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The Game Within The Game Within The Game
Shacknews gets a typically weird interview with The Mitanni, the Markus Wolf of Eve’s Goonswarm. It also serves as a good overview of Eve’s chaotic metagame to the outside observer.
Though The Mittani may miss out on the fun of participating in a fleet action, quietly shuffling pieces across the starlit board brings its own reward. “If you’re even mildly sadistic, or at least enjoy seeing the lamentations of people you dislike, this job is amazing fun,” he explains while showing me a copy of Lotka Volterra’s private forums, pointing out a few particularly amusing deceptions. He refers to his “job” as a “meta-game,” a game-within-a-game. Like the Men in Black, he is above the system–beyond the system. Anonymity is his name; the GoonSwarm battle cry of “fofofo” his native tongue.
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about 3 years ago
hmm, interesting. If I didn’t have a life already, Eve would definitely be a game I would play…
about 3 years ago
Great article, and indicative of what I wish I’d been able to get into with EVE.
about 3 years ago
fofofo
I am a little surprised that Mittens didn’t take the opportunity to break out the “I told you so”s though, what with the totally-unrelated-to-the-repeated-corruption-issues-honest! decision CCP made re: their volunteer-based departments.
about 3 years ago
Articles like these make EVE sound really fun. It probably is for people who have been playing long enough.
I wish their skill system was less retarded.
about 3 years ago
I’m amused at how many articles like this, arguing “this game is just as serious as real life!” end with “As for the subject of our story, he quit playing altogether.”
about 3 years ago
I’m amused at how many articles claiming “this game is just as serious as real life!” end with “As for John, he quit playing altogether.”
about 3 years ago
GoonFleet Intel are not a standing joke, but they come very close to it. Yes, I was in the past involved with an Eve intel network. Multiple networks. Quite simply, if you’re good, you don’t NEED to advertise. And some pretty small corps have excellent networks.
Also, while Remedial is not an especially nice example of Humanity, the Goonfleet response was as usual way, way OTT.
about 3 years ago
Rule of online war is always respond over the top. As far over it as you can go in fact. Its the only thing that can sometimes pierce the security blanket of being hidden away behind a computer in ones own home. We used to do some crazy OTT things back in the mud days during various pvp wars. Playing nice never pays, instead destroying relationships, framing people for stuff, ruining reps … those things have payoff.
about 3 years ago
I think that says a lot about how some gamers view real life.
about 3 years ago
Trouble is, the gamers that think that way form a majority of the most “successful” ones.
about 3 years ago
And, that is why game designers with a vision of pvp utopia often find it dissolves at the addition of actual players. Any game design that rewards evil exclusively winds up as unpleasant to play as one would expect for everyone who isn’t of the ilk.
Any person who sees nothing enjoyable in the lamentations of people they have no reason to dislike – people who are fellow players of the same game – would probably find such a ‘game’ anything but ‘amazing fun.’
And anyone who finds destroying relationships and framing people for stuff enjoyable or acceptable is outright evil, and I’d never want to play a game that had any sizable proportion of payoff for either activity.
about 3 years ago
I especially like the way the server glitch was breezed over.
“The game can’t support something that was promised years ago, but OMG DRAMA!”
about 3 years ago
Nothing to do with gamers viewing real life, as much as the mindset somewhat ruleless pvp allows for. Skirt the rules as much as possible, abuse grey areas, and try to win. Seems like a corperate mentality. If you don’t play to win at any cost, you probably lose to those that do.
Personally, it’s why I never got into these games on an alliance level, but I think on a mechanics side EvE’s pretty interesting, it’s pre expansion (t2, etc) economy was amazing until people figured out insurance fraud. I just can’t get MEAN enough to really succeed in a game like that.
about 3 years ago
Yes, it does.
To sacrifice your real life social connections and how people see you, all for an advantage in a video game, says that you gave up on real life in some way. Perhaps they’re depressed or ignorant, or maybe mom and dad didn’t give them enough hugs. Whatever the reason, no one who is reasonably happy with life would ever let a video game interfere with their life, especially to the extent eve allows.
about 3 years ago
Daaaaaaaaaaaamn, some people need to play more Diplomacy (best.boardgame.ever.)
about 3 years ago
“To sacrifice your real life social connections and how people see you, all for an advantage in a video game, says that you gave up on real life in some way.”
what
about 3 years ago
And that’s why Xaldin, I maintain the only reasonable response to getting an organisation of goons in your online game is to ban them all. Your very words show why.
Anyway, I’d point out that there are alternatives to the “house of snakes” approach to playing Eve. There are plenty of small, tight-knit PvP corps who are extremely cooperative internally.
about 3 years ago
“To sacrifice your real life social connections and how people see you, all for an advantage in a video game, says that you gave up on real life in some way. ”
To sacrifice your real life social connections and how people see you, all for an advantage at work, however, is the pinnacle of success.
Shows how some people can’t abstract enough to see it’s a common personality trait (fuck people, yay me) that manifests itself in different ways. Nothing to do with GAMERS per se, a lot to do with a basic ideals system.
Your comments are coming across that this is either something caused by gaming or exposed by gaming, when it seems to me that it’s exposed by nearly every aspect of people’s lives.
about 3 years ago
Maybe it’s me, but the guy’s description of the game made Eve sound hellishly boring. I tried the game in open beta for a week, spent a lot of time mining and stuggling to squeeze some fun out of the thing, without success.
Black Ops – basically fly around in stealth mode for two hours, then when people think you’re gone, you pop out of stealth for a minute then keep flying around. Um, wow, exciting gameplay? He made it sound so innovative, but it’s no different than a stealther in DAOC walking around and waving to people.
about 3 years ago
You can always choose to pick a job that doesn’t interfere with your life like that. I can’t deny that the benefits would be great for your pocketbook, but there are plenty of people who would rather keep their friends and family intact over any increase in monetary gain, people who are likely happy with life.
At least there’s money to gain in the workforce. At least there’s security or justice to gain in war. These things arguably justify a lack of care for life, but you always have the choice not to do it.
What do video games have? Just an illusion. It’s bits of light on a monitor. It’s far more of an apathetic move to fuck over your life for a game than it is for any other issues I can think of. Only a person really not happy with life would find happiness in someting like that, moreso than someone going for monetary gain or the like.
This is something I believe is different and worse than the generic personality trait you think it is.
about 3 years ago
So you’re saying nobody should play any games or take part in any other sorts of recreational activity, then?
about 3 years ago
There are indeed plenty of people willing to lie and destroy reputations in real life for their own pleasure, or revenge over a perceived slight (as you know hell hath no fury…). I have met some people like that.
I’m sure if they played games, they’d be the same way in the game.
about 3 years ago
And this is why the cries of the DF, AoC etc faithful are largely falling on deaf ears. All MMOs are already skill based, twitch gaming skills are simply at the bottom of a hierarchy of skills that can be expressed there.
about 3 years ago
In most games exploiters are ousted for the trash they are, but in EVE, the only true hero’s exploit
about 3 years ago
“And, that is why game designers with a vision of pvp utopia often find it dissolves at the addition of actual players. Any game design that rewards evil exclusively winds up as unpleasant to play as one would expect for everyone who isn’t of the ilk.”
And this is why PvPers think carebears are idiots. PvP has nothing to do with rewarding evil. PvP utopia is just about letting people compete for a prize on a fair playing field. Something like guildwars. There’s no evil involved.
about 3 years ago
Ah yes, the warm, comforting blanket of stereotypes. “All people who like PvP are griefers who enjoy killing newbs all day long, stealing their stuff, and laughing at their anguish.” “All people who dislike PvP are carebears who want to sit in role-playing macramé contests and trying on different outfits.”
But please, continue.
about 3 years ago
At least there’s money to gain in the workforce. At least there’s security or justice to gain in war. These things arguably justify a lack of care for life, but you always have the choice not to do it.
Or, you could be taking land in a war, gaining power in a workforce, etc. Not all goals need to be noble, nor physical gain. People will lie, cheat and steal for reputation (even if it’s reputation with a group that doesn’t share the same moral concepts as we do).
I’m saying this isn’t some magical gamer illness, it’s a mental situation in which you value something (anything) and are willing to do shady shit to attain or improve it.
In this game’s case, CCP pretty much encourages the behavior and creates systems that allow for it to be easily exploited (cough cough pos passwords cough. There’s no gameplay reason that your turrets know who your corp doesn’t like no matter what, but your forcefield entirely relies on something a spy can give away except to encourage espionage)
I’m not saying this is a GOOD ideal, I’m again simply stating it’s not a gamer thing. It’s a human thing. People do stupid, mean and petty shit when they feel it’s worthwhile. In business, romance, or games. I mean, why cheat in sports? It’s just a game. People still do it all the damned time, even in little league, which is completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things (in total dollar worth, you could sell your EvE assests for more than winning a little league tournament really means tangably.)
You seem to be insinuating that because something’s online, it’s incapable of having any emotional attachment to anyone, and I just don’t get that any more than the idea that a piece or artwork or a poem isn’t anything special. It’s something you worked to create, you should have some minor level of emotional investment in it.
about 3 years ago
No. I’m explaining to kalain that mean gamers are mean because it’s more than just a personality trait when it comes to games that blur the line between game and reality, like eve, where invasion of privacy is encouraged outside the game.
This does seem like the usual carebear hate against free for all pvp jerks, but the key difference is free for all pvp jerks stick to their game. Rarely do they defend the honor of their beloved games outside their community anymore (lum’s talking points on darkfall was the most recent invasion I’ve seen in several years), and even fewer of them would commit so far as to fake/hack their way into private forums or irc/vent channels to fuck with them. Yet this is what Eve encourages pvpers to do against their enemies. Spy and disroupt them at all costs to better your chances of virtual victory in electronic outer space.
about 3 years ago
I was addressing a specific kind of pvp utopia, one that in no way resembles Guild Wars, but is much closer to Eve. The “hardcore” Ultima Online model. One where anyone can pvp anyone at any time. One where, supposedly, self-selecting ‘good guys’ will team up to oppose ‘gankers’ making there an emergent fun gameplay. One that permeates game design wish-fulfillment; I read rumors that the creator of the Sims thought that in Sims Online, people would make volunteer fire departments if they let them burn down buildings.
A specific kind of vision of pvp utopia that creates the perfect ground for breeding this sort of evil.
No, most pvp players aren’t evil. They’re just having fun competitively. I can have fun pvp’ing myself most of the time that way. As soon as someone is framing me for an exploit and my account gets suspended because I won a battle, though, or they spoof me and get my guild leader angry at me, it’s not in the realm of competitive fun, anymore.
It’s clear enough that there’s a sizable minority of players, Mittanis and xaldins, that have a Tonya Harding view of sportsmanship. And if they have any success, they attract hangers-on and imitators. And fans. Joe – did you even read the article? or did you just read my comment? lol
about 3 years ago
I think the title of the post has an implication too.
“The Game Within The Game Within The Game”.
Only it’s not like that. It’s not in the game, it’s outside, in real life, interfering with real assets, things that were and are considered out of bounds by most people playing MMO’s. I believe even most of the true PVPers would consider their real life to be not part of the “playing field”, and even less so consider it “even”, since the game is a simulation, where you can, for the most part, even things out, real life isnt.
But it’s not just the PVPers i want to mention. Basically, we always wished for something like the Intelligence Operations etc. etc. described in that story to be in games, to be a mechanic, to be “a game within the game”, yet EVE has done it differently, in what i consider a malevolent way, because it forces you to wager more than you’d expect to. It’s not the same kind of game as the other MMOs, it’s more akin to gambling in real life, where you might possibly lose a months worth in salary, or performing risky acts in relationships with people close to you. Yet in these activities, there’s the possibility of gain. Monetary, social, whatever, while in a GAME, because that’s where EVE doesnt go BEYOND being a game, there is none. (Though people will argue that there might in fact be social gain to this.)
I’d love to see things like the stuff described to be in games, but as part of the game, or only touching things related to the game. If it goes beyond that, it can not and should not be viewed or treated as a game, and personally i would stay away from it, because what i’m looking for as a recreational activity is a game, and nothing else.
about 3 years ago
Name another living game where you can gain an advantage in a strategic/economic sense by hacking forums and having guild leader level spies?
The only one I can think of was Shadowbane, which had it’s share of turncoat drama.
The deal is, in UO me knowing where you keep your stuff is pointless. In DAOC, me knowing where your scouts were was slightly pointless on a grand scale (though holy radar exploits in that game for a while). Eve has enough crap going on (and things need to stay cooking/crafting long enough) that you have a metagame of hiding what you’re up to on a grand scale. So you have a meta metagame of finding out what they’re up to. And per usual, some people will do anything to get that information.
I find it absolutely no different as a personality trait than people who will commit corperate espionage or scam people out of money. Just because it deals with bits on a computer doesn’t make it less worth doing for some people. Risk/Reward ratios remain about the same. Though you’re not getting money out of it, you’re not risking jail time either (it’s not hacking someone’s forums to be given an account because you were a spy, kids!) You gain a large benefit in a game for little risk. You’re a dick for doing it, but some people don’t mind being dicks in general.
Personally, as I said, I don’t have the mean streak to take over in EvE, so I don’t play it much. I find it a fascinating experiment however, and it shows that some people will stress the limits of acceptability in order to win in any competetive environment. If it would have given you an advantage in DAOC to hack someone’s forums and listen to their vent servers, people would have done it. But the game was too small geographically and too large player wise to really have the ability to make sure the entire enemy army was somewhere else for an operation to succeed. But there was a lot of relic raid drama about OMG SPIES when you tried to ninja a relic.