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How To Make A Game With ‘PvP Done Right’
Considering that every time I make a post with “P”, “v” and “P” somewhere in the title the ensuing comments pile up into three digits, either Scott Kurtz has a lot of fans or there’s a whole lot of people still mad about getting ganked in front of Despise 10 years later. And given the recent comments by Auran on the less than stellar success of their new PvP MMO, it seems a refresher course may be in order on H0w 2 mak3 y0ur playerZ gAnk. So, here is my incredibly humble checklist of how to make your player vs player not morph into player vs company. In other words… a design manifesto cleverly disguised as some incredibly obvious aphorisms! I can speak from experience, of course, having worked on one of the more successful PvP-centric MMOs and, much more importantly, having complained a lot on message boards.
PvP should not be the focus of your entire game. There have been three MMOs where the entire game consisted of player vs player combat: Planetside, WW2 Online, and Fury. Although all of these games are still running, none of them were considered market successes. (That’s not to say that a PvP-only game can’t be successful – but be prepared to consider a niche title a success.) Very few players in an MMO want to be “all gank, all the time”. Even in a game where PvP combat is the primary focus, such as Shadowbane or Eve, other elements of the game (city building, economy, etc) provide context for the persistant-world battling. With that context, your players exist in a world at war. Without that context, your game is a long-running deathmatch. And it’s safe to say other people are probably doing deathmatch better than you are.
PvP should not be a random afterthought. Or if it is, be prepared for it to be an afterthought that few bother with. Gameplay mechanics that may be crucial for the player vs environment game can spell hot death when used against other players, such as crowd control. If you go the path of designing a combat system that works well against AI monsters and raiding, and then retrofit it to a PvP environment, at least establish a framework so that what works against a monster doesn’t necessarily work against a player. However, if you go down that dark pathway, be prepared to hear a lot of complaining from your newly disenfranchised players that you just nerfed into goo. Another problem with “hey, let’s throw in a dueling system” PvP is that, by definition, that system will have little context.
PvP players hate classes. Generally, the strongest advocates of skill-based systems are PvP players. Not much of a surprise, since PvP players tend to also be the more experienced MMO players who feel as though they want to play on “advanced” mode. Class based systems also breed a sense of entitlement and disillusionment, as the players feel as though their class is inferior to everyone else. (Note: in a class-based system game, check the message boards for that class – if there’s not several dozen pages of people complaining their class is underpowered, that’s a good sign that class is wildly overpowered.) Plus there’s always the allure of coming up with a “build” that no one else has (even though everyone else in a skill-based game is playing one of three builds – maybe two) and bragging about it on message boards.
PvP players need classes. The best argument for this is what Damion Schubert has termed tactical transparency. The easiest way to illustrate this in a PvP context: players want to be able to build contingency plans. It’s hard to have a contingency plan in the heat of battle when the best you can determine about an enemy coming over the hill is “uh, he’s big and he is holding some sort of weapon”. Note that you don’t need a class to fit this need so much as a clearly visible role. If your PvP game is in a fantasy environment (note: stop), make sure your casters can’t wear platemail and tote a halberd. There, you just made it easy to identify a caster. Now, to define it further, make it so your healers have to wear a Pope hat to have a strong connection to the divine. Hey, now your players can target healers by looking for the funny hat. You just made gameplay. Also, even if your game does have classes, some means of differentiating player choices within each class is crucial. World of Warcraft’s talent system is a great example of this; a priest can be a good healer, can melt faces in PvP, or can spend points in that other tree no one uses.
PvP players detest grinding. This is something of a trick question as all players detest grinding. However, PvPers will be the loudest of the contingent demanding a shortcut. Be it level grinding, skill grinding, reputation, items, whatever roadblocks you put in the way for players to reach the end of the game in two weeks, people wanting to engage in PvP will demand that, yes, they want to reach the end of the game in two weeks, thank you.
PvP players need some grinding. Without some form of ‘grinding’ – in other words, character persistence and improvement – you have a world without meaning. No one grinds in Counterstrike (unless you count the very real grind of player skill and oh boy are we coming back to that one in a bit). Very few PvP players want no character improvement – what the argument boils down to is that they want a small “ramp-up” time, and then small incremental improvements over time that give their characters a wider set of abilities without making the constantly growing equation of power growth = time invested that is so common in MMOs to date. At any rate, that’s the charitable view. The cynical view is that the average PvP player wants player growth for everyone else capped to 10% to 25% less powerful than they personally are at any given moment.
PvP should not screw new players over. This is the No, You Cannot Be A Juvenile Little Brat rule. For examples of what happens when that rule is broken, consult everyone’s favorite, Ultima Online In The Good Old Days. Another example is “world PvP” in World of Warcraft on PvE servers, which usually consists of a passel of bored level 70s deciding to camp on a low level town owned by the other side and wipe out all the characters. Most games prevent this by making NPCs in low level zones higher level than the attacking players, or simply prevent them from bottom feeding in low level zones entirely. However, it’s pretty clear that Blizzard intended for players to be able to “raid” low level zones – without thinking through the impact that has on precisely the players who (a) cannot actually fight back and (b) are learning how to play the game and (c) deciding if they want to continue paying for said game. Alienating people who have not yet decided if that free month you gave them is enough time to get tired of your player base’s crap? Not a good idea. I mean, clearly, look how badly it’s hurting Blizzard!
PvP should screw over someone. At the same time, without someone bitterly throwing a keyboard against the wall and breaking it yet again thanks to yet another goddamned stupid pickup group not that I would know anything about any of that, PvP combat becomes just a meaningless exchange of particle effects. Part of opting into PvP (and oh, yes, we shall return to that point in a moment as well) should entail the understanding that not only can you lose, you will lose something dear to you. Whether that is as simple as time, or as permanent as item loss or even permadeath (if you’re particularly insane), consequences are part and parcel of meaningful PvP.
“You gotta keep ‘em separated.” Whenever you hear old-school Ultima Online veterans indulge in nerd rage!!!1! over something called ‘Trammel’, they’re talking about geographic PvP separation – in this specific case, the introduction of safe zones into UO. Which pissed off every vocal PvPer playing UO, marked the end of a glorious era of a true shared virtual world, was a horrible sap thrown to skill-less “Trammel newbs”, and, oh, also, stopped the incredible bleeding of customers UO was suffering to the very-much-not-a-shared-virtual-PvP-world Everquest. Although the stereotypical MUD-era “PK switch” doesn’t work very well in an MMO environment, geographical separation does work very well indeed for providing a pure “opt-in” to a PvP-free-fire zone, even a ‘soft’ separation as seen in Eve where there’s not a line but more or less likelihood of retaliation by the NPC police force. And if you think seperation/opt-in PvP isn’t a very good idea for whatever reason (purity of your virtual world vision, desire to have a hard core PvP experience, deep and undying hatred of your new players), keep this simple fact in mind – your game will have a geographically based PvP switch. The question you should answer is – will it occur within your game, or by players leaving it for games with other rules systems?
But not too separated. At the same time, there should be encouragement to actually enter what I’ve been known to call ‘Gankytown’ (if only so I can intone “MASTER BLASTER RULES GANKYTOWN”) (note: when designing PvP systems, it often helps to indulge your inner 14 year old). Both to give the battle-hardened denizens someone new to slaughter, but also, and more seriously, giving new players a taste of battle so they can discover whether or not they have a taste for it. The best way to do this is to place optional, but valuable rewards for new players (and only new players, preferably through the mechanism of quests or other one-time-only reward systems) that encourage them to get into the fight against other new players from opposing sides after the same thing. Continuing this progress through to “battlegrounds” where hopefully even-matched players compete against one another, and players discover that losing a PvP match doesn’t actually cause massive internal bleeding, and more importantly start to make contacts among other interested players and guilds. Guild Wars tends to do this pretty well with its PvP minigames, as does World of Warcraft (though the low level WoW battlegrounds tend to be dominated by specialist twinks in a sort of PvP minigame, which can alienate the truly new player). Other possible carrots include valuable raw materials for crafting and, in level grind games, greatly expedited experience gain vs. other players (which worked very well for Dark Age of Camelot).
In the endless player skill argument, you should assume your players don’t have any. I’m tempted just to leave that sentence as is. However, the player-skill vs character-skill argument is, in the sense of this discussion, almost a red herring. Does your game have twitchy gameplay? Is player growth simply gated by whomever has the most time or cash on eBay to spend? Are your rules so arcane and so often patched that your players have to level up their Google skill just to get an accurate spell list off your website? No matter what gates exist, there will be some. And there will be those who are better at working those gates than others. It’s what I call the tyranny of the skilled minority. A given small percentage – be it 10% or 20% or whatever – will win any contest consistently, when faced with the less skilled 80% or 90%. There’s not much you can do about this, save be aware of it, and more importantly, ensure that losing isn’t too painful a proposition. Note that this directly contradicts with the rule that “PvP should screw over someone.” Congratulations on the realization that no matter where you step, the mine will go off directly under your foot.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t reward those players who do. Players should always feel as though PvP combat is more than just a random dice roll weighted by what level their Panzerelf Warden ground up to. Even if a player is consistently losing to the skilled minority when they are matched up with them, if they feel that in a fair fight they had a chance of winning, the pain of that loss is lessened considerably. If the player feels as though given enough practice and skill they can turn the tables, they’re motivated to do so (and also possibly pay for a new keyboard). If a player feels as though they had no chance because the Emotionally Distressed Wizardling class just pushed a button that vaporized all players within 500 feet, that motivation usually expresses itself as “finding another game”.
PvP players are angry and bitter, and will hate you. This has nothing to do with design. I just thought I should warn you. There’s been enough bad games out there that you have no honeymoon period at all. Sorry.
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about 2 years ago
I’d have been happy if ShadownBane was stable… game flaws and all. In fact, rule one – make sure it’s stable… all else can follow.
about 2 years ago
As far as “PvP players need classes”..
What about a Sci-Fi game like Anarchy Online, which has a skill system containing over 100 skills, and is set in an environment where it doesn’t participate in the “armor class” system — anybody can wear any armor and many classes end up looking the same regardless of whether they’re melee or spellcaster. A good example was before the first expansion, there was a set of armor that had +Health and +NCU (memory to store beneficial buffs) on every piece, and it therefore became the “standard” for any sort of endgame or PvP. Funcom tried to break that up by adding the “Tier” armors for each class in Shadowlands, giving every class a unique looking set of armor, but that armor got replaced quickly enough with rare and unique loots from the endgame zones and raids. It thus became hard to quickly identify somebody on the battlefield.
So my question is, is there no way to innovate and take the approach Funcom did with AO, do you HAVE to stick to the “casters wear dresses” way of thinking?
Also, AO’s skill system exposed many flaws in trying to give players more choices and not sticking to the simplistic approach to skill systems that say, DAoC had (5-6 skills, pre determined by class). AO had > ~100 skills, and no method to reset any of them (until now, but the reset points are in very short supply and cost real money I believe). So while it was cool that you could be a pure spellcasting class and still raise your shotgun skill and wield a shotgun.. with every content update, and every new “flavor of the month” weapon, the people who had no more skill reset points, or didn’t invest in the skill to use the latest weapon, ended up being gimped and fell behind. Again, is it impossible to push the envelope and give players that much choice, and yet still not create situations where new content and new, better items = leaving players behind?
about 2 years ago
On classes: another way to look at it is that PvPers hate rock-paper-scissors matchups. Personal agency should determine wins and losses — I lost because I should have performed better, it’s not that I should have chosen a different class at character creation.
about 2 years ago
Or, as a caveat – I should not have lost in PvP because I haven’t ground through the Impossible 40-Man Epic Dungeon a hundred times to get the Incredible Purple Armor and the Magnificent Instakill Purple Meatcleaver.
about 2 years ago
Just as a note, this isn’t done, I’m in meetings most of today but I just thought it’d be fun to get what I had up. Things like item centricity, grief protection, etc are obviously on the list. I’ll ninja-stealth edit this entry probably this evening.
about 2 years ago
I say stick to space based combat MMOs, PVP seems to work much more easily for some reason I can’t explain.
about 2 years ago
There’s one approach a purely (character or player) skill-based game could take. Rather than making one armor “set,” tie the armor to what the character is doing at the time, not by what bonuses are needed, but by what the logistics of the role are. For example: a sniper is pretty much paired with light armor due to the re-load time and the fact that once a shot goes off, a lot of attention goes toward killing the sniper. They need to reload fast, not have breathing constricted (and thus shots thrown off) by heavy armor, and be able to get away if spotted. A caster might also be hindered by that heavy armor, and be unable to make the complex gestures needed for high-level spells. A heavy weapons guy might not mind being slowed down or hindered by heavy armor, because his job is to sit and spray, and he won’t be ultra-mobile while firing, either.
That is, instead of going for what item gives you +Agility and +Crit as a Hunter, you look for what item won’t totally screw you into dying at an inopportune moment or throw off your shots as a sniper. The game becomes more about player choice and skill, and maintains the balance of “Sniper != heavy armor”
about 2 years ago
This reminds me, hasn’t it been well over a year since you said you were on a project you couldn’t talk about yet?
Are you anywhere closer to talking about it?
about 2 years ago
“make sure it’s stable…”
I disagree. Stability is important, but fun is more important. To put it another way, you noticed stability problems with Shadowbane because it was fun… if you hadn’t been enjoying your time, you wouldn’t have even noticed that it crashed except to say “oh good an excuse to leave right this instant.”
about 2 years ago
I did not play Fury after playing beta for two reasons. Funny, the first is the same reason I leave most MMOs. Too much of a time sink.
In Fury’s case it wasn’t leveling that was the sink, it was trying to figure out all of the combinations of weapon, armor, and skills/spells to be effective. In Fury, since it was PvP only, I was hoping that it would be a game where I could jump on for a couple of hours, win or lose. But no, I had to study the combinations and find out what works best as you do in most PvP games. In the old days, the hardcore gaming days, I would have poured over tons of data and made my own theories and went with it. Today, I simply don’t have that kind of time. This shouldn’t be a problem for the hardcore pvpers.
Finally, what you could do solo was too limited. I could join a pick up group, yeah right, no self-respecting pvper is going to do that. I could join a free for all arena. After mastering the ffa, there comes a point when you realize that you are only getting beaten by higher level players, players that have taken more time than you to study the combos, or groups of players that forces in ffa. I can live with those but in living with those there was nothing else to do.
Fury would never be a mass market game that people play every day, but it would have filled a nice niche had it documented its combos and advancement better offline so that you didn’t have to spend so much time in game reading the details of every spell, weapon, armor, skill, etc. Also it needs more options for a solo player. 1v1 ladders, tournaments, etc would have helped.
Fury could have been a niche game that I would have played for a long time. My $0.02.
about 2 years ago
As a counter to the statistician’s point about rock-paper-scissors, I’d say that doesn’t necessarily apply in the case of MMO PvP. When you’re playing a class-based team game, it is absolutely fine to have RPS-style balance if there are mobility and forethought advantages – i.e., you can plan for encounters, and you can evade encounters if you get intelligence fast enough.
Planetside works along these lines, where various equipment combinations defeat other combinations in the right circumstances. If you control the encounter space, you can limit the counters (e.g., getting RExo/HA indoors). If you’re caught on the hop, then you’re dead (Reaver spam as you try to make your way on foot from an AMS). There are plenty of “top of their game” players in Planetside, most of them are there because they know how to avoid the fights they’ll lose.
If the game is not clearly team-oriented, then you’re right, you need a way for anything to beat anything else or people will complain about unfair matches. I would have thought Shadowbane and Eve would fall into this category, even with the strong influence of guild affiliation, because the game feels so free-form.
Camelot’s RvR works well, with clearly-defined sides. It doesn’t have the accessability of Planetside, but then it has to support a rich PvE game too. Which leads me into a big essay about how to make playing the PvP game be like playing the PvE game (main culprit here is aggro rules) which I’m not going to spam Scott’s blog with.
about 2 years ago
I think people have a different (and often flawed) views of what is PvP. I mean, when you’re speaking with the average WoW player about PvP, the only thing he qualifies as PvP is the meaningless ganking outside instances and instanced combat like battlegrounds.
But really, there’s a lot more that I consider “PvP”. If you’ve a very dynamic MMO, you’ll automatically get some kind of PvP. Just look at Eve Online, the dynamic markets are VERY PvP. It’s probably even more cutthroat than the space combat itself. When you manufacture stuff in that game and selling it on the market, you’re constantly PvP’ing. Even the missioning (shooting npc’s) is kind of PvP’ish, because the loot and money you make goes into the dynamic world of Eve (inflation).
And I guess it’s needless to remark that your blog-entry here is full of the usual generalizations and cliches.
about 2 years ago
I wouldn’t really say that the examples listed are good examples of absolutist PvP being anathema to market success.
I think it’s fair to say that WWIIOL had a host of other problems that contributed to its slow market start. If anyone remembers them, the first days of Planetside were actually quite good; I imagine their box sales were competitive.
Planetside’s failure in sub numbers was mainly the fault of whoever thought having two base layouts was a good idea, and a lack of community support in the form of ladders and whatnot.
The f13 interview of Auran highlighted what their problems were.
Thing is, we don’t have a good enough example of a PvP-absolute product to say that it can’t be a success. Each one of the entrants so far has had design or production problems that contributed much more to their “downfall” (even though they’re still going) than the core concept did.
about 2 years ago
Rock-Paper-Scissors is fine, and ultimately innevitable in most cases. People would rather lose to Rock than they would do low rand(100) rolls. You just need to allow players to change what hand they’re throwing frequently, both depending on immediate situations and the larger meta-game strategic shifts.
And a complement to the ‘PvP should not be a random afterthought’ should be ‘Everything else should not be a random afterthough either.’ The rest of the game needs to not only be present as your first point states, but it needs to be at least relatively fun even when there isn’t any PvP around, or when you don’t feel like PvPing, or when you’re actively hiding from PvP.
about 2 years ago
I agree whole heartedly with the need classes and believe a class/skill crossover game would work well for PvP. The more I play Team Fortress 2, the more I lean towards this idea as well. There is just something to be said about being able to analyze your opponent on visuals alone, instead of having to die the first fight to “figure out his skills”.
Sure, not knowing your opponents skill set and build, can lead to people arguing that it is better since it involves more “skill”, but honestly I can’t see how it ever gets balanced correctly. There is no point to start balancing in a 100% skill built game. Classes provide a foundation for balance and the ability for the game to give feedback to the player in anticipation to the battle to come.
I’ll always argue for skill-based systems, but I have long since given up tossing out the idea of “classes” as a whole.
about 2 years ago
One point on classes.
EVE gets this prety much right. Its a skill based system but the equipment you choose to equip makes you a defacto class in both function and form. And the equipment can no be changed in combat.
EVE has a ton of problems, but they get c;lass/skills thing right.
about 2 years ago
A second note on something you havent addressed yet
In a free for all sytem you cant give a meta reward(like realm points) for random killing.
Rather you must give meta-rewards for objectives which will encourage “purposeful” PVP and all for communities to devlope.
Mordred is an example of when you dont do this.
On the other hand when you have predetermied hostile sides you can give meta-rewards for random kills.
about 2 years ago
Great post! Though I disagree with the part about class or role needing to be readily identified.
I think PvP actually benefits quite a bit from the mystery of not knowing what any individual player might throw at you. Not only does this provide additional excitement, but it also cuts down on ganking (since gankers tend to go for the least powerful players they can find. If they cant tell at a glance how powerful someone is, they’ll be more hesitant).
You also get the added bonus of learning from experience and developing knowledge of other players via past encounters. In Shadowbane, we came to know the names and abilities of the scouts and assassins that would stalk our players on a regular basis and that gives the world a much more personal feel. I would rather hear ‘Lum is outside our city’ instead of ‘Level 50 Scout outside our city’.
The less blatant info you give out about other players the better, IMO.
about 2 years ago
Easy identification of classes (or at the least, archetypal skill sets) and abilities is absolutely crucial to make a mass market PvP. It makes the game MUCH more accessable and approachable at the beginning of the learning curve if players are able to easily distinguish every class in the playfield and every spell or effect being used. Making it easier at the low end is fundamentally important because newer players will feel much less frustrated if they know WHY and HOW they died than if they died without having any data to incorporate for future encounters.
This is why WoW PvP solo, small skirmish, and group versus group PvP is much more accessable than say DAoC’s PvP, despite both being based on VERY similar abilities dynamics. For instance, in WoW, it is very clear when a paladin casts his bubble or his Blessing of Freedom on another player or himself, where in DAoC it was very difficult to tell when a player was immune to attack via an ability such as Bodyguard. Every WoW ability has a visual effect that is unambiguous AND persists for the duration of the effect, such a Druid’s root spell having its grasping root graphic last for the duration of the effect, whereas the same effect in DAoC only had an animation that fired once for ~1 second at the beginning of the effect, with the player standing there in place with no visual effect for the rest of the duration. This makes the entire process much less frustrating for enemy and ally alike by providing visual feedback to incorporate during the encounter and for future encounters.
about 2 years ago
huge time sink requirements for gear/level achievements also hurt pvp.
pvp competitive players should spend time learning the game their character’s abilities and honing tactics. not raiding dungeon x for item y of asswhooping.
notwithstanding instant on demand character customization, a verteran player of a game should have end-game pvp capable characters in a week or so of dedicated (5 hours) playing.
marginalization of character power gained through play time.
thus avoiding game of forever playing catchup to pvp veterans that never miss a day of play.
UO had it right, a 2 week old character skilled up by a veteran is just as powerful as a character was created the day the server came online. Over time you can achieve huge amounts of wealth/gold/items but none of these made you more powerful in pvp.
about 2 years ago
re: Classes, a lot of posters are just debating semantics of the point. It doesn’t matter what mechanics you use. The point is that your enemy has to have some sort of way at the onset (or during) the battle to know what you’re doing and execute some sort of defense/counter-attack. This mechanic can be anything, really. It just has to be functional.
What’s the first thing you do when the doors of an arena open? “Priest uh…shadow, Warrior, … can’t find the 3rd. They all have paw, so there’s a druid somewhere.”
Quickly identifying your opponent and stating/executing a strategy to defeat that group is incredibly important. If you take that away from players all you’re left with is chaos and group-soloing. You can’t have strategy if there’s nothing to strategize against.
about 2 years ago
Exactly, hellfire. I think what at least some of the other people are saying is that while that needs to be correct, also, not every warrior and priest and druid should be exactly the same. The more differentiation and individualization within a basic archetype, without completely breaking the archetype, the better.
about 2 years ago
During the battle, sure, it makes sense to be able to tell what your opponent is doing. Before the battle, not so much. There’s no reason you should be able to look at another player and instantly know, ‘Hey that’s a level 50 Gnome Barbarian. I’m going to attack him because my class always defeats Gnome Barabarians’. Ambiguity makes for much more interesting gameplay, and promotes interaction beyond, the jump-out-and-kill-those-weaker-than-you mentality. It also encourages player skill. Not knowing initially what your opponent might throw at you, being able to react dynamically to the situation becomes much more important. Otherwise it just, this is class XX, I need to do YY to beat them. You become familiar with opponents you fight more often, and begin to know their skills, abilities and tactics, giving you an extra advantage, unless they are also becoming familiar with you!
Now of course, I’m not talking about a WoW or Warhammer game. I’m talking about a PvP game, which stands for player vs player, not class vs class.
about 2 years ago
The biggest problem with most PvP games is that late adopters are at a disadvantage compared to vets and that hurts your recruitment after the first dizzying post-launch rush.
I mentioned on Psychochild’s blog how I’d fix that and that is to throw out the standard MMO paradigm of ‘this is my character’ and replace it with ‘these are my dudes’. You need a game design that encourages players to take the long view and rewards that are beyond purely powering up the guy who wins. Then you can break the pen and paper character paradigm and instead have players control a bunch of connected characters who all advance within a narrow power band depending on the fortunes of the active one.
This design allows you to use the ‘P’ word in a meaningful way that doesn’t lower the barrier to exit but does allow all the social checks and balances that permadeath promotes such as bounty hunting. If the power band is narrow enough and the core gameplay is present from the start then griefing becomes a non-problem, you’ve converted griefers into regular players by default.
The rest of the design, classes, PvE content, rainbows and unicorns is just gravy and doesn’t automatically get in the way of your desire to have players beat the snot out of each other digitally as it tends to do in regular MMOs.
You could even make it a MMORPGFPSRTS and really cook up people’s preconceptions of what a subscription based PvP game could be.
about 2 years ago
I don’t know if I should be happy or sad.
On the sad side, Lum writing about PvP is the only notable thing that’s happened this week.
On the happy side, Lum is writing about PvP!
about 2 years ago
I wouldn’t say a system that requires months of skill training time before you can meaningfully contribute in PVP (Eve) is “getting the class/skill system right”, especially when you are in addition at a permanent, unalterable disadvantage in total skill points compared to someone who started the game before you did.
about 2 years ago
That’s not how EvE works though. The scariest thing in 0.0 space isn’t the organised gang of three-year vets in faction fitted battleships, it’s the blob of two week old noobs in cheap frigates. Agony Unleashed prove this every week in their PvP University classes.
Additionally the vet with 5 times your skill point total can’t bring all of those skillpoints to bear at the same time, he has greater diversity than the noob and a slight edge due to the fact that most of the time spent training is for the last level of a skill that will give you a fractional advantage over someone who only trained the first 3 or 4 levels but he isn’t and will never be an order of magnitude better 1v1. His big advantage is that he can switch roles between fights, where the noob is limited to being a tackler or additional DPS.
about 2 years ago
Umm, antipwn, I’m not sure I actually understand your point, but did you seriously suggest that permadeath is the way to make “griefing become a non-problem”?
about 2 years ago
Umm, antipwn, I’m not sure I actually understand your point, but did you seriously suggest that permadeath is the way to make “griefing become a non-problem”?
about 2 years ago
arrgh, sorry for the doublepost, wordpress told me there was an error and to reload, and there was no post when I did :/ I now withdraw from a PVP thread when I can’t even win against the stupid board.
about 2 years ago
“The biggest problem with most PvP games is that late adopters are at a disadvantage compared to vets and that hurts your recruitment after the first dizzying post-launch rush.
I mentioned on Psychochild’s blog how I’d fix that and that is to throw out the standard MMO paradigm of ‘this is my character’ and replace it with ‘these are my dudes’. You need a game design that encourages players to take the long view and rewards that are beyond purely powering up the guy who wins. Then you can break the pen and paper character paradigm and instead have players control a bunch of connected characters who all advance within a narrow power band depending on the fortunes of the active one.”
I think this works. It works in EVE, to an extent, where you have ‘these are my ships’, you can’t power up an invincible godship, well you can, but those are not owned by players those are owned by entire alliances. You can however have lots of nice ships for different situations.
It also works for guild-centric games, where you fight to improve not just your own character, but to improve your other guildmates characters or to improve NPC guards on structures your guild owns.
about 2 years ago
about 2 years ago
Ah sorry, I should point out that I am infact antipwn in case that comes across as a little schizophrenic.
I’ve only put an evening’s worth of thought into it but it seems to me that a lot of people have tried to overcome the problems with putting unrestricted PvP into the standard MMO paradigm without notable success. The solution to me seems to be to change the MMO paradigm to one that doesn’t bring all that messy baggage with it. To make a square hole before trying to insert the square peg into your existing range of non-square holes.
about 2 years ago
I didn’t play Planetside to the extent where I can expertly comment on this, but the 6 months or so that I DID put into the game seemed to bear out that variety was a completely workable advancement mechanic.
I went back and played the fodder stuff last year and it still held. I was still able to make kills with my nub. No mechs or fancy vehicles necessary.
about 2 years ago
I think Sara Jensen Schubert and Tannenburg have already brought up the only two real points I would make. Your game shouldn’t be about certain classes trumping other classes, and it also shouldn’t be a requirement that you grind the same dungeon 50 times for boots, PvP or not. Im a giant proponent of random item generation for just that reason. Thanks, DAoC, for showing us how that whole thing should work.
about 2 years ago
DAoC also managed to provide an example of how it *shouldn’t* work with TOA as well.
Although honestly, I’m not sure we have anything great to learn from DAOC, loot-wise. Pre-TOA, PVP gear was either new 50s/lazy 50s in their epics, which weren’t great, or people in 100% crafted suits (and crafting was so painful and bad in that game.)
Post-TOA, it was a WoW-esque loot grind/farm fest, with crafting filling the holes still.
I think the ‘token’ system (a la WoW’s heroic badges or PVP rewards) is probably the best way to go that I’ve seen, either that or 100% player-crafted – but if you want to have meaningful PVE content on top of your PVP (besides whatever the resource gathering model you pick is) that more or less means at least a token loot system if you’re setting your sights on anything but the casual crowd.
about 2 years ago
I wish the lessons of UO were not always so swiftly brushed under the rug. The “Bonedood/Platedood” era was from the very beginnings of the game. UO did really evolve into something special. I think even Lum was pretty enamored of it around the Renaissance/Seige Perilous era.
Eventually UO when down the “separate but equal” path of facetization, which killed the spirit. But I think the players of today would appreciate an old-chool UO-type environment.
The key points for good PvP (as gleaned from UO):
1) Player freedom
(skill based system, open economy, no level-dependent zones)
2) Integrated consequences for bad behavior
(reputation, statloss)
3) Some meta-game way to exert control over the world
(housing, factions, guilds, vendors)
In a modern game world free of lag and obvious expolits/bugs – this is all you need.
about 2 years ago
I think PlanetSide was only a modest success because at the time it was fresh of the limited group of people who were wiling to pay a subscription most uncomfortable or simply bad at playing FPSs.
In the post WOW world where subscriptions are accepted readily I believe a quality FPS MMO could succeed. It probably would be better with a little PVE but I think the twitch nature hurt PS more than the PVP only aspect.
And yes I played it for a few years.
about 2 years ago
I totally agree with Rhino. All they need is that system and you are good to go!
about 2 years ago
Well some interesting things I think I need to mention.
Gain/loss and pvp vs non-pvp seems to be where they all go wrong these days.
Pvp vs non pvp
What all the devs want these days is a robust pvp enviroment cause it keeps players around long after the content is boring. The problem is that unless you put alot of incentive many if not most players dont like pvp. Now this ties directly into the next part.
Gain/loss
How do you handle what you gain and what you loose and they ALL! have major problems.
Winner gains, looser gets nothing no penalty. This leads directly to two problems, one is win trading, if the gain is big enough no matter how many limits you try to put on it, people will find a way to win trade. Now to people who loose, one of two things will happen either they will get better or they will quit. Now since essentially 50% of players must loose, you need a constant influx of players or the game will have player count problems.
Winner nothing, looser nothing. This stops win trading and to a lesser extant loss frustration. But it leaves the whole system feeling rather empty. Not terrible for a game who’s focus is elsewhere.
Winner gains, looser also gains. This leads to lazy winning, or winning by loosing. But it does keep loosers from quitting cause they never get anything and takes much of the fear out of a system. This is good for new player friendly games.
Winner directly gains at loosers expense, This is the harshet possible system where pvp puts nothing into the system. This will suffer from extremly low target count unless its forced in some manner. People who dont do well in pvp will avouid this system. Only a few games have pulled this off and one of them was when there was no other game on the market and they took a take or leave it attitude its not like you have anywhere else to go.
well thats all for now
about 2 years ago
So true about the lost honeymoon. Developers are automatically on our shit list and must work very hard to get off it. All upcoming MMOs are assumed to be crap which is usually the safe bet.
Deyth Valkyrre
The Combine
about 2 years ago
I agree that tactical transparency makes the game easier, but I can see a fun class or skill pvp MMO without it. You might alienate some fringe pvpers, but it’s not like you can’t use your brain and think of more creative uses to make something almost as transparent as “this class looks like this, always”. Intelligence gathering comes to mind.
The whole contingency plan thing sounds out of left field to me. If I mistake one class/skill user for another, I change tactics to fit the new class/skill user. It’s usually that simple, depending on the situation. Also, once someone reveals their hand, they can’t really take that hand back. Everyone now knows you’re actually a sniper instead of a flame-throwing soldier. They have your name and they all saw you using the rifle, now it’s just a matter of telling everyone else who were too busy or too dumb to notice, which is really quite easy both in-game and metagame.
Everything else is pretty spot-on, though.
about 2 years ago
Look deeper. The question is not “Do players like PvP games?” Camelot, WoW arenas and PvP servers, Eve, Guild Wars, not to mention a few games you might have heard of like the various incarnations of Quake, Doom, Team Fortress, Counterstrike, Battlefield, Halo….
The question is “What kind of PvP experiences can an MMO deliver that non-service games cannot?”
–Dave
about 2 years ago
MMOs deliver persistence – shooters just reset after you’ve captured the flag or whatever.
For PvP to work in an MMO, it must impact the persistent world. That’s why Eve PvP feels more satisfying than DAoC PvP, which feels more satisfying than WoW PvP.
Duels, arenas, and “neutral zone” wars of the various MMOs aren’t really different than tacking a Counterstrike match onto the existing gameplay. It can be fun for a little while, and it might even give you something shiny as a reward, but it doesn’t really effect your metagame experience, and it’s always more awkward than the games that are straightforward shooters.
There are ways for PvP to have consequences for even those who opt out of it without making everyone go crying to the forums. In fact, if done right, it could even make everyone’s experience more entertaining.
about 2 years ago
FYI, this post is finally “done”. flame away!
about 2 years ago
“To put it another way, you noticed stability problems with Shadowbane because it was fun… if you hadn’t been enjoying your time, you wouldn’t have even noticed that it crashed except to say “oh good an excuse to leave right this instant.””
Yeah, people were having fun, but they noticed the goddamn sb.exe memory-crash errors as well as the popups telegraphing the fact that at least some of the mess was being strung together with Visual Basic. And then a whole shedload quit two months after ship and stayed away in droves from the expansion packs.
Sorry, Matt, that just made me scratch my head and make me wonder if you played Shadowbane. I agree in principle that “stability” might be secondary to “fun,” but stability is still pretty freaking important. And SB had some serious problems in both categories.
The real benefit to most competitive online games is that the worst that can happen to anyone is losing. Your character dies, and you start over, usually in the same state you started in, and even if your opponent doesn’t start over right away either, it’s usually not far behind. Not so in MMO’s. That in my mind will always be the fundamental challenge endemic to the genre.
about 2 years ago
One thing I have observed in my MMO PVP experience is that, based on forum discussions, there are exactly two speeds that characters can move at:
1. Ludicrous
2. Ineffectual
…with no happy medium.
Also known as the “Anyone who moves faster than me must be of some sexual orientation of which I do not approve” rule.
I don’t think there’s any way to win that one, either.
about 2 years ago
I think the most true statement is the last one. No matter what you do, you’re doing it wrong. On the other hand, to quote God in Futurama, “When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”
Also, “Panzerelf Warden” is the most amusing thing I’ve heard today.
about 2 years ago
I’m an ex-top guild wars player, finished in the top 10 routinely with 1 first place (gold cape) finish.
I disagree w/ some of your comments, particularly your “PvP needs grind”. Skill-based PvP is not driven by having a skill or character experience advantage. Grind that provides this is totally unacceptable. Grind for titles, valor and otherwise meaningless “glory” is fine.
If your pvp game is good, people will play it like “grind” anyways.
about 2 years ago
MMO PvP requires a group clan or guild, and they need to play regularly together, while Rock paper scissors can be entertaining it gets pretty stale, and you need to create a way for people to meet eachother
Guildwars while having very fun pvp through gvg really failed here, there was no ingame support at all for guilds forming, and after my guild disbanded my reason to play was gone
Fury also fails here, even more than guildwars does
Devs: Text chat does not cut it for forming groups
On another note: A Fury Dev made some comment about everybody at gameshows having fun with Fury, guess what dev, its because you had a balanced environment there, you don’t in live at all and your skillbalancer is incompetent, your itemsystem is complete trash for balance aswell, but you should already know this as its been said ever since alpha.
I guess I am angry and bitter
about 2 years ago
As a 10 year veteran of PvP I have to disagree with the class thing.
After a while of playing these games you gain a bit of experience. In skill based systems like UO or AC you more or less could figure out that the guy who is running at you full blast with a giant halberd in his hands isn’t there to heal his party (or he could be but that’s it’s own 80-90% unskilled rule above).
As someone else mentioned, in most modern games I can look at a class and instantly know what they are capable of. I know whether or not my class can take their class.
An example brought up was WOW’s talent system. There are many visual indications across many classes that more or less let you know what they are. You see a Paladin with a two hander and charging up Seal of Command it doesn’t take a genius to figure out they’re Retribution. Or the same Paladin sitting back healing others and not loosing much mana is probably going to be a Holy paladin. Much less the more obvious examples of the mighty Moon Chicken or the moving Shadow…
I’d also like to add that PvPers need a reason to fight. Consequences are a good step towards that goal, but the main purpose for consequences is to avoid the endless zerg that you experience in modern games. If you die a million times in WOW to a guy it means nothing. You can just keep coming right back over and over and over and over until it becomes a battle of willpower (or stupidity if you prefer) of who will back down first.
A real reason to fight, however, is prime. In AC1 you had fights over territory. In a game with a (near) endless grind, XP spots were a commodity that was fought over. Guilds would carve out territory out of the land and declare it theirs. In Shadowbane you had town sieging. Artificial reasons to fight (such as keeps in DAoC) for the “glory” of your faction (which as a FFA PvPer I’d be just as content to murder my faction as I am the enemy) fall short of that goal. There are no personal investments or “incentives” rather for a guild to do them.
On a last note, I have to completely laugh at the people still being mad 10 years later after being ganked by Despise. It is so amazingly true. Every beta test I’ve been in has the “carebear army” ready to try to remove any vestiges of any form of PvP out of any game citing what happened in UO without fail.
about 2 years ago
“After a while of playing these games you gain a bit of experience.”
Maybe you do, but most players will not. Maybe that means you win a lot more than most, but that’s not any fun for most. Fact: UO did end up having classes, they were just things like “tank mage” and “dex monkey” and changed periodically with the patches.
about 2 years ago
“PvP players are angry and bitter, and will hate you.”
I agree to an extent. It is in MMO front as it is everywhere that the selected few make the biggest noise. It is just the MMO designers job to find the valuable opinions.
While there is no formula for creating the perfect PvP game (or it would’ve been made already) It is more important to adjust the PvP to match the design of the game and the vision of the creators. This way the immersion of PvP remains and can be tuned without ruining it.
In my experience the level grind or skill grind whatever it might be in the game is a lot more tolerable when the option of PvP remains at all times. I love the battlegrounds in DAoC. Even if WoW basically offers the same framework for this, WoW PvP has never felt like PvP for me. First of all I dislike instanced PvP. There’s no feeling of continuity only grinding mentality (1000 more honor for new shiny cap…). I’m sad to see that more and more MMO designers choose this as the primary form of PvP in their games. Probably because it is the easiest to implement and balance.
If any MMO designers happen to read this I have only a few humble requests for you.
1) Do not let equipment take control over skill of player
Equipping for PvP should not take up more of the week than actually playing the PvP
This was a HUGE problem in the beginning of WoW.
2) Don’t let instanced PvP take control over continuous PvP areas
If the PvP is detached from the game world it will just be a minigame in a PvE game. Best example I can think of is WoW. PvP has absolutely no effect on the game world and world PvP is almost nonexistent since it doesn’t offer any rewards (lose-lose situation)
3) Do not let player skill take over character skill
What I mean here is that only give the player control to command the character they play not to control the character itself. This is a thin red line I know, but where I’d draw the line is having the character do the combat instead of letting the player do the combat. For example aiming shots/strikes.
4) Last but not the least. make it possible for smaller groups (to an extent) to beat larger groups if they have more skill. In DAoC this is achieved by numerous types of crowd control. I know everyone complained/still complain about CC in DAoC, but it is none the less the soul of the PvP there since it gives this chance.
Just remember, you cannot please everyone.
about 2 years ago
The big issue for me is what I call the “Blood of Heroes” idea: Fairness is very important.
I think a lot of the points made touch on this. At it’s core PvP is about competition and in the US at least fairness is pretty important. For example, the rules that dictate how a game is played are often much fewer than those rules designed to preserve competition by keeping the game fair. Consider the volumes of rules on valid equipment, who can play, who can referee, where the game will be played, etc. Next recognize that all of that very well could apply to a little league baseball game.
Now game developers have missed this entirely. A part of PvP play is finding the imbalances the desiger\dev let slip through and exploiting them. Maybe the idea has grown from pinball where any bump that doesn’t tilt is good play but in MMO PvP, if they implemented it then it is legal. And the devs have obliged by implementing some pretty absurd imbalances.
Worse devs are very slow to plug these holes or even admit they exist. Usually, by the time the bug is fixed it is being very widely exploited and many bemoan the nerf (because wanting fair play is secondary to wanting to be overpowered).
about 2 years ago
All of this PVP talk just makes me wish we’d see an Everquest Discord server again.
about 2 years ago
I think the main reason why Space games are so popular for PvP and why they work is because of The Ship.
The Ship fills the same place as The Sidekick – It’s a seperate character from the protagonist, but it enables them to Do stuff.
From a Gamey perspective it allows you to have instant “I know what that does” recognition, to be able to loose and take a significant loss (MY SHIP!) but still be you, because ships are chracters, but they are supporting characters, the ship is not you.
I think this would work in a Pirate game as well, for the same reason.
And I think if you combined it with abilities or skills tied to a captian + ship designed for specific role you could get quite a nice game going.
I.E. character with scouty/avoidy abilities piloting a heavy cruiser in order to do convoy raiding vs. the guy with lots of killy type powers in a smaller frigate to do the same thing. variation, same role, same effect, newbs can look and see OMG! CRuiser! or OMG! Frigate! and have a general sort of idea what each does (just like OMG! GUy in plate! or OMG! Guy with daggers in cloak and leather!) but being in the ship doesn’t lock you in.
Also, if you go with ‘powers’ or ‘skills’ or ‘abilities’ for the captian then you remove some of the Christmass Tree Effect (CTE) from the equiation, you reserve somet things which cannot be lost to PvP, and then clearly deliniate what CAN be lost.
But i 100% agree with “PvP should not be the focus of your entire game.” in that you can have the bestest most awesum systems in the world but unless there is a reason to have the collosol mega epic conflicts then..meh.
The way I see it you need something for the Lone Wolf or Guy and His Buddies to fight for, something for the mid-sized guys to fight for and something for The Playahs to do. In y our classic ‘pirate’ game that would be piracy and/pirate hunting/trading, then privatering and/or large scale piracy/raiding and then The Nation game (i.e. running the colonial powers, or at least part of them).
man…i totally miss what PotBS could have been before they went back to levels and instances and stuff.
anyway, yha, the ship thing.
about 2 years ago
Why is everyone associating “classes” with “rock, paper, scissors”. That is not the point of classes, roles, or archtypes. The point of defining a role for a player, instead of giving them a free-for-all skill tree, is to promote structure and strategy. Without structure, there is no strategy, without strategy there is no basis for anyone to even start talking about “player skill”.
I think Mr. Lum clearly pointed out what happens when the skill system is open ended in a PvP game: everyone plays a Tank Mage. Humans are notorious for discovering the best solution or copying those that have discovered it. An MMOG is no fun when everyone is the same, and as pointed out, FPS games tend to do death matches in a much better way.
Also, Lum points out that PvP fans normally hate classes. But there is one thing that PvP fans hate worse than that, randomness. Yet, here we have obvious PvP fans arguing that they want every fight to be a random encounter, because it promotes “skill”. I can’t see a PvP fan that cares about balance, being a fan of any sort of randomness.
about 2 years ago
As someone who feels naturally better than everyone else, I have to automatically assume that everyone in these comments sucks compared to me. Since they suck, that means so do their ideas on PvP. I saw some guy say classes aren’t bad, some guy (guild wars dude) say no grind plz sir, and of course everyone else that doesn’t matter. Anyways, my point is that they’re all wrong.
It’s people like me who are right. Sorry, that’s just the way it is.
The reason people like me PvP, and this goes for all ages, is simply because we’re better. We know we’re better. We know if we happen to die that we will usually come back to life, but we will also know what we should have done to not die, because there should ALWAYS be something you can do to not die. Most people who claim to be PvPers just like playing team sports. I liked playing soccer, because I could win for the team, and I usually did.
That’s why I’ve wasted so much time playing FPSes, I can win even if my team loses. I was a late arrival to UO and just played on free servers for the most part. I didn’t even have characters with GM skills (fuck grinding, unless I can exploit it!) but I would still kill the most feared people. I would pull some bullshit and ruin their day. Maybe I just bought every animal at the vendor and said all kill and lagged the dude out, maybe I Llama bombed his ass, maybe I found a FS wand right next to a paralyze wand. The point is, I ruined peoples days for fun.
That’s the point of PvPing. Making people quit, making people mad, making yourself feel better.
P.S. I love you Mr. Jennings.
about 2 years ago
Little problem with that.
I was part of the orginal page a GM every time you are pked campaign in UO. Thing is Pker’s tended to be young and it was not at all hard to get them to use foul language. Usually all it took was going out with nothing to loot.
Not only did we manage to tie up support for hours in early UO. We got ALOT of pker’s banned.
So to you this was acceptable pvp.
This is a major problem with pvp, if you let it control the game, either pvper or non pvper’s will drive the other out without fail.
about 2 years ago
Two problems with persistent PvP MMOGs.
1. Power curve. It’s bad enough that player skill is a curve for people to master. Toss on a power curve from items, and character skills, and you have a mountain that most people won’t bother to overcome.
2. The poster that made comment #58. That’s who’s going to be playing your game. That’s who you have to code around. That’s going to be, in the end, who causes a lot of people to stop playing your game.
about 2 years ago
There is a type of PVP no one has yet made a game for that I think would be successful.
-Balance//design classes for PVP then make a big full PVE world to fit the combat mechanics.
-Allow FFA PVP nearly everywhere but keep a record of it that everyone can see. Link this record to all characters on an account. The record could also be sorted by factions/guilds/etc.
-GIVE NO REWARDS FOR PVP except coin that hasnt been banked yet.
I think a world with open PVP but also with accountability would be a big success.
There are a lot of players who would love a chance to be a good guy or or would choose to be factional in an FFA world if it was an option.
One of the main reasons players never actually police PVP worlds them selves is that there is no way to keep track of who is what in all MMOs that dont have preset sides.
EVE is the only game that aproaches this but the jump gate focus of the game is a mechanic deigned mainly to help gankers.
about 2 years ago
I’ve thought a lot about desiging a PvP game, mostly because I sort of stumbled into the realization that designing a PvP game was, in fact, what I was doing.
I think there are only three truly distinct MMO PvP rules — as opposed to ‘how to make a game’ rules. Yeah, you need a combat system that isn’t stupid, and game balance, and some way for the 90% of players who are not The Best to enjoy your game right along with the 10% of players who are The Best. But I think all that stuff goes without saying.
My three rules are: PvP needs to matter to your game world; PvP needs to involve a significant degree of player skill; PvP needs to be inclusive, not exclusive.
If PvP doesn’t matter to the game world, then I might as well be playing TF2, which is great non-persistent PvP. The more it matters, the more involving it will be, even if the actual mechanics of the PvP are ridiculous, broken, or stupid. Players care a lot more about the consequences than the mechanics.
If PvP doesn’t involve player skill, then it’s just a matter of invested time or luck. If I can macro my way to being a great PvPer, then victories are hollow and meaningless; worse, defeats are frustrating and futile, because I’m not learning anything new from them (aside from ‘grind more noob’). WoW’s ‘resilience’ stat is a perfect example of this; while there’s certainly skill involved in WoW PvP, there’s also a stat that’s only available on PvP reward gear that, if you don’t have it, you simply lose PvP battles. What I learn from my arena team’s 2-8 record: get better gear, noobs.
If PvP isn’t inclusive, you’ve just spent a lot of design, code, and content time on a mechanic few people will care to use. New players need more than a reason to enter PvP areas of the game; they need some ability to be useful participants. Eve’s tackler swarms of frigates are a great example of inclusive PvP; DAoC’s insta-kill frontiers are a terrible example of inclusive PvP. When I started DAoC, the conventional wisdom was that you needed to be level 45 to go to the frontiers. By the time I was approaching 45, the goalposts had moved to 50. And then they moved to 50 + realm ranks. At any given moment, my PvP experience was ‘show up and die’ — and this experience was mandated by game mechanics that actually prevented me from hitting or damaging targets only a few levels higher than me. I never tire of telling the story of when a friend and I, at level 35, came across a paladin who had, by my estimation, double-digit hitpoints remaining. He’d just barely won a fight. My friend and I attacked him. Not only did we fail to kill him, but he trivially killed both of us and wandered off with more hp than when we arrived.
That’s basically the only PvP-specific rules I believe truly matter. If you create a PvP mechanic that matters to your persistent world, that players feel they can master, and that encourages new participants by giving them useful roles to play — you win.
about 2 years ago
theliel,
“man…i totally miss what PotBS could have been before they went back to levels and instances and stuff.”
I must assume, from this comment (and its context), that you’ve read the words ‘level’ and ‘instance’ somewhere in relation to my game and totally failed to parse what they meant, or investigate how they’re being used in any way.
about 2 years ago
I think one thing you missed should be “Players don’t mind dying once in a while, they mind dying every time they step outside of town.’
about 2 years ago
@ 63 -> I greatly over simplified gameplay elements for the sake of Hyperbole, but I do not think I was being incorrect. Changes were made to the game’s premise. Fairly Radical changes.
You and yours were full on up front about the changes, why it was done and what the New (at the time) plan was. Unlike just about any other game I have followed, Flying Lab has been 100% (ok, 98%) on top of informing the community about what they were offering, how design goals and reality met each other and hashed something out and how that affected the game.
That said, I was originally hoping for Eve with Pirates (though I really didn’t know it at the time, what with originally stumbling upon Flying Lab for the Cthulu game. oh…turns out I learned about PotBS before I learned of EVE. funny)
After the changes I was hoping for Pirates!; the MMO (which, as I oh-so-gently had to remind myself, all battles were instanced, so what the hell was I fussing about)
Yes I am sad that the game changed. I also understand that I and the 10 other guys who would’ve paid for the original game would not have allowed you and yours to eat.
I understand the underlying logic for all the changes, and I do agree with a host of them. I just disagree with some others and for some reason that’s enough for me to go “not my thing” and wander off.
I am in fact in a pretty niche market , and I understand that it will be quite some time before I see a game that works the way I would like it to (as the market has to grow enough and the barrier to development has to lower a goodly amount as well). And I will most likely be after something far different by that time.
about 2 years ago
What about EVE? its got an awesome PVP system, do what you want. PVP can technically happen anywhere but in systems (its a space games, theres solar systems) that has certain security statuses are patrolled by near invincible npcs, where as others only have protection in certain spots, or no spots at all.
Its got a decent reward system, the winner receives a ‘killmail’ with information that is used to brag with. Then there is the booty, unlike WOW when you blow up in EVE you lose whatever blew up, some of it goes with your ship, some is left with your remains.
As for skill development and ebay-ability, it is based on real-time. You turn a skill on and it will train for 15 or 20 minutes then finish, you dont have to kill anything if you don’t want to. However, to get the good stuff you have to train for days, weeks, months, some even for an entire year. That makes the game really relaxing for those who don’t want to, or dont generally have time to grind.
As for Ebaying characters, you can and it is done very often, but the usefullness of your character lies in how well the skills are trained, and how you fit your ship. A 2 week player has little or no chance to beat a 2 year player, but the difference between a year and a year and a half are simply player’s intelligence and knowledge of the modules (equipment). Sure you can google fitting (setups) for your ships and look them up on forums, but the truly amazing fittings are never recorded (for obvious reasons).
PVP, however big a part it may be to me, can not exist without the PVE nerds. Ships can’t blow up if they aren’t made by the miners and the builders, yet ships wont be needed if they are not blown up in PVP, its a perfect circle.
Although there is a subtle class system (which depends one which ships you can fly), it isnt static, anyone can train anything (as long as they have prereqs) so theres no limit to what you do.
If you can’t tell i’m an avid EVE-player, its my mmo. Its by no means perfect, but i feel it has great balance between those who like seeing things blow up, and those who like creating things.
-Matt (if you do play and I lock you, be prepared to lose your ship)
about 2 years ago
Just to be clear: This is not a supporting argument that classes are better for pvp. This IS a supporting argument that you failed to balance your skill system.
It is not impossible to have a skill system that is good all around. However, it comes with a heavy stigma with developers that it is far harder to balance than classes. Seeing as I haven’t found an MMO where classes were even close to balanced, I think skill systems will remain as a stupid backwards taboo among developers who will look for any excuse not to utilize one.
about 2 years ago
Bonedead is my new hero.
That is either one of the most amazing uses of sarcasm in recent history, or Bonedead is a textbook example of why normal people think PvP is for the incurably juvenile.
Either way…I’m in awe.
about 2 years ago
I was very unimpressed with EVE’s PvP system as a whole. As a semi-active member in the “greater” BOB vs. GoonSwarm conflict it was simply lack luster by comparison to most games. Mostly due to the system to system hop. Having to travel for 3 hours to get to enemy territory only to have everyone warp away the minute they see you on local chat got old really, really fast to speak nothing of the big game of “Who can crash the server first.”
As for #67 I completely agree.
Look at a system like UO. UO basically redid their system left and right forcing people to constantly either reroll (IE: Re-Macro) or completely change their system. One month it was halberds and spell casting. Next it’s Two-Handed Axes. Then it was Maces. Then it was Archery. Then it was Spellcasting and Wrestling with Archery. Then it was Dex Monkeys. Then it was Lumberjacks…
In a system like AC1, there really wasn’t much of that. You had mages, archers, and melee types from start to finish. While yes, certainly, they did fluctuate in power from time to time all the elements and crazy builds were there despite certain types being perceived as more powerful than others (IE: “Og”).
about 2 years ago
I look forward to Webzen’s PVP- oriented offerings in Huxley and APB….very different genres..but a PVP basis…to see if your rules can be broken
about 2 years ago
In response to #68: I’m not sure which it was. A bit of both I suppose.
I knew I was being funny (in some people’s eyes) when I was typing it, but there was a bit of seriousness in it. I’d like to think everyone deep down is incurably juvenile, it’s just that being an asshole (to assholes like me) is such a popular defense mechanism, most of them don’t even know it.
What I don’t get about PvP and the whole carebear/pker fight is, obviously, on the side of the carebears. One guy up top said something about dying once in a while is okay but every time you leave town is too much. I don’t get it. I’ve had to deal with dying every time I left town a lot, but that’s the thing, I dealt with it. I didn’t let it discourage me.
I was trying to explain pkers to my girlfriend yesterday and what I came up with is that everyone starts out a carebear. Even if they claim to be a pker. I remember losing a whole lot throughout my gaming career, but I didn’t run home and cry to momma. I wanted to kick that guy’s fucking ass.
I can remember times when I would just run out to the same PKs and die, over and over and over again. They would eventually leave or let me pass, they knew I wasn’t a threat (at the moment), and then I’d go kill a few mobs and get some loot. Sell the loot, buy some explosion potions, and then go attack the assholes who no longer saw me as worth killing.
I think I’ve made my point but in case I’m too random a motherfucker for people to understand, I’ll try and recap. Carebears only want to be heroes and if they die then the game is too hard. Wow, you really can’t say it without seeming like you wanna fight. Just think of Mortal Kombat. It’s a game, you fight people in it, and if you suck then you lose. If you lose you don’t quit, you want to beat your friend or your brother so they’ll stop talking shit. I don’t know, maybe PKers are just people who grew up with competition and brothers.
Message to the carebears who get discouraged by losing in pvp: don’t quit, get mad, learn to play.
Still <3 Mr. Jennings, sorry for using your comments as my own personal message board.
about 2 years ago
I probably qualify as a carebear, because I don’t like open PvP – like, at all. If I’m doing something else – PvE, or crafting, or whatever – I don’t want someone to come along and change the rules of the game on me. When I want to pwn noobs, I don’t want some idiot AI critter stumbling in to my carefully-laid ambush. I compartmentalize, that’s all, and games that don’t let me compartmentalize aren’t games I play.
about 2 years ago
@66 Unpro
As much as I enjoy Eve, the bar of entry is too much to draw in many hardcore PVPers. Due to this it will always be a niche game. Entering a PVP game at a permanent disadvantage isn’t enjoyable. Just to catch up to the average player involves 7 months; you can be PVPing in any other game and caught up in way under that amount of time. Eve is a great game, but being crippled because you found out about it years later then other people is not enjoyable.
Eve is the shining example of a grind, but instead of playtime you just grind out IRL time and in-game cash.
It is kind of sad really, because many of the other aspect of PVP are quite balanced and enjoyable, and they have a team that actually cares about and caters to the PVP crowd.
about 2 years ago
Great comments!
There were a couple mentions of the “tank-mage” syndrome on skill-based systems. This can be pretty easily solved by a dynamic adjustment to the effectiveness of a skill. Meaning: If every player in the world takes up, say, swords then the general offense/defense of the ability is weakened. So the one guy with skills in axes rules the battleground. The idea is that if enough people are using a skill, then the general populace knows how to defend against it better. Yet the skill that is rarely ever used, well, that is going to take any warrior by a bit of surprise.
A system like this could be taken further where skills are adjusted by geographical location. Also, armor types and their defense could be adjusted by location as well. Thus emulating the idea that a visiting samurai warrior in england might have a slight better defense as none of the brits are currently schooled in the common weaknesses of the armor.
Digressing to another topic, in UO you lost your stuff – which ALWAYS sucked. Yet at the same time it was all reasonably replaceable. In fact, when housing came around I helped a player (who was a 62 year old lady) set up a “store” where she basically just gave away anything someone might need and all the supplies were stocked by donations. It became a place where players commonly came after jumped at the crossroads to get some replacement equipment. Players made the system work for them – and the store became an instant hit as a fun place to meet people and it encouraged lots of natural role-play, something lacking from modern MMOs.
For character vs. character PvP the biggest thing is to allow the players who do get ganked the feeling of justice, in my opinion. Something lacking in just about every game. Bounties are one way. Perhaps haunting your attacker as a ghost could be fun. It is a path worth examining.
Finally, one aspect of PvP that is completely overlooked is the ability to allow players to be the monsters in the PvE land. I talked to a few people years ago at GDC about this and we found a number of exploits, but really most are easily solved. Explaining how it would all work is a bit outside of this thread, but if you spend a while thinking about it, the idea of players being monsters offers: Interesting PvP combat, the exhilaration that the upcoming encounter might not be something you expect, and a bit of relief of the grind when those orcs you have been taking out so easily suddenly become an intelligent opponent.
about 2 years ago
“Then it was Spellcasting and Wrestling with Archery.”
I was on the Wrestling with Archery team in high school. You have no idea how hard it is to draw a bow and hit a target at 90 meters while pinned to the mat.
about 2 years ago
“the exhilaration that the upcoming encounter might not be something you expect, ”
That is exactly what I DON’T like about open PvP – and what a lot of players don’t like about it. I hate surprises.
about 2 years ago
“You have no idea how hard it is to draw a bow and hit a target at 90 meters while pinned to the mat.”
That’s why you have to use it in conjunction with spellcasting; magic solves all sorts of problems
about 2 years ago
People also play Tank Mages because they are fun, or because being kited in melee sucks in X game (where X is just about every game that’s not WoW) or because if you don’t wear plate or have some kind of magical protection you die too fast.
Tank Mage-itis is more of a symptom of other problems than a cause. WoW has a Tank Mage, the Elemental Shaman, and not everyone plays it for PvP, though it is fairly popular. People played them in UO because movement in melee combat was too laggy, and because you could die in two hits if you weren’t heavily tanked.
about 2 years ago
If u like pvp play fury its bloody godly.
about 2 years ago
“What about EVE….”
EVE is almost awesome – except…….
1 its boring 99% of the time.
2 99% of the action is ambushes(which dont surprise anyone) at zone points.
You dont have to fight non-stop to have fun PVP but you need variety and and you cant have zone points be the focus of your game.
about 2 years ago
This article made me smile and cry at the same time.
Thank you.
about 2 years ago
PvP needs motivation, it needs rewards. Getting these right seems to be a major problem. Its most obvious in pvp servers for pve games, like EQ2 or Vanguard pvp – not enough reward for doing pvp, so why bother at all. Why bother playing …
On the other hand, it seems you can go to far – WoW has such nice but hard to get pvp rewards that it turns the game into a repetetive grind.
And you must be carefull to reward the right things – this is where DAoC went wrong. You get realm points, money and xp for killing people. So thats what people do, they grind realm points – those pesky relics, keeps and towers just get in the way of farming each other. Eventually what was a great inclusive RvR game was turned into an elitist 8 vs 8 circlejerk. You actually get bitched at for assisting another groups of your realm in the frontiers ! I think this could have been prevented by rewarding the acual war goals more then personal kills, allthough I bet players would have eventually ruined it by setting up a rotation where they farm each others keeps peacefully.
about 2 years ago
In response to #82 Monika T’Sam:
I think a bigger problem for DAoC was the clustering. Having level 50s on all 3 sides of the same “server”(cluster) and being able to switch and not having realm pride, that really hurt the game.
about 2 years ago
Blizzard has done a fine job of opening up the market and bringing a whole new crowd of folks that dont know what UO or AC or even EQ is. Just like you can characterize every member’s expectations of today”s non-WOW crowd by the game that broke their cherry these WOW folks will be the biggest proponets of stable launches with endless PVE in the years to come.
It’s become us and them , further anything that’s been designed for us that want PVP does lousy in comparison. That lousyness reasonably should shrink the market of investors willing to back the next great PVP game hope.
I think it’s done , the best games in our genre have already been made.. the future MMO’s will be PVE with a PVP afterthought. By the time the next one comes we’ll all have arthritis in our hands from the abuse we’ve put them thru.
Lum thanks for being our voice with all the great articles over all these years.
about 2 years ago
UO was ruined
AO launch was bad and ruined it for some people, thus ruining it for a lot of people.
SB was ruined by problems from the developer side.
Planetside was ruined by new addon mechs/bfr:s (was so obvious, but they still made the patch, idiot devs(sony l2dev).
EQs … game that only fits for NA players. … thus i dont have to say more. AND no you dont get a cookie with your game, try /pizza instead.
DAoC , great game, but atlantis ruined the game and HC old school realms/servers rule again. Thus you made those servers like 5 years too late.
WoW, good game to use your spare time with friends, PvE and PvP(arena) is ok but still i feel like they could of made so much more with the resources they have.
Warhammer online , sadly a WoW clone.
Conan , hoping for a good game with a good release (promising).
about 2 years ago
AND if you do a PvE and PvP game in one game, put seperate talent trees to PvE and PvP.
about 2 years ago
@ianB
Please do not comment on EVE’s skill system. Your comment shows that you have no clue how the game works.
1. New people are very useful in PvP.
2. Older players do not have a skill advantage. New players can catch up on depth. They cannot catch up on breadth. Most skills can be maxed out in less than 30 days. Maxing out medium projectile for example only takes x number of months. At which point the newb is exactly as good with them as the 4 year player. The advantage the 4 year player has is that they’ve also train medium hybrids and so they can also use those. However those medium hybrid skills in no way help when using medium projectile. So age grants breadth but not a significant amount of depth.
about 2 years ago
There will never be a “perfect” pvp game, and most of the complaining is just a result of unrealistic expectations clashing with reality. I used to play the PvP games heavily, but now I’d rather just play a good ol’ shoot the other guy in the face before he shoots you in the face FPS game.
Every game I’ve played that has pvp it boils down to:
1) Everyone has to find out “the” pvp class, and play that one.
2) Everyone has to find out every single exploit, and exploit them to no end.
3) Everyone has to have every top item in the game for pvp, if they don’t they probably will never even attempt to pvp until they get it.
Really, it’s just plain kind of sad. I just like to kill stuff, fuck all the nonsense. If the other guy wins because he is “the” pvp class with “the” top gear and using “all the” exploits, well grats! The sad part is when they believe this equates to having any clue what they’re actually doing in the game, which is an entirely different story.
about 2 years ago
Can we please get over the nonsense of trying to compare PvP from games like Planetside and WW2OL to games like EQ, WoW, UO etc?
PS and ww2OL failed because of implementation not because of design. They ARE PVP, player skill games. WoW, EQ etc. are PVE, grind based games. Frankly you will probably NEVER have successful PvP in games like WoW and EQ unless you can completely seperate the PvE and PvP players from each other.
Comparing the two types of game is simply apples to oranges. Really the best comparison for ww2ol is a really big, complicated, persistant version of Counter-Strike. There is simply no other purpose than to kill the other team, or help your teammates do that better. That’s it. When there is no grey area PvP works.
However the wannabe MMOLG’s – EQ, WoW etc. are really a single player expierence you share with other people on your server…with a dash of co-op thrown in for those who like that. You don’t really require other people to play the game, because the bulk of people playing these games are PvEr’s which is really just single-player gaming in a social environment.
about 2 years ago
UO:
Failed as a PVP game because the fastest way to make money was to kill other players, and money was needed to buy spell components, arrows, etc. Needing to farm players killed UO pvp period.
AC1:
Good pvp system with a large world. Failed to catch on with the PVP crowd due to levels, gear, and limited respawn location issues.
EQ:
Had fun on Sullon Zek, but levels meant too much.
DAOC:
Fun but levels meant too much, keeps were taken too easily, and relics really didn’t mean much. No matter what you did, you really didn’t impact the world.
Shadowbane:
PVP was fun, but leveling and farming gold was boring as hell. Ultimately though taking 1-2 months to build your city only to have it destroyed by a zerg in 1 day killed it by driving off small-medium sized guilds.
SWG:
PVP was ok when it first came out, but the downtime is what killed it for me.
WoW:
Your PVP ability was directly related to your level and your gear. If levels were equal, then gear usually determined the victor. Getting gear is a massive grind, no thanks.
CoV/CoH:
PVP is very fun, but the leveling to get there is absolutely horrible.
GW:
Had a good community that was very competitive when all PVPr’s had access to all skills/gear. Community died a slow death when people were forced to PVE to the endgame to get the stuff they needed to PVP. Lesson learned, GW2 will separate the PVP and PVE games and will be a smashing success.
Fury:
Prior to the Dec 14th patch PVP was fast paced and relatively balanced. Their mistake was not listening to their community, releasing the game too early without enough content, releasing with 0 community tools/ladders, etc, and their skill balancer not playing their own game.
Now if you want to make a good PVP based game, it requires the following:
1.
Low barrier to entry, and being easy to pickup and put down when needed without feeling like you are obligated to play daily.
I would go with a skill/skillpoint system rather than levels, and let people invest in the skills they want. I would base advancement off the # of player kills.
2.
Voice chat capability
3.
Guild/Clan support
—In game recruitment ability
—An in game leader board
—Basic clan management tools
—Optional stuff (custom titles, etc)
4.
Diverse PVP Content
Arena Type PVP:
—Beginner level tournaments
—Intermediate level tournaments
—Advanced level tournaments
—Observer mode
GvsG Mode:
—Allow guilds to custom design their own guild halls and fight against other guilds. Lower ranked guilds fight in their guild halls against higher ranked guilds.
World/Realm PVP:
—1 or more big zones with some objectives that make the battle more than a zerg vs zerg.
—World wide recognition
—Observer mode
5. Gamewide recognition
Guilds and Individuals
—PVP titles based off K:D Ratio
—PVP titles based on W-L Records
—PVP titles based on global rankings
—Web based PVP ladder/ranking site
6. Gear
I would have item decay
I would not give gear more than a 5% boost to the overall power of a character, but I would have lots of cool looking skins for different types of gear.
I would make all gear craftable with basic gear available on NPC vendors for gold, and advanced gear available via NPC vendors using gold and salvage rewards at the end of each PVP match.
7. PVE – Optional
Add in a PVE story arch for people to play if they want, and their rewards would be gold/salvage that they could use to make new gear.
People don’t understand how close Guild Wars came to being a runaway PVP hit. They had a good formula with a decent PVE game, and they launched with a huge PVP following from the FPS/MMORPG genres. They then lost that community by forcing you to have to play each new character to the end game in order to prepare it for PVP. That was their basic mistake.
The other mistake they made was not having more types of rankings, and organized play at a 4v4 and 1v1 level. Some of that they added in much later, but by then they had lost most of their PVP audience.
So if I were making a PVP game, I would follow the Guild Wars model with the changes I mentioned above. The MMORPG PVE grind model with PVP as an afterthought is a dinosaur, and CORPG’s like GW that support both PVP and PVE well could easily capture the market by catering to both Hardcore and Casual gamers.
about 2 years ago
Wow…some really good comments…especially liked Bonedead and Brian! #74 post
I’ll start off I’m a carebear by nature…I tend to play PvE games over PvP…though I deep down want a good PvP game…They have all come up lacking in one department or another…
Most things that make a good PvE game…make PvP horrendous…
For PvP to work you need world ownership. There needs to be a hook for you to love your world and to defend it, otherwise it’s just a minigame…
-Classes, Levels, and Items…yeah work in PvE…sucks in PvP…it becomes a race to max level and best gear…where in PvE you just need to level as fast as your friends…
-in PvE everyone is a hero…in PvP some are just ****s….
-Crowd Control sucks in PvP…
-There is no way for the community to police the world, a point Brian makes “For character vs. character PvP the biggest thing is to allow the players who do get ganked the feeling of justice, in my opinion. Something lacking in just about every game. Bounties are one way. Perhaps haunting your attacker as a ghost could be fun. It is a path worth examining.” There is no real consequence to the person who just wants to be a ****head…Bounties are not enough…You need some type of character lockout. Maybe a combination of Bounty and Lockout…the more Bounties on your head…the longer the lockout…
Waiting for that PvP game that just grabs me
about 2 years ago
At first I didnt really agree with some key points in the article but after more reflection I pretty much agree with all of it. I updated my blog with my thoughts on this article. To sum up my blog entry, I had a problem with “PVPers need Classes” because of course- we don’t have any in many FPS games (like Unreal Tournament). But I get what you were saying here- that our current role should be clearly visible. Which can be conveyed via various visual/audio cues.
about 2 years ago
As former Avid player of Shadowbane, and no other mmorpg, as well as a PvPer at heart, I have to say that Shadowbane had it right to a point. An entire world where you could find PvP anywhere you went after you moved off of Nub Isle. Unfortunately at launch it was way to pve centered. To reach the end game for the individual player you needed to spend way to much time pveing for levels and gold to the point of having to farm to equip yourself even after reaching the level cap.
City seiging is was and is a great tool for instanced pvp unfortunately you run into the pve grind again as the cost to build a city is enormous as well as the cost of sieging a city.
Having clearly defined classes worked well in Sb as it allowed people to be able to set priorities in pvp. Even though the game has had over its tenure many FoTM toons there was always a balance in player skill, for example from personal experience having played most of my time in sb as a fury class caster which was over and underpowered through my life span int he game my skill (player skill that is) level allowed me to be competitive with whatever the overpowered class was at the time.
In my humble opinion the biggest thing that hurt Shadowbane was stability. once you got more then say 70 people in one spot at the same time the game would lag up horribly. This would negatively effect the entire server not just those involved in the battle. So the carebears were unhappy and the pvpers were unhappy.
A successful pvp game will cater not only t the hard core pvper but also to the pvp lite player, the person who enjoys pvp but also likes a certain amount of pve.
about 2 years ago
Granted this was obviously written by a gamer, please don’t compare a MMOFPS (Planetside, WW2 Online, etc.) to a MMORPG (Shadowbane, Eve Online, etc.). They have two different approaches to an internet game and last I checked, FPS and RPG were different genres.
The main advantage I enjoy about a PvP oriented game (no not an ActionRPG, aka Guild Wars and Fury), is the ability to go PvE when you want and not actually need to raid the boss to death. You feel much more casual and adventurous knowing that since PvE is not the big part of the game and that you CAN go take on that boss on your own and get some cool gear.
I have a feeling that today would be different if Shadowbane was not released with technical issues. Seeing as how MMORPGS are much, much more mainstream now; we won’t be seeing PvP/Sandbox oriented ones anytime soon (look at SWG turned to). Atleast, until the mainstream gains more experience and becomes bored of the tedious PvEing, and actually see the advantage of an unpredictable target.
Then again, the population is lazy, which is why the non-lazy are a niche in the market. Look at FPSs, they are going back and forth, between their complexity its hilarious. I feel like the newest Halo and Call of Duty games have not added anything more to the FPS genre than Quake or UT99 did. The RTS genre are the only ones actually gaining any new innovations as of late, maybe it’s because most likely a more intelligent person (sorry to generalize here) would play an RTS, whereas an A.D.D child would go play a FPS like Call of Duty, and nothing tactical as of RS6, GR, or even Battlefield.
Ahhh… these video game genres really need to shape up.
about 2 years ago
Isldur – “If PvP doesn’t matter to the game world, then I might as well be playing TF2, which is great non-persistent PvP. ”
^^^^^^^
I would call that The Golden Rule of MMO PVP. Without the game adhering to the Golden Rule, it is just a PvE game.
DAOC largely obeyed the Golden Rule – when a relic was threatened, people would leave raids at times to come to the realms defense. And early evenings weren’t as much about prime raiding time as taking a keep or two and opening ports to the other realms home frontier territories.
about 2 years ago
pretty sure DAOC is still the best implemetation of PVP and RVR that i have ever seen in any game.
nothing else even comes close
about 1 year ago
Scott Rigby’s talk left me wondering how you can do PvP without continually defeating 50% of people’s intrinsic needs.
Or reminded me that I wonder that.
Larry Melon pointed out WW2OL’s fundamental flaw – they (not guilty!) shipped shit in a box. Granted, they were furthered hammered by a major breach of contract by their ISP the first 3 days and had to relocate their equipment to a different coloc and ISP which tied up people and cash resources that could otherwise have been spent on developing the game – but still the day 1 game was buggy and horribly hampered by a simulation-centric focus vs a gameplay focus.
So people tend to not want to use it as any kind of example.
But it has been around for 7 years, defying the traditional MMO subscription curve. It’s rife with lessons in How Not To Develop/Run an MMO, like any of its competitors – but: 7 continuous years and a pending Chinese franchise; many former WWIIOL devs are in significant positions at other MMOs. It all adds up to the fact that the concept and product, and those of us working on the product today, clearly have /something/ of value to say particularly for anyone wanting to understand PvP.
Take all those factors and throw them at another game and tell me it would produce 7 years of stable income? Heck, take just day 1-3 with the ISP providing 10Mb instead of the 10Gb they were billing for at launch, followed by 3 years fighting a $3M legal battle with them and apply that to /most/ 2000-2004 MMO launches and what would happen?
Those of us who joined the team and the things the team learned (much of which the industry as a whole has /also/ learned in those /same/ 7 years) have managed to increase revenues and profitability little by little. The fact we haven’t turned it into a success, or a mini-wow or major growth comes largely comes down to the launch and the resulting stigma it tarred the product with.
I honestly believe that WW2OL could pull off some kind of mini-eve or micro-eve style recovery if the imminent China franchise takes off and brings in even a relatively small surplus: there are a hell of a lot of licensable middleware options that my predecessors simply didn’t have access to that would allow us to reduce costs and better expose the PvP element that has actually been the life-support of the project and team. That’s what has kept me on the team for these last 5 years.
I’m seriously considering asking Scott and Damion to consider doing a “Why the f**k is WWIIOL not dead already?” session with me next year as a platform for getting across the message “hey, PvP really has some staying power”. It’s just not a well enough explored domain and having worked for part of the problem I’d love to try and be part of the solution encouraging MMO devs and suites to rethink the very negative spin we (WWIIOL) helped give PvP…
Oh and Hi Copper
(For Da Beerz?)
about 1 year ago
First, I want to apologize for bumping an old post, and I hope that this is seen.
Isildur had a very good observation:
Fundamentally, you don’t PvP because the enemy P is the goal. You want something in the enemy territory — some sort of E (environment) in there that you want. Then the PvP comes because the enemy P are defending their E from you.
Pirates of the Burning Sea has just this set up — you have enemy controlled ports that you want to take over. You are fundamentally attacking the ports, or attacking the enemy players to defend your ports. And the ports aren’t just “pixels on the map” — controlling ports gives your side resources and the advantage in the economic game. The realization that you could let it go “way out of balance”, until one side dominates the map, was a stroke of genius — there was no need to put in-game stuff to balance the sides or stop a run-away. Instead, let the run-away happen, and then let “off-screen politicians” rebalance the world and start the fight again.
Now, granted, I’m horribly simplifying. I’m also way out of date — I followed the forums during beta, but once the game went live, you had to have an account to participate. (Hi there, this is “BehindCurtain”, if I remember my forum name correctly from way over there).
But this is the key fundamental point. If your goal in PvP is just to take out enemy P for no reason, it’s pointless, and it’s “My mob’s bigger than your mob”. You don’t engage in a 50/50 PvP battle if you can help it — you go for battles where you have the advantage.
Take a good look at almost every board war game, from Titan to SPI WW2 games. Heck, look at Steve Jackson’s UltraCorps (online wargame). You always want to fight with such overwhelming forces that you don’t get significantly hurt, and can keep on charging.
That means, fundamentally, that initiating a PvP battle needs to be the choice of the defense, not the attacker; there has to be some sort of home-field advantage; and the attacker ultimately doesn’t want to get into PvP.
If the attacker wants to get into PvP, then you’re back to “I want the bigger force, I want to steamroll you, and go past you to the real prize”. That’s the fail — your goal is the ports, the cities, the NPC leader, etc.
If the attacker can succeed as a really weak noob, then the game lacks believability — it needs a strong attacker to have a chance. That means that to stop the strong attacker, you either need for the defense to have strong people, or you need some sort of home-field advantage. If you don’t have the “home field advantage”, then the slightest gain for one side turns into a run-away; with the “home field advantage”, there’s a way for the map to go back-and-forth for a while before it falls over.
Now, there is one other point of PvP that I didn’t see mentioned. PvE fountains resources from the mobs you kill; PvP either has no resources fountained, or destroys resources, in almost every game I’ve seen. (No, I don’t consider WoW PvP gear to be fountaining.). If you have a game with a lot of PvP, you have to have a way for the PvP to generate resources. Now figure out how to do that without being gameable.
The player-skill comment is a big issue. Should someone with a relatively beginning character and a lot of player skill be able to take out a high-end character with average player skill? Is this an online role-playing game, where you start by playing a weak, beginning toon, and later on are playing a mean, lean, clobbering machine? Or is this an online roll playing game, where skill plus RNG is the only factor, and it doesn’t matter if your toon is supposed to be a massively destructive force of nature if you’re a slow, bumbling player with no “twitch-factor” response in your fingers?
Now consider that you might be playing on much slower equipment, that doesn’t have hardware acceleration for a lot of stuff. You know, like a level 10 druid trying to go into Moonglade only to find yourself killed before your screen even gets off the “Loading …” page.
If player skill really makes the difference, then how much does better computer equipment make player skill meaningless?
If player skill is supposed to be the difference, then consider the other things that make a difference:
0. Some classes are designed to do high DPS. If this dominates the PvP, then no other class need bother to apply.
1. Sometimes a “first-strike” attack gives you so much advantage that you win. Then it’s back to whoever has the best twitch and equipment.
2. Players tend to have abilities that monsters/npc’s don’t have. In some games, it’s a very rapid attack. Think rapid-fire bows, or moonstrike spam. If your game doesn’t keep players versus mob attacks under control, then it probably doesn’t keep player versus player attacks under control either. This leads to PvP attacks being very fast, very short, and your game becomes “Ambush and assassinate”. Again, it’s twitch. There’s no time to think, no time to plan, no time to react — so you, the player, have to be on edge constantly. Heck, if all the mobs in the area have to get close to attack me, and won’t fight or fire from a distance, then a design that lets other players fire from long distance means that I have to constantly be worried about long-distance attacks from nowhere.
That’s not fun. I don’t want to play where I’m constantly worried about being ambushed by someone that I can’t see. I don’t mind a game where I can get into a fair fight where I have a chance to defend myself, but again, the attacker doesn’t want to get me into a fair fight.
So, you either need incentives so that the attackers want to get into a fair fight with other P’s, and you need the fights to NOT be twitch fests, or you want incentives so that the attackers want to avoid the P’s and go after the E’s, and defending P’s want to stop the attacking P’s from taking the E’s.
If you want a good PvP fight game, then being attacked by an E or attacked by a P should not be different. PotBS and Puzzle Pirates both have this — the enemy ship has to engage your ship, and has the same fighting ability (the ship’s firing rate, cannons, etc) whether it’s a player or NPC. Heck, there’s no real “DPS” difference, unless your player skill (YPP) or toon ability (PotBS) lets you reload guns faster.
about 1 year ago
QFT.
AC1 had classes, too:
Item/Life Mage with Sword/Bow/Dagger/Unarmed/Axe/Mace/Spear
Item/Life Mage with War Magic
Item/Life Mage with Creature Magic (IIRC, the infamous “Og spec”)
Gimp (any character missing Item Magic, Life Magic, or both)
I’m willing to bet even Darkfall will end up with “classes” somehow: combinations of skills that provide some sort of synergy and little to no “fluff” skills in order to maximize the efficiency of the skill-up grind.