What Darkfall Expects Of You: To TAKE YOUR FORUM INVASION LIKE A MAN!

The Darkfall Forum isn’t happy I closed the 2 1/2 week old post on a Darkfall commentary that turned into PK VS ANTI, PART 87,308,022. I’d have posted this on their forums instead, it being considerably more relevant there, but, well, their forum has a 72 hour waiting period. Yes, posting in Darkfall’s forums is much like buying a handgun.

What kind of bullshit is that. I know this is kinda off topic, but to have a entire page mocking this game, yet shutting down the discussion because the peopel who support it come to….support it..is the msot ridiculously self centered and self righteous thing i’ve ever seen anyone do i na forum. I guess i dont’ visit enough forums or something.

I know the distinction is probably lost, but I wasn’t mocking Darkfall, but the *manly man* commentary someone made about it. To mock Darkfall (which I wouldn’t do anyway since I rarely if ever talk about specific games due to working on competing products), I would have to know anything about it, preferably through – you know – playing it.

And I shut down the post comments because it was in response to a Darkfall developer almost literally telling his fans to go “defend the faith” two weeks after the post actually had been made. Said fans did so, and did so vociferously and without knowing or caring about any other posts on the blog, which, frankly, I didn’t find terribly amusing. Yet still, I let it run for about a week, so that everyone who wanted to get in their points could. When the post war showed no sign of ending, and in fact started repeating themselves (easy to do since the identical arguments have been raging since the previous century), I put the whole thing out of its misery.

This no doubt pissed off the participants, who then went back to Darkfall and muttered the same frat-boy juvenile things they muttered since I mocked the literally exact same people for literally the exact same reasons EIGHT FREAKING YEARS AGO.

OSI hired Sir Adrick and Evocare. I laughed and then I cried.

===

Who cares about what Scott Jennings does on his own worthless section of the internet? His blog is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. He posted a completely bullshit response to an article, and when his ignorant ass got called for it and the Darkfall community stepped up to the plate, he realized that the average Forumfall members excrement contains a greater degree of intelligence so he ran like a bitch. I don’t see the issue. Let idiots be idiots.

You know, I’m not sure what would piss them off more – the realization that I’m actually not just a random blogger, or that Evocare is responsible for the PvP and systems design on a somewhat popular game.

But let’s move on to the key mistake they made about my personal investment or lack thereof in all of this:

Yeah, he apparently feels that he can be a critic, but wants to be above criticism himself. I guess it sucks to be called out on a facetious remark on your own blog.

he can dish it out, but he has to go cry and lock the post as soon as he’s called out… lame… O.o…

Except that for the most part, I didn’t take part in the *very* *long* *argument*. Because, well, nothing new was being said. It’s the same argument that raged back when people were pissed off that someone stole their house keys in UO. It’s the same argument that Shadowbane fans made any time someone dared point out that the game they were rabidly following TO THE DEATH did not yet technically exist.

I didn’t say anything mainly because, well, I already did, years ago, and there’s no real reason to repeat myself. So really, I had no dog in the hunt; the comment thread itself was closed simply because the blog’s actual readers as opposed to forum invaders had moved on, and in my capacity as site janitor, it was my job to shut it down so as to not clog the “new comments” indicators.

So there you have it. Feel free to chuckle and high-five each other about how you pizz0wn3d the carebear. (Despite, you know, my being neither.) Hope you have fun in Darkfall!

  • Freakazoid

    History repeats itself? Well I’ll be damned.

    Anyway, now they can come to THIS thread and continue defending their honor!

    Check and mate, good sir.

  • BloodyViking

    Hey its your blog :-)

    I’m all for games like Darkfall and more diversity in the MMOG genre. Discussions are always a good thing, but I agree that people need to read the arguments and try to bring something new to the table instead of repeating the same arguments.

  • http://gawain.diaryland.com Gawain

    the only complaint I have is that you look too GQ in your “about” pic to be “representin.” I demand that mmo employees cover their work stations in fake “replica” weaponry, and dress like General British. Your suit confounds me.

  • http://www.cesspit.net/ Abalieno

    Kinda stuck in a hole.

    Rereading that 2004 post was interesting and fun, though.

    it achieved some very interesting things. Namely, it brought very different people into one world. It’s almost the antithesis both of the thousands of MUDs that predated it, and the dozens of MMOs that followed. It was, well, UO. And thanks to its design, it appealed to a great many people.

    And thus the problem. It appealed to many people. And some of those just couldn’t get along. And the game’s mechanics allowed them to not get along in quite a spectacular fashion.

    [...]

    unlike UO, everyone is playing the same game in Shadowbane.

    But the idea of opening a gate to a deserted island, the unknown past the gate, the way these tools were actually “tools” to be used with inventiveness… That’s stuff still fascinating and worth a second thought.

  • http://www.cesspit.net/ Abalieno

    Oh, and that wikipedia entry says that Tom Chilton worked at Blizzard for five years. Quite weird as he joined Blizzard only in 2004.

  • Merlyn

    I suppose enough e-peens have been waggled to make someone feel fulfilled…

    I hope…the e-waste was getting deep.

    I’ll be honest, I love good, fair PvP…I just don’t like most of the PvP’ers (I’m being overly generous). And the torrent of nonsense that went on is why.

  • Dren

    I don’t understand the drama. If they want a full open PvP game, then make it and sell it. We’ll see where things land. I’m ready for a SB done correctly.

    That last part seems to be the kicker for most.

  • http://www.nerfbat.com/ Ryan Shwayder

    Wait, is Darkfall still going to come out? News to me…

  • Pingback: Nerfbat » Consequence-Free PvP Sucks

  • http://www.killtenrats.com Cyndre

    My Vaporware is totally going to pwn your vaporware in the fase when someone gets around to designing actual content!!!11111eleven!11

  • Blackblade

    ” Hope you have fun in Darkfall!”

    Something tells me they’re hoping too.. perhaps hoping just a little to fanatically.

    It would be terrible if it turned out to be one of THOSE games that players were so anxious about, wouldn’t it?

  • Merkwurdigliebe

    But what does this have to do with Ultima Online 2, Shadowbane, Dawn, Ultima X: Odyssey, Earth&Beyond, or Ron Paul?

  • DarkVapor

    Darkfall isn’t vapor! They have videos to prove it. You can see their awesome textures that look like someone photographed a moldy bowl of cocoa crispies. They have character animations so realistic that you can almost see the attached puppet strings. And lets not forget their unique weapon designs. Where else can you find a square 3d cannon (barrel) that fires round sprite cannon balls? Darkfall is truly the pinnacle of 20th century 3d graphics.

  • Memnock

    “But what does this have to do with Ultima Online 2, Shadowbane, Dawn, Ultima X: Odyssey, Earth&Beyond, or Ron Paul?”

    Oh, man… Dawn. I can’t believe Lum has been able to hold back on rubbing those guys’ face in it after all of their rabid reactions to his ranting about Dawn back in the day. I mean, I know ignoring them completely as if they aren’t pretending they still exist is the actual true revenge… but damnit, that’s not entertaining. I want entertainment! DONT YOU REALISE THAT MY ENTERTAINMENT IS AT STEAK???!1?1!!

  • Scott

    The pwnination of smack here by layed down upon you by the Darkfall community both frightens and leaves me in awe.

    That’ll teach you to have a well presented and documented opinion.

    Design to crush, indeed.

  • http://ambernight.org Amber

    So…is this a call for open CvC (Community vs Community) on Darkfall? I’m totally up for some consequence-free CvC.

    Darkfall raid, LF39M

  • Merkwurdigliebe

    E-pwnage: because name-calling in person is dangerous.

  • HitNRun

    So who wants to put down on when this thread will have to be locked? I say Seven to Ten Days. You can pick “more” or “less” and I’ll pay you even money if you’re right.

    Lum, you’re not allowed to play.

  • Brant

    This just made my day.

  • http://www.killtenrats.com Zubon

    If there are any more shenanigans here, I am deleting the internet. You will be unable to play Dawn. Consider yourself warned.

  • JJC

    I finished 2nd in the hate and I don’t even have a blog.

  • Vleskoe

    If you’re not just a random blogger why run around yelling and screaming with your resume in your hand waving it in everyone’s face?

    Look right here! I worked on a video game! See! I AM relevant!

    You had me at “isn’t happy” until I read that comment. Ugh.

  • Aufero

    Now I need to go back and read all the comments on that Darkfall post for amusement. And I was just about to go get something done, damn you.

  • http://thesongoftheday.com chabuhi

    Somebody fill me in.

    Wait … don’t.

  • VonKaiser

    We don’t play games to bake bread, we surmise that this video gaming experience will be based upon insurmountable calamitous intent garnished with rampant murder and thievery to a degree which fulfills all of our greatest desires atleast thats how it was explained to us on the internet.

  • http://www.cesspit.net/ Abalieno

    I think the point can be easily summarized.

    That kind of PvP is fun as long there are easy preys. UO was full of newbies, so lots of preys. Would the PK have the same fun in a game where there are only others PK with about the same experience and knowledge?

    Because that equals to another form of consensual PvP.

  • Jobrill

    Man, I’m just enjoying the trip down memory lane. It’s like lumthemad.com(.net?) never left, and I’m just sitting here watching the flames on Dawn go buy or playing Stump the J. with Minotaur Trivia or whatever, and that little cloak man icon is just staring down over it all.

    I feel like I should be baking bread now, though, strangely enough.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com J.

    Wait, is Darkfall still going to come out?

    Like a queer cousin at Christmas.

  • yunk

    Wait a minute, are you telling me THERE ARE GAMES WHERE I CAN BAKE BREAD!!???

    Where are these wonderous games?

  • ts383

    I’ve often wondered how long you can bait a community with the promise of a game, or the idea of a game, and have them staunchly defend it without ever seeing it (Post 2 Crush!).

    I believe Darkfall may even outlast SB in this regard.

  • Fylraen

    A few things to say:

    1) There are a couple reasons the Darkfall forums have a waiting period for access. One: so that people don’t come by and post drive-by “you guys are lame” or “Darkfall sux is vapors lol” type things. In the end these things just aren’t constructive. Two: As you’ve noted, some of our community members are combative. A few friendly volunteers field questions from people who sign up and are genuinely excited about the game. Due to Darkfall’s protracted time in the field of public awareness, we’ve had people asking similar questions for many years and we’d rather have their questions answered reasonably and in a polite manner, rather than brutally by aforementioned combative folks.

    2) Some of us just aren’t satisfied by the current batch of MMOs. Maybe Darkfall will satisfy the desire for something innovative, and maybe it won’t. That’s in the hands of Aventurine at this point. All that we know, as community members, is that they are trying to build something different and exciting, and it’s my mild opinion that you could excuse the enthusiasm of those who defend the project. Darkfall’s feature list is very, very optimistic and if it’s put together properly it’s going to be a hell of a game.

    So we wait. And we’ll see.

    In the meantime, as someone who’s at least nominally invested in the future of massive gaming, I think you could probably stand to recognize the project for what it is – a weird (and potentially potent) mixture of niche players-turned-developers and money set out to cater to a distinct and growing subsect of the MMO population.

    Maybe you’re doing Darkfall a favor by keeping it a subject of discussion on your site here, and for that I suppose some thanks are in order. It’s not a surprise, from a PR perspective, that the developer you mentioned pointed people your way after you opened the can of worms. Anything that gets the word out is probably good news for us Darkfall fans.

  • Jeremy Dalberg

    Fylraen, I’d actually disagree with your last contention – this kind of drama actively turns me off of forthcoming games. I haven’t been following Darkfall specifically, so all I know is that the target audience is… combative. And that the developers seem to be actively encouraging this combativeness. Therefore, it does not sound like a friendly community to a casual/mildly interested player such as myself, and I’ll avoid it unless my perception of it changes at some point.

    (I had the exact same reaction to the vocal Vanguard playerbase, actually, and I can’t say I regret missing out on that launch.)

  • Owen Morgan-Jones

    I’m of the same opinion as Jeremy above. All that’s happened here is that I’ve found out that a bunch internet trolls are fans of a particular game. That’s not the kind of marketing anyone really wants.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com/ J.

    Everything Fylraen just said in defense of the forums makes me wonder why they have forums at all. Unless people thought “Waiting for Godot” was a manual for community building.

  • TPRJones

    I’m developing a theory of global warming based on the marked increase in internet flame wars.

    You all just became a data point.

  • http://www.fearoflanding.com/ sylvia

    I’ve seen photographs of you; I am not convinced at all by your vehement denial of being a carebear! The beard gives it away. ;)

  • Sam

    So how do I go on to pull an Evocare? As I recall, he was like the biggest PK on the shard, and then got hired as a designer out of nowhere. As in, he still had all his buddies ICQing him trying to sell him houses and be like “help me just got PKed”, and then the next day he’s all of a sudden a designer on the game he’s been playing.

    God DAMN that’s a dream come true. I guess I’d need to be playing a game that I liked first though, right?

  • Sam

    Oh, and as for Darkfall… People who like PvP don’t need easy prey. I think we’re all just waiting for a game that doesn’t have a level-based talent-spec’d pre-targeted class-oriented excuse for pvp mechanics. You know why we liked UO? Not because there was lots of people to kill. Because it was about TIMING. Just like Mario. Just like Sonic. Just like Zelda. Just like pretty much every good old fashioned video-game there has ever been. Where’s the timing in spamming shadow bolt? The skill in grinding xp? I mean, when you get hit while you cast, YOU KEEP CASTING. It just takes longer. C’mon now… even Street Fighter II knew better than that.

    The MMORPG is an amazing genre, but there’s really no variety. We just want something that’s fun to PLAY. You know how everyone talks about reward schedules and epic loot and that’s what keeps people playing WoW, and all the other MMOs on the market? You’re supposed to be rewarded for doing something you DON’T like to do, like homework, or going to a shitty job. The gameplay itself should be rewarding. It should be fun to blast someone with a fireball and watch him get blown off of a tower. It should be satisfying to slam a halberd into someone’s face. It shouldn’t be boring to sit through the fight, and then the good part comes when your guild finally figures out that everyone else has the item that just dropped, and it’s finally your turn to get some loot.

  • JJC

    If I read that correctly, Fylraen is defending “safe zones” in a forum for a game that supposedly has none.

  • xaldin

    Those who have failed to learn history are doomed to repeat it.

    The parallels between Darkfall and Shadowbane communities are so close that if they’d been developed at the same time I’d have called them fraternal twins. Perhaps even twins who have -far- too much interest in each other to be healthy, or normal outside of some oddball southern states and West Virginia.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com/ J.

    On the contrary, I’d put the Shadowbane beta community to the Pepsi Challenge versus any MMO community that has ever been. There were some good people in there.

    They just didn’t stick together for long. The game made people hate each other.

  • Toastrider

    I’m waiting for Lum to taxi to victory all over their asses.

    –TR

  • Scot NZ

    Still waiting for that next generation MMO that keeps pace with the likes of single player games for, you know.. fun.
    GuComics may as well draw up “the zapper” drafts for DarkFall and many others in development right now.

  • http://www.psychochild.org/ Brian ‘Psychochild’ Green

    Hmm, there’s a fire here. And I’ve got this can of gasoline. And some nitro. What to do, what to do….

    Fylraen wrote:
    In the meantime, as someone who’s at least nominally invested in the future of massive gaming, I think you could probably stand to recognize the project for what it is – a weird (and potentially potent) mixture of niche players-turned-developers and money set out to cater to a distinct and growing subsect of the MMO population.

    No, as experienced developers invested in the future of massive gaming, we recognize Darkfall for what it is: another team doomed to follow the mistakes made by so many people before. How do we know? Because we’ve been there before. Some of us even own games that pioneered some of the mistakes in graphical format.

    I’m a huge PvP fan. I played a lot of PvP MUDs in college. I played two hardcore ones: Genocide (that’s where I started using the pseudonym Psychochild, because it was long and harder to type), and one based on TRON with resetting mazes between fights. Most of the other games I played had relatively open PvP. I enjoyed PvP and didn’t really know that it was possible to not like PvP; it was the status quo in most games. So, when I got into graphical games, I wanted PvP. My love of PvP culminated in taking out a lot of credit card debt to save Meridian 59 and relaunch it for the community.

    Nearly 10 years later, I realize that PvP in MMOs is a very complex beast. The ideal is to have free-for-all, rules-lite games. The problem is, as Lum famously pointed out, people are broken. Now, the absolute best game would be if I could get together all the cool PvPers and have a game with just them. These would be the people that would fight fair, and would play for fun, not simply to crush people to stroke their e-peen. Some of the best people I know I met in M59. I have never felt such a great sense of community in any other game.

    The big problem is that a PvP-heavy game tends to attract more mouth-breathers than decent people. You get all kinds of cheating, exploiting, rude, crass, and socially unacceptable fucktards. (I have to call them “customers” to their virtual faces, though.) These are the people that make me spend my free time thinking of how to wipe out the human race without harming the ecosystem. (Aside to my therapist: it’s a joke. I’m past that stage, remember?) The killer here is that it’s difficult to separate out these two types of people as an administrator. Further, having a subscription-based business model means that you need to take as many people as you can, which opens your game up to both the noble PvPers and cheating asshats. The problems with games like M59 and UO were rarely that the games themselves felt unfair or unfun, rather that the community usually ended up being something that many people couldn’t stomach. When your game welcomes in the undesirables, you usually find that your game doesn’t tend to grow larger, as is needed to sustain it.

    Unfortunately, Darkfall is showing what kind of people are attracted to it; those that will go storm a forum for no other reason that, “OMG, he said something BAD about our relig…er, game,” don’t exactly strike me as the noble PvPer type.

    So, as someone who is interested in the future of online games, I know that someone repeating the same mistakes from the past isn’t going to make things magically better. And, it doesn’t look like those mistakes are going to be avoided. If anything, as other people have pointed out, it looks like they’re right on the same track similar games have already paved. I wish them the best of luck (they will need it), but I’m sure once they’ve been working on the game for a few years we’ll be able to share beers and share exactly the same types of stories.

    Have fun,

  • Naladini

    Interesting. There’s a few threads like these floating around, yet I don’t see any names with a _SZ on the end. The times, they are a’changing.

  • Fylraen

    JCC Wrote: If I read that correctly, Fylraen is defending “safe zones” in a forum for a game that supposedly has none.

    Yes, you read it correctly. :) We joke about it. At any rate you could think of it as more of a tutorial before you go online. Darkfall also does have de facto safe zones in the starter areas of cities, where you’re free to get whupped by guards if you go around being a jerk. Finally, there’s an alignment system to encourage people towards clan versus clan or race versus race fighting, rather than simply turning everyone loose into a total free-for-all. You can RPK if you feel like it, but it changes the game experience substantially.

    Brian Green Wrote: No, as experienced developers invested in the future of massive gaming, we recognize Darkfall for what it is: another team doomed to follow the mistakes made by so many people before. How do we know? Because we’ve been there before.

    But you haven’t been there before. They’re trying some new things with this project. The folks who say things like what you’ve just said haven’t really given a look at what Darkfall’s hoping to accomplish. It takes elements of the traditional MMO, RTS, and FPS games and mashes them together. If it works (and I accept that this is a big if) it will be an entirely new beast. This game could appeal as much or more to players of something like the Battlefield series or Planetside than to someone who loves World of Warcraft. The original column that sparked this whole escapade basically said this, but in a somewhat relig…ious way.

    Unfortunately, Darkfall is showing what kind of people are attracted to it; those that will go storm a forum for no other reason that, “OMG, he said something BAD about our relig…er, game,” don’t exactly strike me as the noble PvPer type.

    Well, I suppose you can see it that way. As I’ve pointed out, these are the vocal few. Over thirty thousand people have registered on the Darkfall forums and although a few have come out this way to stir the pot, they’re hardly indicative of the total base of interested individuals. They’re the proselytizers, and like most with a proselytic bent, they’re sometimes inscrutable.

    I obviously take a bit less of an exception to people being abrasive than some others do. Maybe those of us with thicker skins comprise a niche market, but there’s very real potential that, with the extreme growth of the online player base, this niche has become a viable one. There are games out there (EvE, say) that have at least managed to maintain a level of success with ~100,000 subscribers. To suggest that Darkfall might capture that many out of the literal millions out there enjoying massive gaming is optimistic, but not unfathomable at all.

    Not every project needs to aspire to be the next World of Warcraft. If you look at any basic, mature product market you’ll have a clear category leader with several smaller competitors that cater to specific interests better than the leader does. You’re approaching this discussion with the perspective of someone who wants the biggest slice of the pie, rather than an opportunistic outside who realizes that a smaller piece is a lot better than nothing.

    I’m sorry for the long-windedness, but really… I’m trying to show foremost that plenty of us are reasonable and have thought about our support of this game for quite some time. For my part, I’m perfectly willing to put up with some of your “mouth breathers” to enjoy the game that I want to play, and I’m counting on Darkfall to provide it. Maybe I’ll be let down, but hey. In the end, it’s a video game.

  • DaveN

    In the pen-and-paper RPG world, there’s a name for games like Shadowbane, Darkfall, Dawn and others. “Fantasy Heartbreakers. These are the games that have everything that the designer and a bunch of like-minded people think would be really, really cool. Some of them even get published. And then the market tells them “you suck.” That is, no one buys it (or not enough do so to offset the costs incurred). And then there is another round on various RPG sites where people tell each other, “But there HAS to be a market for niche games!” And there is. But those games that find a niche and fill it well are not the heartbreakers

    These games are heartbreakers not because they break the hearts of the people who front the costs to get the game published, but because you can see the 10% of good ideas in there, hampered by amateur design, poor execution and the other 90% of the game, which is just shite.

    Unfortunately the MMO industry has much higher costs (you need more than a xerox machine and a saddle stapler). As a result, more games end up in the heartbreaker category.

    We need a term for these kinds of games in the MMO world. I mean, other than just “games where a company is at steak.”

    On the other hand, I kind of like that…

  • DaveN

    Damn it, borked the link. Here it is: Fantasy Heartbreakers

  • Simond

    It’s always interesting to see the reoccuring theme of “People want a more strategic PvP game with regional control, grand armies, etc.” and yet nobody mentions EVE.

  • http://www.psychochild.org/ Brian ‘Psychochild’ Green

    Fylraen wrote:
    But you haven’t been there before. They’re trying some new things with this project.

    Oh, yes, I have been there. Don’t assume that because NDAs prevent me from talking about projects I’ve seen that I haven’t seen something before.

    Lots of games have been developed before, and there are lot of corpses littering the ground. Fetal corpses sometimes, unfortunately. Enough to load a whole crew of fetapults.

    As I’ve pointed out, these are the vocal few.

    Here’s a free prediction for you: these people will take over the game. They might be only a few people, but they know how to be loud and get noticed. They’ll use those exact same skills in the game. And, yes, I’ve been there, too. Trust me, these people don’t magically become quiet, passive souls after the game is going.

    Not every project needs to aspire to be the next World of Warcraft.

    I take it you have absolutely no idea who I am if you feel the need to reply to me with that type of line. Understandable, because I don’t have an army of forum jockeys to go raid a blog’s comments at my command. ;)

    As I said before, I wish the Darkfall team the best of luck, and the offer to commiserate with them over beers after their launch is still open. First round is on them, though; newbies always buy it first.