field is what I call on the Lindens to put in all the time — because they are always feting elites in the inner core.

This is about COERCION. About stripping people forcibly. Oh, you say. They willingly joined a game with these rules, so shut up? But kids don’t even know there is an alternative. A teenager could make a store and sell things in Second Life legally. They don’t have to buy from WoW goldfarmers to fill up their afternoons. That’s my point. It’s about choice. The “level playing field” you talk about is uravnilovka, which was the Soviet term for forcibly levelling everybody — not providing equal opportunity, but providing equal income and outcome — forcibly. Oh, I get it that people WANT that. But in part it’s because they are induced to think there is something delightful and pastoral about this lovely “level field”. They never get to ask: is there a different kind of level field that is made by THE RULE OF LAW over even the game-gods, rather than game-gods stripping everybody at the gates. Can you grasp these subtleties?

You’re imagining in a tendentious and snarky way that I’m claiming “fairness” is socialism.

It’s not.

Fairness is the rule of law. The kind of rule of law that even Eric Bethke or Raph Koster, enlightened game gods though they be, can’t concede. And it is not about their right of free expression as publishers. They have that right already under real-life law — a rule of law that they get to play THEIR meta game under. Now we need to have that TOO. That’s all. We as users, as co-creators.

Um, I totally get it about how fanatical people get about fairness. In part, this is a bit of uravnilovka spirit nesting deep within them –t hey cannot be happy that their neighbour has a cow, and they must aspire to work towards a cow — they want the state to take away that cow.

And even more basic idea underneath all this is how people view wealth. Either they believe it is generated by work and creativity. Or they think there is only so much of it, and every dollar I earn is at your expense.

It’s the belief in the latter, socialist concept that generates legion of screaming fanboyz hating land barons, hating those who criticize anti-RMT as limited (if extended throughout the Metaverse), screeching in general about people they view as “ripping them off”. But, all that’s happening, if you believe the *other* idea, that wealth is created (just like the game gods created!) is that goldfarmers and cheaters are creating wealth with ingenuity. You may not like its tackyness and cheating, but all they did was get other people to buy from them. All the hate on the gold farmers, nothing to say about those who buy?

Raising the valid scrutiny of the Specter of Socialism Wandering Through the Metaverse isn’t dust and noise. It feels that way because it’s true and biting; it feels that way because you would have to question your religion.

It’s about asking why integrity comes *at this price*. Allowing a side market in trading cards is like the Soviets having the beriozkas with the little matryoshka dolls and caviar for ridiculous prices only in dollars. It’s not an economy, it’s mere tourist trinkets.

Again, I’m all for the integrity of games. I can fully grasp how un-fun it is. But I don’t want this worldview to prevail. It’s not merely about integrity and a level field. It’s about wealth and power and social systems. You cannot pretty it up. It’s what it is.

Gaming is big business. It’s about to get bigger! 10 million WoW is a level playing field with integrity threatened by RMT cheaters. 50 million WoW is a republic with socialism as its social system and the need for brutal, repressive measures to keep socialism in one country.
So please, don’t tell me I don’t know anything about socialism. I’ve eaten more socialism for breakfast for 30 years than you’ll ever grasp in your lifetime.

maybe I will be like Neva, and suppose if you throw enough words at someone with limited comprehension, they will reach enlightenment:

Games are driven, first and foremost, by the notion of basic fairness. This is especially true with competitive games, which captures most of those in the classic MMO space. The player base is entirely fanatical about it, which is not unusual. Once a game or sport loses its perceived integrity, it doesn’t take very long for interest in the sport to wane – one reason why Barry Bonds is being threatened with lawsuits, and the case of the New England Patriots possibly cheating in the Superbowl is taken so seriously. For a more egregious example, see the Black Sox and Pete Rose.

Since we like using WoW so much as an example in these threads. Tell me, how fair is it for a lvl 15 player, new to WoW, entering a BG for the first time, to go up against a lvl 19 twink with three times their hitpoints, twice their damage, 50% dodge and 25% crit? Is it more or less unfair than someone who is at the level cap being forced to contemplate the idea of someone else using RL money to *gasp* buy in-game progression?

RMT only occurs because of imbalance that already exists in the game. From one perspective, all RMT does is fix that imbalance.

Do you concede? :​P

For me to concede, you’d have to actually start being right.

How fair is it for a player who is winning Monopoly by carefully controlling Park Place and Boardwalk to suddenly find himself losing out to someone who simply took money out of the bank?

How fair is it for a baseball player to work daily in the gym, keep himself in top shape, eat right, exercise, and be surpassed by a player who took steroids?

How fair is it for a player to make photocopies of magic cards he does not own in order to compete in high end tournaments?

How fair it is is largely a CULTURAL phenomenon agreed upon by the players of the game. In the examples I gave, clearly examples 1 and 2 are percieved as not fair by most observers of the game, whereas 3 is one of considerable debate in the magic community right now. Whether or not these things are ACTUALLY unfair is less important than the perception of the audience of these games, because without that social compact with the audience, the game community ceases to be cohesive.

Put another way — it matters NOT A WHIT if you convince me, Scott or Richard (and incidentally, I’m not nearly as anti-RMT as one might think). What matters is whether or not the community collectively decides to accept this. Judging by the relative lukewarm reception of EQ2’s Station Exchange server, this is an uphill battle.

Incidentally, most players of WoW find twinking level 19 alts to be pretty unfair as well.

How fair is it for a player who is winning Monopoly by carefully controlling Park Place and Boardwalk to suddenly find himself losing out to someone who simply took money out of the bank?

Oh, I wasn’t aware that someone else in WoW buying an epic flying mount means you’ve lost. Is jealousy really such a strong motivating factor in that game?

How fair is it for a baseball player to work daily in the gym, keep himself in top shape, eat right, exercise, and be surpassed by a player who took steroids?

How fair is it for a player to make photocopies of magic cards he does not own in order to compete in high end tournaments?

How fair it is is largely a CULTURAL phenomenon agreed upon by the players of the game. In the examples I gave, clearly examples 1 and 2 are percieved as not fair by most observers of the game, whereas 3 is one of considerable debate in the magic community right now. Whether or not these things are ACTUALLY unfair is less important than the perception of the audience of these games, because without that social compact with the audience, the game community ceases to be cohesive.

Pro baseball players normally do not compete against amateurs. In MMOs, they do.

You are correct, the perception of unfairness (aka, which metrics different people use to define ‘unfair’) is much more important than whether you yourself have decided whether or not something is unfair. And people who buy gold have decided that it is unfair that they, people with little time to play games during their life, should be forced to spend most of that time grinding levels and gold, just so they are able to reach the level of being able to have fun against fair opponents.

Your own arguments, I use them against you.

<What matters is whether or not the community collectively decides to accept this.

Collectivism. Yikes, that’s socialism. No. Wait. It’s communism!

somehow, using a touchpad, i managed to swerve my pointer across half the screen and click the ’submit comment’ button :​P It would have been a good place to stop anyway… but~

Put another way — it matters NOT A WHIT if you convince me, Scott or Richard (and incidentally, I’m not nearly as anti-RMT as one might think). What matters is whether or not the community collectively decides to accept this.

Do you even know what I’m arguing for? :​P From what you say it doesn’t sound like it. So I will ask: you are saying that the community would collectively decide to reject games that were designed to be fun at all levels of progression, instead of at the top? Lol. I am aware that it probably won’t matter if I convince you, or Scott, or Richard, or anyone else, and that I probably haven’t even convinced anyone that they need to rethink the way they approach certain parts of game design (much less offer specific ideas.. which I could easily do, but to the same ineffectiveness), but somehow I still try. LoL.

Whereas $20 means the same to people inside and outside World X. So someone who values $20 will treat widget acquisition differently than someone who values, say, their in-world reputation alongside the raw economic value of the widget. Externally-imposed RMT devalues that context.

What you are saying here is that the value of your widget depends on both the rarity of other widgets in the world, and how those other widgets tended to be acquired. A further complexity that you did not mention, but I feel you would agree with, is that the value of your widget also depends on how easy it is to distinguish you from people who acquired their widgets in other fashions; in other words, what the uncertainty level is in judgement. An obvious widget-buyer who obtained their widget with a payment of $20 and announces it to everyone they meet (and yet for some reason record of this transaction is untracable by the world’s controllers and the widget-buyer will not be banned) detracts nothing from the value of your own widget and has no ‘corrosive’ effect on the world, ne? (Assuming widget has no practical and exploitable value over other players without widgets ofc.. but this analogy is getting too deep :​P)

Actually, I’m having some orange juice right now. The falling dollar price means that Tropicana orange juice is down to only 140 yen for a half-liter bottle.

Incidentally, it is 100% from concentrate with no pulp, but it also says “no sugar added”, so I think I’m getting a good deal.

Kayn: I had the choice of apple juice or orange juice, but today I went with orange juice because I also had some dried cranberries for breakfast.

Re: Strip mining pixels.

Actually the gold miners are creating currency, not wealth as defined by economics.

Curse the Goddamned Communists in the US Mint and Secret Service who won’t allow us to print an infinite supply of dollars (limited only by time/attention of printing it) into the economy and stifling capitalism. I could sell those dollars for Euros, don’t ya know.

((vendors like the mount trainer and epic mount sellers in WoW can supply an infinite amount of wealth, if you have the currency.. also, any BoE items they have, including crafting mats, are ‘wealth’. Also, anyone who sells their character by definition created wealth during their character’s development

I think Neva hates me now, I said he shouldn’t get offended at people referring to him in the female gender, on his blog. See, doesn’t that sound silly.))

Have to say this:

Printing money in the virtual world isn’t like printing money in the real world. In the real world, money has no value of its own. In (most) virtual worlds, there are things that an NPC will always sell to the player. In those games, the virtual currency represents those resources which the NPC sells to the player. Flooding the market in a virtual world isn’t like flooding the market with money, it’s like flooding the market with a specific kind of resource.

hey lum this is probably off topic but do you remember that shockwave flash – can i have ur robes? hell no from some TOM guild website for UO like 90 years ago? – you know where that is anymore? its still funny after all these years.

not only what VPellen said, but also…
- inflation in a well-designed MMO economy is countered by gold sinks.
- the currency influx from gold farming is limited by both supply and demand. Gold farmers do not have infinite time with which to farm gold, so their sales will be at a nonzero price. Gold buyers do not have infinite money.

The effect is limited.

WoW does a good job with the ‘distributed enforcement’ model, the same as used by Youtube with commenting and spam filters for picking out bad senders. Along with active CS enforcement, the advertising isn’t a big problem.

The vocal segment is necessarily against gold farming and other ‘illegal’ services. But as Neva has pointed out countless times (or maybe someone else… this is hardly a new argument), you wouldn’t have 109384902384 websites selling gold if there wasn’t demand.

If you believe everyone who wants to bypass grinds in your game is ‘bad’, you will fail to understand the problems in your game that causes those grinds, and you will make a crappy game. I don’t know if I’ll bother pointing out the flaws in the argument of the next person who says otherwise.

“Actually it just devalues that stuff in addition to the gold. Anything that can be freely converted to or from gold at a fixed price is devalued at exactly the same rate as gold.”

Yes, that’s partially my point. But what I mean is that flooding the economy with gold in this case isn’t like printing money because the money itself can actually be used for something. In these environments, “gold” is synonymous with “what gold can buy”. In this, all virtual economies with this model are actually just barter economies in disguise.