See you in Ultima Online… no, Shadowbane… uh, DAOC… hey, SWG… wait, Horizons…. Vanguard?… Darkfall! YEAH! Totally see you in Darkfall, newb!
It's nice to know that the rabid hardcore still exist, and still hate you.
So how do these games become more accessible to the drooling masses? Easy! Just implement grinding, level treadmills, restrict any and all competition whatsoever. These systems are intentionally in place to prevent anyone from over-achieving or failing. I recently saw a WoW ad that said "Come join 8 million heroes!" Suddenly every single player is automatically a hero? Essentially, most MMOs are designed so anyone can hop on a game, gain levels and pay $15 US per month for their instant hero status.
These designers don't want to reward players for their achievements. They just want to make every mouth-breather who logs on think that they're special, for fear that they'll quit playing at any sign of disappointment. And even worse, they expect us all to be morons.
Ah, for the days when games violently punched you in the throat and dared you to keep paying them money.
The problem with hardcore PvP games is, as has been often said by myself and others, that while many think they are of the hardcore, few actually are. And while the spectre of being killed repeatedly with no recourse, your home sowed with salt and your guild banners used for tablecloths for the meal of human jerky you kindly donated to may sound nice at first, the bloom tends to fade from the rose when you realize that no, you're probably never going to be the guys carving the jerky.
Which isn't to say that Darkfall won't TOTALLY ROCK YOUR FACE, because honestly I haven't a clue. But the rhetoric from their fans sure looks familar!
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July 26th, 2007 - 14:59
“But there is no reason why it shouldnt be economicaly viable.”
They want fast food prices and celebrity chef quality.
And in a related post, the number 2 guys quit after a few months because they can’t keep up with the sniping and ganking in a world that punishes death harshly. They quit after a year or so if the game is soft on death. It’s just not a style that lasts because it is a defensive style and the game rewards offense and offense only. If the 5 guys are too good at their job, the 2’s quit quickly too.
July 26th, 2007 - 15:07
Mist – Well, not entirely. In Eve-China, one group of wolves has essentially “won”. And BoB are..dominant, whatever the goons say, in Eve-Online proper. This is after massive amounts of fixed infrastructure which involves long sieges have been introduced.
This says something about massive fixed infrastructure in a PvP game, I think.
July 26th, 2007 - 17:31
In EVE china, almost everyone just wanted to farm 0.0 space, for whatever reason. Most of the players had no interest in PvP, so a dictatorship which quashed any organized PvPers was established. It wasn’t that there was a group of wolves at all, there was just a whole lot of sheep who would blindly follow anyone who had guns and wasn’t a pirate. The masses of casual farmers got exactly what they wanted despite it being a mostly FFA PvP game.
As for the Tranquility server, BoB hasn’t gained any ground since the Titan nerf, and their pets have taken significant losses.
July 27th, 2007 - 09:43
I think Red Morgan won this thread with:
“I know that if you’re looking to make money, another EQ clone or Korean grindfest is the way to go.”
Problem with many developers today that it is *all* about money and nothing about games… It saddens me to see that a lot of you will shit in a box and release it if it what brings most money. That is fine, but don’t condescend and try to talk down people that still care about gaming, ones that try new things like open PvP titles, instead of cloning DIKU. Even if it fails, we failed while FOLLOWING OUR DREAM while you chose to sell your ambition for few extra bucks.
August 2nd, 2007 - 14:43
The same crap from the same naysers over and over again. Freedom to do what you want is key. Not the false “freedom” that other devs spew from their pie wholes. Not everyone is a “hero” in an MMO or in the world, so why center the game around a bunch of people who cant achieve at life and therefor must have a virtual world to achieve. Leave the low lifes with WoW and allow those of us who want to play a fun game have Darkfall.
The ability to mold the world because of what you do, even if its just a smmmmalllllll molding is what makes Darkfall the game of choice for many. People have been telling devs for years that freedom is the key. Not to the point of complete stupidity, but Im sure those of you who are intelligent understand the concept of freedom I speak of.
I really do hope that Darkfall forces at least a few of the idiots out there to focus on a fun MMO and not just a lame grindfest. Though I wont be leaving Darkfall until they shut the servers down….
=P
August 2nd, 2007 - 14:47
Interesting to go through all the different views here.
However, I was surprised that the name “Darktide” comes up only once in a discussion about the functionality of an open PvP environment.
I have been playing MMO’s for well over 10 years now. In all my days I have never seen human instinct fall so into place in a virtual society as in Asheron’s Call Darktide. Most people assume that when players are given free choice the game will dive into chaos and be ruled by roaming bands of PKs who slaughter all insight.
Was Darktide like this? Of course not. If game developers balance their game well, the players will balance themselves. Just like in the offline world, darktide was host to both the good and the bad. And until the developers became negligent in their duties and let things get out of hand (XP chains, duping etc.) we saw the ideal balance of PKs and Anti’s.
If the developers create a game that truly lends itself to the personality of the gamer AND makes gameplay viable as either a good guy or a bad guy, there is no reason that open PvP in an MMO cannot be acheived in a commercially successful game.
August 2nd, 2007 - 15:27
The endless debate, yet most seemingly lost in the sea of their own desires.
To date, most games require countless hours of wasted youth in pursuit of the “sword of poon.” That almightly thing that makes them stand out and be recognized by all others that you have no real life. Of course, the time-consumed player becomes out-raged and disgusted when thousands of others start showing up with their equally impressive “staff of mack daddy carnage” relegating our hardcore uber-man equal status.
Cheers to Darkfall for ending the time sink. No classes, no leveling, no restrictions on skills learned = no limits! For once, a game that can be enjoyed from shrink-wrap and not one that requires 16 on-line days to reach max level. It promises a game that is balanced around killing PCs and provides current dreams of equal footing. My chess board looks like yours, the characters equal in power on both sides but I doubt you can beat me – in MMO form. A gamers Game. I think i like it.
While i am sure the devs have created an environment of equality, the one remaining question – is there a reason to play. Did they build in some objective, provide rewards or is it even possible. I think so, but will they go there?
Take Second Life. Yep, you can earn real-life dollars for your online play. That is a gaming model with sustainability. Craft your life away and earn some real jack. Conquer land and sell it. That could be a huge windfall in a game the size of real-life Germany. Without some purspose, whats the point?
I sure hope Darkfall delivers on its promise but I fear there will be nothing worth fighting for.
August 2nd, 2007 - 15:52
Well, I commend this thread on being fairly level headed compared to some other pk vs anti-pk discussions.
But I must say I can almost see the froth in the corner of the mouth of some of the more casual, pve inclinded people in this thread. It’s always puzzled me how ‘carebears’ get so riled up about pk, as if they take offense to its very exisitence, as if people who like this sort of stuff must be some kind of sadistic monster.
I acquired my thirst for blood in the text based days of MUDs and those games were really about skill. I loved the competition, the existence of consequence (loss/gain of equipment), and even though it took me years to get good or in the top 10% or whatever I still loved it. For darkfall I expect to be killed and full looted many times, smack talked, and still thoroughly enjoy the game. Why? Because it makes victory that much sweeter.
Gianna on point and witty like your comic.
August 2nd, 2007 - 16:08
“Just like in the offline world, darktide was host to both the good and the bad.”
Unfortunately the bad camped the n00b spawning points. I’m not sure where the good hung out. If Darktide was the ‘ideal balance’ you can have it.
I hope Darkfall isn’t vaporware. It’ll be interesting to hear why another FFA PvP didn’t work.
“The reasons Shadowbane failed had very little to do with PvP. They had everything to do with bad concepts, bad design, bad coding, bad implementation, bad management, bad customer relations, and a general-purpose failure of common sense.”
[Asheron's Call] “And until the developers became negligent in their duties and let things get out of hand (XP chains, duping etc.) we saw the ideal balance of PKs and Anti’s.”
August 2nd, 2007 - 18:35
Some of you guys are dumb. It’s not THAT Darkfall isn’t out, it’s not even about Darkfall, really. The whole inspiration is from the idea that someone decided to say “Fuck the system, we’re going to do it OUR way” and make a truly next gen game. Better graphics does NOT make a next gen game. Customization, challenges, intricacy, streamline gameplay, and innovation make next gen games. THAT is why Darkfall is next gen. Get your heads out of your asses.
August 2nd, 2007 - 19:37
[Jujutsu says: "Unfortunately the bad camped the n00b spawning points. I’m not sure where the good hung out. If Darktide was the ‘ideal balance’ you can have it."
After the flaws in Asheron's Call's XP chain system were exposed, a great many people exploited it and became very powerful. Naturally, the "bad guys" are more likely to be on the front of any trend in exploiting. Because the devs never stepped in to slow down the rise to power of a small group of people, the balance was destroyed.
Look at a good balance of power in a MMO being similar to the real world. Where good and bad both exist in conflict, but one never completely wins. What happens in most MMOs, is that one side gains too much strength and the other side slowly dwindles until nothing exists but lesser degrees of the more powerful side.
As long as players are given free choice in a game, and developers make sure "ultimate power" is not resting solely with one group, a good balance will exist.
August 2nd, 2007 - 19:44
The open-PvP aspect of Darkfall is getting all the attention, and frankly it annoys me. This is not a PvP game, it is simply a game with no artificial restrictions on player conduct. The two are not synonymous (and I expect a lot of ‘hard-core’ gankers to be disappointed). When the world around you can and will make you dead fast and often, you develop a taste for allies, even if you’re fully capable of killing those around you; and when healing is a scarce commodity, you gain a corresponding distaste for unnecessary combat. (Has anyone else here played Armageddon MUD?) By all descriptions, Darkfall is supplying a rich and deadly world which easily rivals any single-player RPG, and PvE gameplay will be as much a factor as PvP.
In fact, I’m going to take that a step further. Describing Darkfall using a three-letter abbreviation with a ‘v’ in the middle is wrong. The game is not designed around some one-dimensional “versus” model; Darkfall is built around scarcity of resources. Competition follows naturally, but so does cooperation. There are hints that this can even involve complex cooperation with the “environment.” In fact, if I were to draw out one supposition on the core motivation behind this game’s design from the developers’ statements I’ve read, it would be that they are trying their damnedest to make P and E synonymous without selling either one short.
I have no plans to attack other players, certainly not faction-aligned ones. I dearly appreciate the opportunity to defend myself against those who walk a different path. I want the challenge of the unexpected. I want to be kept on my toes, and forced to hone my combat abilities… as I explore, harvest, and craft.
And as a side note: calling 5 years a long development cycle, crying vaporware? Am I the only person who remembers when Morrowind was first announced?
August 2nd, 2007 - 21:46
6 years, you mean. Darkfall development started in August 2001.
August 2nd, 2007 - 21:51
Check it out, the Darkfall forum folks have arrived. Hiya!
August 2nd, 2007 - 23:01
I fondly remember when I defended my next MMO of choice against people pointing out potential flaws in the system or players (mostly the latter’s habit of abusing systems). Back when I could take a dev’s word in a press release before even a beta started getting leaked around, and firmly believe every word.
Though I never got to the point of naming myself after final fantasy characters and flaming people on random blogs.
August 2nd, 2007 - 23:24
All i will say to you al lis this. If you look at DFO, and see nothing but FFA PVP..you completely missed the point of the project.
While it does in fact include this feature, it is NOT what the game is designed for. It is a piece of the game, not the whole thing. The game is infact more based upon a world at war than it is based upon mindless killing. When i say war..that probably automatically makes you think “well then you just mean large scale PVP”. This is also a misconception. When i say War.. i mean War. I mean attrition, politics, terrain and weather knowledge, skill, armaments, preparedness, strategy, BAD LUCK, espionage, assassination, trade routes, supplies, convoys, REASONS TO FIGHT.
DFO is not at all trying to say “grab the best sword you can and whack a neighbor”. Atleast that’s not how i see it. It’s trying to say “the world is alive, with conflict, with struggles, with tangible, “meaningful” rewards” , but it is not trying to tell you how to approach it. I nfact, if the game is as large as we are told, there is the possibility of there being a “shire” for all those who want to RP the peaceful life in the plains of where ever…the untouched garden so to speak. It may eventually be found and torched… but that is a game “living” instead of a game stagnant.
I will also say this. I would gladly play DFO if it wasn’t a PVP game… simply because even PvE requires me to practice and learn how to fight, and my success is still based on my own skills and wit. No, it’s not the same as a person, but it’s damn sure not the same as WoW either. It’s boring to beable to predetermine every single action the NPC will do, and also to have allyour attacks decided for you. THAT is my problem with games like WoW and it’s Kin. It’s not that i’m a huge PVP buff as i am a huge “i’d rather know i earned it” buff. My own personal strengths AND weaknesses should mean something. My character shouldn’t be the only thing that learns and grows.
example: If i started out the game as some kid with a stick playing “swordsmen”, and let’s say my personal conception of swordsmanship made me acctually play at that level, i should have the opportunity of growing fro mthat point, to a competant soldier. It would MEAN something to me to have started off as someone who barely knew how to hit a moving target, to someone who may not be the best, but could hold his own in a small scale fight of mediocre combatants. It wouldn’t be my memorization of macro key patterns and class based weaknesses that would win the day, but my own daring, risk taking and judgement in a battle. The only thing that should determine how good i am in combat should be me.
On the topic of gear, I don’t mind gear, better equipment should be better. However… in WoW.. levels and gear mean EVERYTHING, skill means ..”meh”. Some of you may recall “the time when i beat this guy who had…” but your missing my point. If you beat someone with better gear than you, you are probably more skilled AND the difference wasn’t that large gear wise. In WoW ..a levle 10 WILL NOT beat a level 50 … period. There is no way. The game is designed to allow the people with levels and gear to be completely out of the league of the lower, and so they are FORCED to grind and PvE ..not given the choice to. If you want to consider FFA PVP griefing, then you have to also consider allowing people that are completely indestructable to go to palces that no one but other completely indestructable (compared to the place) people can fight them greifing. It’s not only griefing, it’s griefing you have absolutely no control over. My point is… it’s not the mode of play that is the “problem” it is the implimentation of that mode of play. i’d rather be the kid with the stick in DFO going up against a fully armored veteran knight, than be the level 10 with the steel sword going up against the flaming demonic armored warlock in WoW. Why? Because in DFO i might acctually beable to ATLEAST embarrass the knight. Win? Probably not..but getting a few decent “clangs” in on him, doing very little damage if any, and weaving out of the way of a few strikes is a hell of alot better than “auto lock on, F1, target eleminated”.
Some of you say that “no one wants to be the sheep”. Well WoW makes you a sheep that can become a wolf. I “paid to be a sheep” because i didn’t want to sit there and mind numbingly raise to the artificial, level based stature of a wolf. I played WoW since beta/stress test, and left quite awhile ago. Games changed alot, but it’s still “grind to be the best… or be absolutely useless to everyone”. DFO will have sheep…but the sheep won’t be based on levels. They will be based on skills, decisions, opportunity, communication, charisma, you know… more human things than “my numbers are of higher numerical value than yours *snort*”. Some “lone wolf” might prey on some traveling wanderer, and based on him POSSIBLY avoiding an attack and saying “DAMN that was close…” the lone wolf might acctually laugh and like the guy. Who knows? Maybe he’ll LOOK like a penniless wanderer and be a great veteran warrior who absolutely hands you your ass in the nicest most respectful way possible. Another possibility you will not find in a game like WoW.
You can assume that people will do nothing but swing virtual sharp or heavy objects at each other, but i tnhe end, you may find that while some will, others will earn each others respect, will find unique and interestings ways to survive, will have fun and laugh about a thrilling chase through the woods and almost getting ganked, or they might even ACCEPT their defeats because they can’t blame it on auto execited number crunching.
August 3rd, 2007 - 05:00
The entire concept of PvP has long since been plagued (as it is here) by the actions done in UO.
Ever since, whenever PvP in any fashion has reared it’s head and the eventual question on a new game’s forums is asked, “Will there be FFA PvP?” it is met with resistance of untold ignorance. The “classic” anti-PvP arguements are brought forward, from the “l33t d3wds” to the tried and tested, “PvP raped my mother, and killed my father…” arguement. Yet further still the people, ignorant as ever, will go on. They tell us to just go play a FPS (it’s the same thing, right?) or better still that games like Shadowbane failed so clearly PvP was to blame since that’s what the game was about.
I haven’t seen a “l33t d3wd” in years. Seriously.
If all I wanted was mindless slaughter then I would go play an FPS. I want more (which is consequently the problem with most of the current MMOs…all they give you is mindless slaughter).
Whether or not a game is PvP oriented, PvE oriented, or PvZ oriented if the game is a buggy pile of garbage no one will want to play it. If the devs on a game make the game into a pile of garbage then people will quit that game.
I have a question for you Jessica Mulligan:
If non-consensual PvP drives more players away than consensual PvP why are there so many populated PvP servers in WOW? Clearly there is an option for a purely 100% consensual PvP, yet the PvP servers do quite well despite them offering non-consensual PvP? I mean “by experience” this should be entirely false, and the PvP servers should barely be needed no? Or is this more of your usual anti-PvP preaching? What did we do to you in UO to scar you so lol…
On a lasting note, I completely agree with the hero comment in the Warcry article.
Heroes do not sit and cry and whine about getting killed.
Heroes do not whine on forums and out of the game trying to influence the devs to change the game.
Heroes do not give up and go seeking magically coded barriers and “factions” to be safe.
Heroes do not beg for their items back.
Heroes do not attempt to barter for their lives in the face of danger.
Heroes do not ignore the call for help because they may be at risk.
Heroes do not exalt in their meaningless tasks.
Heroes do not do not use cheap words as a substitute for action.
Heroes do not give up in the face of adversity.
Any scripted bot or programmed character can defeat the silly AI creatures in any game. The gold farmers will tell you that.
Any player can stand up in the face of adversity and danger of the notorious player killers of a game.
The only thing stopping them is themselves.
August 3rd, 2007 - 09:08
I see two basic options in MMOs that directly reflect real life.
1) You can have a happy life and acheive a good deal, but you have very little choice and are given a specific path to follow.
2) You MAY have a great time, or you MAY suffer. However, in either case you have complete control over your fate and what choices you make.
Many people currently choose option one, simply because they want to hit the max level, they want uber armor and such. They don’t really care that the developers don’t let them do whatever they want and restrict them to a very linear progression.
Others would rather decide for ourselves what we should do. While I love PvP, I definately don’t need it. I just can’t stand being restricted to only attack who the developers think I should. Or to only choose configurations (classes) that the developers make available to me.
If you are content to follow a preset path in online worls, then go ahead. I for one would rather choose my progression myself.
August 3rd, 2007 - 10:44
PvP in Darkfall will not be the mayhem many expect it to be, this is for several reasons:
A) For every greifer out there, there is at least one person who despises greifers and will go out of his way to greif a greifer in order to deal justice, these are anti-PKs and will be more common than you think. Greifers are the great minority even in the hardcore PvP community reguardless of all of the internet tough guy acts in the Darkfall forums.
B) In Darkfall, a fresh noob will supposedly have 100HP while a seasoned veteren supposedly gets to around 200HP max. This allows small groups of newbies to defeat more powerful greifers, which will make ganking noob hangouts a group affair. Greifers gathering in groups attract anti PKs, therein is the paradox of ganking in a balanced environment. Yes, most noobs will be ganked several times, but few will be chain ganked into oblivion.
C) Allignment, killing too much of your own race makes you red which in turn gives your race incentive to kill you (positive allignment boost) and makes guards aggressive, which will disallow the use of major cities to you. So while you might see a Human sneak into Alfar or Ork noob zones to gank, a human will rarely sit and gank human newbies because it’s a waste of allignment, there is no reward and a signifigant penalty.
D) The world is huge. Touching back on what I just said, it is very doubtful that a Human will sit around in Human territory to kill noobs because if you’re going to kill the same race and take the allignment hit you might as well be getting a reward for it. This does not hold true for other races, who give positive allignment upon killing them. But this is mitigated by the fact that the gameworld is supposedly the size of Germany. Very few people will walk out into enemy territory simply for a few cheap kills and lulz, and large groups of gankers draw lots of attention which means that enemy anti-PKs will be heading out to nail em and send them back to Mercia or wherever they came from.
E) Full loot. Why kill a noob who will drop essentially nothing due to being in the equivilant of Planetside’s spawn pajama armour when he has the chance to group up with other noobs and taking your full steel plate and sword of deflowering 2? Risk V.S. Reward applies even in an FFAPVP environment.
Greifers may be a great many things, but very few of them are outright stupid. When you stack up all of the penalties and risks of noob ganking (allignment hits, risk of losing gear, getting camped by anti PKs, ect, ect) verses the rewards of noob ganking (hate tells), you quickly see just why ganking for the sake of ganking simply isn’t a wise choice in DFO based on the information available. PKing might be profitable, but PKing implies that you are killing someone who does have a chance, and will be carrying decent equipent and some money unlike a noob.
August 3rd, 2007 - 11:46
Well said, Kilmoran.
I like to consider myself a hardcore PvP’er. That doesn’t mean I’m an uber leet PK God either. In fact I tend to lose more fights than I win. Makes winning all the more sweet if you ask me. It’s fighting I love more than the winning though. The actual conflict, win or lose, is where the rush comes from.
I also find social interaction in the PvP games I’ve played to be much better than in any of the PvE games I’ve played. In Shadowbane… for all of it’s issues… it’s the social aspect that keeps me coming back. I want to support the people I play with, my guild, and I actually start to miss them when I’ve been away for while. In EQ way back when the extent of my guild’s social interactions was BSin’ in /gu chat. Other than that the vast majority of my adventures were solo.
I see alot of people posting about how the evil PK’ers ultimately ruined it for themselves in UO and other games by chasing off everyone else. “Damnit man! All I want to do is crawl this dungeon in peace!” Didn’t you know the game allowed other players to attack you at will when you started playing it? If so why weren’t you prepared for that inevitable encounter, at least mentally? That’s what really boggles MY mind.
Finally back to what Kilmoran wrote. It really seems like the vast majority of people only know of DFO as a FFA PvP title that has been in development for way too long. Hopefully Kil’s very informative post will prompt some of you to do some more indepth research of your own rather than simply form half informed opinions.
August 3rd, 2007 - 13:02
Great responses. The first years of darktide really disprove many of the fears implied here as many non PK guilds survived and thrived until the XP chain exploits took hold. It was a blast to play, never really felt like much of a grind and the player politics were as immersive as it gets.
I think many of you miss the point.. this isnt 1997-8. There are so many players to fill each niche.. that games like Darkfall (assuming it actually releases.. ) will have plenty of consumers.
August 3rd, 2007 - 14:18
“Well it is tough luck when an industry fails certain consumers. I don’t know why you’re so smug about the fact that a solid base of gamers have been neglected. Enjoy the glory of the Uwe Boll-esque quality of games like Vanguard, while I have nothing to play. Winrar!”
I agree.
What company out there wants my dollar? Clearly, no one at the moment. And no one gets my dollar.
Only one on the horizon? Darkfall. And that’s a real shame for this industry at the moment. Whether Darkfall is eventually a success or failure, Darkfall is a good thing for this industry.
August 3rd, 2007 - 17:54
“The same crap from the same naysers over and over again. Freedom to do what you want is key. Not the false “freedom” that other devs spew from their pie wholes. Not everyone is a “hero” in an MMO or in the world, so why center the game around a bunch of people who cant achieve at life and therefor must have a virtual world to achieve. Leave the low lifes with WoW and allow those of us who want to play a fun game have Darkfall.”
Brandulfr, you are a complete moron. I have known quite a few hard core pvpers, and they are mostly people who still live with mommy and daddy and drive POS cars, or they have a one bedroom apartment that they use solely for the purpose of engaging in their online fantasies and eating pizza. It’s pricks like you who don’t have a life. I’m a programmer and I’d bet my left testicle that I make at least 40k a year more than you. And I didn’t get where i am by living in an online fantasy…I get up and go to work every day. I have a life. and I manage to play some online games when I have spare time. I would gladly compare my achievements to yours any time.
August 3rd, 2007 - 21:05
Everyone knows that all internet d00ds who are “A programmer making more money than you LoL!” are really 16 yera olds who took a highschool class in programming.
And as your the one bedroom apartment thing, most of the truly hardcore PvPers following DFO are mid 20’s middle americans who own land. But who’s counting right? Why dont you just go back to “programming” and leave the games discussion to us losers living in studio apartments.
August 3rd, 2007 - 21:53
on August 3, 2007 at 11:46 am Ulcis wrote:
“I see alot of people posting about how the evil PK’ers ultimately ruined it for themselves in UO and other games by chasing off everyone else. “Damnit man! All I want to do is crawl this dungeon in peace!” Didn’t you know the game allowed other players to attack you at will when you started playing it? If so why weren’t you prepared for that inevitable encounter, at least mentally? That’s what really boggles MY mind.”
_What boggles my mind, Ulcis, is that although you’ve probably read the article that this comes from:
“Amazingly for Ultima Online, and in retrospect thankfully for the health of the industry, many paid for quite a while. Much of this was because it really was the only game in town.”
you apparently still haven’t gotten some of the key points:
1.) UO was practically the only game in town, so far as a graphical MMORPG went. It was, in fact, the only one that most people had ever heard of.
2.) To answer your question, no, a lot of people who bought it (like the girlfriend who bought it for me as a college graduation present) had no idea that UO was FULL of the kind of crap that Osium, apparent guild leader of TheMercs, clearly states in a post from (ironically enough) the Darkfall Online General Discussion Forum:
“UO The PK Paradise.
When UO beta started in summer ’97 it was unlike anything anyone else had ever seen before. Sure there had been NwN and DSO and M59 but these were small scale and ultimately they were just not comparable. It was total fuckin’ mayhem, PK guilds roamed the countryside killing everyone and everything. Inner Circle, ToC and TheMercs were big PK guilds in beta. We would sit outside Trinsic and slay everything. Then there was the utterly hilarious and highly publicized “Moongate Massacre” a story unto itself. Heading into retail, these guilds went to separate servers, but we were no longer alone, the growing number of pkilling guilds was staggering. On any server you went to you had “Those guys”, the guys you just didn’t frack with period cause they were a whole lot of bad news. Those of you paying attention are noticing a trend. You had two styles of player, Wolves and Sheep. The Wolves grew, previous sheep realized they too were wolves and cast off their fuzzy outerwear to become killers like us, Covetous Crew is just such an example.
UO The Wild Wild West.
UO fit every possible connotation the wild wild west can conjure, with the exception of bad teeth and six shooters. Anything went, exploitation, bugs, you name it and it was just part of the learning curve. While the number of Wolves began to grow, so too did the number of Sheep. The relentless murder of these people just never ended, for the killer, this was great. We’ve never had it as good as those early days, and we never will again.
UO The Education.
UO was an education, for players and developers. The collective pent up frustration from the millions of people murdered in UO had to be released somewhere, that somewhere was called Everquest. Developers attribute UO’s early success directly to the fact it was the only game of its kind. It had no competition. People had no choice.”
I think Osium drescribes the history pretty well. To sum up:
1.) Yes Ulcis, a lot of people who bought the game and tried to play just wanted to do something like what they did in their tabletop AD&D games. Some of them actually wanted to roleplay within the Ultima series backstory.
2.) Many folks who bought the game (for themselves, their friends or their kids) had no idea that other players could slaughter you at will, loot everything you owned, then curse your ghost for S&G’s. I’m quite sure most of them had no idea of what Osium descibed, and what Lum makes clear here: http://brokentoys.org/2004/12/18/the-unbearable-darkness-of-ultima-online/
3.) Even if they did, UO was the only game in town. You wanted to play an MMORPG? You were stuck with UO. Despite that fact, UO still hemmoraged players like an aterial wound showering blood…so much so that Raph Koster kept trying different systems to bring things under control without using a PK switch.
4.) When Everquest did hit the scene, a lot of people who indeed “Damnit man! All I want to do is crawl this dungeon in peace!” flocked to it, despite the fact that EQ was a black hole of painful grinding so bad that you could literally get housework done while resting to get your hit points back, because it had the PK switch. By cancelling their UO account and playing in EQ, they gave a big middle finger to the PKers, bug-exploiters and other griefers who had ruined their gaming experience, leaving the rest of UO to continue in Sim Lord of the Flies. Despite the impact Dark Age of Camelot, an excellent game with RvR, had on EQ’s population numbers, EQ remained the biggest Western MMORPG until the “NINE MILLION PLAYERS” monster that is WoW arrived.
5.) So yeah, “PK’ers ultimately ruined it for themselves in UO and other games by chasing off everyone else.” You betcha.
Will Darkfall finally be the holy grail of PvP? Will it even get published? Who knows? I know this, just as lots of the “old-school” PKers from UO have never forgotten the pre-Trammel days, neither will millions of players who quit UO because they
“want to do is crawl this dungeon in peace!” … which is why I think you can count on them to stay away from Darkfall.
August 3rd, 2007 - 22:40
From the Warcry developer blog, “Written by Tasos Flambouras (Ass. Producer, Darkfall).”
Yes, I know they’re known semi-colloquially as “ass prods” but I don’t think I’d willingly advertise that.
Hahahahahahahah. Vaporware. They have no publisher and only lunatic Internet mandate. They will never ship.
August 3rd, 2007 - 22:45
And as for those folks who will post and complain that my statement “PKers, bug-exploiters and other griefers who had ruined their gaming experience, leaving the rest of UO to continue in Sim Lord of the Flies.” is untrue or overblown, allow me to quote from the Games Politics Forums:
“georox07-08-2007, 04:52 PM
I was one hell of a griefer on Ultima Online. I’d lure people to places, open gates next to moongates that led inside my house as 20 of my friend mages would tear them a few new ones, we’d loot em dry, ban em from house, so on. I’d scam to. Hardcore. Looking back on things, I was a complete asshole on Ultima Online, those where the days. I’m a lot better on other MMOs, guess its just how the community works and the people I played with.”
Thanks to guys like the above, if Darkfall Online is released, it will wind up very much a niche game, despite the best intentions of the hardcore PvPers who very much don’t intend to grief. The 3% who do make it their life’s work to ruin wide-open games for other people have a negative impact on player retention FAR greater than their actual numbers.
If you Darkfall guys want to prevent that, you’re going to have to somehow find a way to make Raph Koster’s failed hope of “player policing” actually work.
Good luck, y’all….
August 4th, 2007 - 02:09
Also.. for those people who out right assaulted Red Morgan because he spoke of people paying to be heroes, i’d like to bring this to Light.
Not one person in WoW is a Hero. No one? Why? Because your all equal. There are people who stand out ,and are more reknown and such, but “hero” is a strong term for a champion of the sports like PVP of WoW. You don’t go on an “adventure” .. you go on a plot line that’s laid out ofr your i na very specific and linear way. Oh yes, you can go to different areas..but if you aren’t “this level through this level” you cna’t do them, thus you only have a handful (Well in WoW’s case..quite a few) quests to choose form, most of which have nothing to do with anything.
At the end of the day, your sitting atop your flying mount with your level 70 gear….right next to everyone else atop their flying mounts in their level 70 gear. You aren’t a hero, your the end of the road. You wait for more content, or repeat content you’ve already done. You PVP for absolutely no real reason. You don’t do anything for anyone buy yourself or your guild, and the latter is barely covered.
I don’t pay for a game to be the hero. I pay for the game to hopefully be individual or make an impact, what ever that becomes should be up to me. Notorious, Praised, completely unknown… while i can get all of those in WoW to an extent, they are all meaningless in games such as that. Heroes are rememberd and known for their actions, not the time they spent doing the same thing to get gear that is designed for you to get. Hell, if I ever had a Hero in WoW….someone i looked up to, it would be someone beating down the people with gear, with pretty mcuh standard gear and nothing but guts and uncanny skill. Still yet, my adoration would be mild if that much, because he would only be the master of nerds, willing to dedicate his life to macro keyed combat and memorization of class abilities and build counters.
If you play and pay for WoW to be a “hero” … i feel very sorry for what you feel is worthy of being called a hero. A hero shouldn’ be someone you can count amongst millions of others.
August 4th, 2007 - 02:17
“The 3% who do make it their life’s work to ruin wide-open games for other people have a negative impact on player retention FAR greater than their actual numbers.
If you Darkfall guys want to prevent that, you’re going to have to somehow find a way to make Raph Koster’s failed hope of “player policing” actually work.
Good luck, y’all….”
WoW has griefers that do nothing but waste their time getting cheap laughs off the weak. It may not be as flexible, but see that’s a double edged sword. No, you cna’t trick people into portal to get gand raped in a house in WoW… but you can make it so that they cannot possibly do anything to stop you period in any way shape or form besides waiting for someone high enough to assist them. Atleast in the case of DFO… if your tricked or ganged, it’s generally because of your own decisinos or bad luck. You can possibly survive it though, where as in WoW there is no hope but to be somewhere else or to wait for someone to help you. YOU can’t fix your own problems.
August 4th, 2007 - 10:48
I’m getting a horrid sense of deja vu here. This is the Shadowbane experience all over again: A bunch of people who have never played the game – because it isn’t available yet to anyone but the developers – are extolling it’s virtues based completely on statements by the developers. The paeans would have one believe that the game will be so good that it will deliver prostitutes to the very door of the noble players wise enough to subscribe.
One wonders; will the disappointment at the launch of Darkfall be of similar proportions to Shadowbane? Will the delivery be high-class call girls or $20 a pop skanks?
Only time will tell but, based on history, I’m leaning more towards Andy Jackson than Bill McKinley.
August 4th, 2007 - 11:09
on August 4, 2007 at 2:09 am Kilmoran wrote:
___________________________________
“Not one person in WoW is a Hero. No one? Why? Because your all equal. There are people who stand out ,and are more reknown and such, but “hero” is a strong term for a champion of the sports like PVP of WoW”
Dude, I’m supposed to become a hero? Damn, I just thought I was logging onto these new-fangled MMORPG’s to have…I dunno, fun. Crap. If I’m supposed to go become a real hero, I’d better get my spreading duff off of this chair, out from in front of the computer and go volunteer my time to a worthy cause and be a real hero!
In all seriousness, my heroes are not professional sports players. And they’re not members of the fighting 101st keyboardests either, regardless of how hardcore they may be. My standards for heroes are a little higher. I’ll log into these games (in the rare spare time that I have) to have fun. If I want to be a real hero, I’ll spend lots of time with my family being a good husband and a damn good father. In my obviously not so humble opinion, the world needs more focus on real heroes and less focus and overpaid sport jocks.
August 4th, 2007 - 17:13
Shadowbane had a publisher. And lasted at least two months before the shine wore off and the uberguilds disbanded.
Yeah, assuming Darkfall will ship (it won’t) then that’s probably a fair standard to hold it to. As for the fans, the vague ideas in their head are without a doubt going to be more appealing than anything Darkfall’s creators could make. If they don’t cause mass orgasmic reactions on the first day of beta, they’re sunk, and a lot of people will be humiliated.
August 4th, 2007 - 17:47
Darkfall is much like pursuing a dream. It might or might not be real someday, but its better than the alternative of denying this niche as anything more than a dying hope, a rogue developer’s intricate fantasy and nothing more.
The golden years of UO are fresher in my mind than years of EQ-esque gameplay that have been the trend of this decade.
August 4th, 2007 - 20:18
Dude. I was there for Shadowbane. Trust me when I say, it’s only good before it ships. The sudden stop at the end sucks worse than any nightmare, and you’ll spend a long time thereafter trying to brush off the association.
August 4th, 2007 - 22:41
You all just wait and see, Darkfall will be released, and when it comes.. IT WILL FUCKING PWN.
All who are saying the pvp system wont work are just afraid of getting assraped by a skilful player. And those who quote this and tries to prove it wrong are just the persons i’m talking about.
“I’m not looking for a game, i’m looking for a world”
August 5th, 2007 - 03:40
I was there for SB too, from the beginning of Chaos to the end of Entropy. 90% of the time it was a total drag to play, but those golden moments were what counted for me. I’d rather be playing a shitfest like Shadowbane then face the polished grind to maxlevel and the endless dungeon crawls for epic loot.
If you’re right, what will become of the MMO industry? A market doomed to tunnel-visioned developers and assembly line games? Another console sports market? We need epic designs and epic design failures to keep the status quo in check and the perspective balanced.
August 5th, 2007 - 12:49
Ok.. reading through this has shown me that most of the negative feedback on Darkfall is from people who know nothing about the game itself.. good job. For one thing Darkfall will not just appeal to “Hardcore PvP’ers”. If Darkfall lives up to what it says it will have a extensive crafting system giving people *and there are ALOT of said people* the ability to craft and merchant. They can stay inside the safety of the main cities and should those cities fall under attack there are BANKS to store valuables in that cannot be looted. Lets look at the PvP wolf and sheep analogy shall we. While WoW does not allow you to lose anything when being pk’d it does allow for camping in the extreme and super high level players coming by and one hit killing you. They still have tons of players and they practically force you to move into an open pvp area by making most areas level 25 contested.
Next lets look at the full loot supposed turnoff of the game. It has been officially announced that armor and weapons WILL NOT severely impact the power of your character. Developing skills and player skill will be the main determining factors. Yes thats right that means that when you use spears alot.. and you get killed and they steal your uber flaming spear of doom you can go to your local blacksmith and buy a regular old steel spear and still be a very deadly force. It also has an extensive race based player killing system. Ally killing will turn you into guard dog food and enemy killing will get you rewarded but there is a catch. With an advertised scaled landmass the size of Germany it would be very out of the way to be Mahirim *a wolf-like race in the game* and travel allllllll the way to the human territory just to kill some frail humans. If you do make the trip you can expect to be hunted like a dog by the humans and to die.. and get fully looted then you will either ressurect in a nearby ressurection location *This mechanic is unknown to me* or be spawn back in your home territory. If you happen to ressurect close by.. guess what your an enemy the city guards kill you on sight.. so no weapons and armor for you!
Next lets look at the newb friendly factor of the game. You start off in home territory surrounded by allies. Remember folks killing an ally will quickly turn you into guard food which means.. no armor.. no weapons.. yeah your an awsome pk’er naked. You start up learn the basics go out killing your skills level up you get better earn some gold equip your self with some nicer armor even if the effects are minimal. Since the pvp in this game is the way it is.. most people will be sticking together instead of soloing which is the obvious thing to do. And if you are in a gank situation and you get killed big deal.. monsters are full drop too. Go out with some cheap armor and kill a monster or two and your back in action. Even further guilds have a ONE MILLION slot limit to players allowed in. They will always be wanting new players to expand their power in either military fodder.. craftsman.. sailors… businessmen… political men.. so I can guarantee the “no noobs allowed” policy will only apply to a select few guilds.
Now lets look at the I keep getting wtf pwned in pvp. Darkfall pvp is not focused on single player fighting. Sure there will be some one on one action and like any other game that doesn’t completely rely on gear… the more skilled opponent will win. The game will give you plenty of ways to run and hide. In trees behind rocks.. in tall grass. The combat is contact based.. so while your running there won’t be you running behind a corner and all of a sudden that fireball that was on your tail turns the corner and kills you. They can pot shot you as you run.. but hitting a moving target is skills based.. if they are good they will hit you possibly kill you if not.. you’ll get away. Theres also the added feature of stamina. Running after you opponent spamming the attack button won’t be too intelligent. You will need to catch them.. and back them into a corner to guarantee the kill. Guilds also come into play here.. obviously you will be with a guild that is of the same race or alliance as you meaning help will arrive. This is not going to be a game where one guy can take on four people at once and beat the crap outta them. Numbers will matter.. common sense will be needed.. this game will focus on the big picture and the pvp worth doing will come in sieges and guilds warring against each other over lands and towns.
Next aspect to focus on Role-Playing. This game will draw the role-playing crowd to it. They will be fairly safe staying in their main city and have a multitude of options to role-play as much as they want. With a crafting system that allows for new items to be made BY players there is no end to the possibilities of the roleplaying you can do. Being able to customize armor with color.. what material its made from and how it functions can play into alot of role-playing that other games only dream of for now *mmo-wise*.
This game will have a multitude of players and not just the orgasms from killing you players. You will see role-players, merchants, crafters, political leaders, pvp’ers, city builders, and oddly enough a large amount of people who want an online game that they can literally explore. I hope this gives alot of you a better vision of what this game should be and is said to be. Whether it lives up to its word is beyond me.. but if it does this is how it will be. To the rest of you.. please.. please research the game a little before you jump to conclusions some of the things you say are agreeable and some of the things you say are downright retarded.
August 5th, 2007 - 14:32
Ok.. reading through this has shown me that most of the negative feedback on Darkfall is from people who know nothing about the game itself.. good job.
I know it’s been kicking around for about seven years now, the team has no publisher and no clear means to even support it, and constantly pushes back its beta testing. That’s more than enough to connect the dots. The fact that its design sounds like the holy grail makes it more likely to remain just as intangible and unrealized — or, if by some miracle it is realized, it won’t be what you or anyone else really wanted.
If you’re right, what will become of the MMO industry? A market doomed to tunnel-visioned developers and assembly line games? Another console sports market? We need epic designs and epic design failures to keep the status quo in check and the perspective balanced.
We already have both. Millions are being spent all the time on projects that never see the light of day, because they’re canceled internally. Occasionally, they even get out the door, like Auto Assault. Darkfall’s just a bit of the yeasty leavings from the great design brew vat that spilled on the grating and fights from trickling down the drain.
In conclusion, just because you think you want it, doesn’t make you any more deserving of what you get. Unless it’s nothing, and then you can thank heaven that’s all you got.
August 5th, 2007 - 17:37
Well said Delvonshi. Totaly agree with you.
August 5th, 2007 - 18:34
“the team has no publisher and no clear means to even support it”
from DF developer journal: “One big internal debate for example is whether we publish this game ourselves or if we agree to work with one of several publishers, or accept a number of compromises between the two, based on business model, territory and a number of other factors that need to be carefully weighed. We’re prepared for any eventuality, and we do have several options but the final decision is critical.”
avertunine is a detachment from a larger company (or something similar) and seems they have enough funds to publish the game on their own, i can’t say it for sure and you can’t say it is not true but developer’s words counts for sure more then ours.
in conclusion as delvonshi already said :”please research the game a little before you jump to conclusions some of the things you say are agreeable and some of the things you say are downright retarded.”
August 5th, 2007 - 19:19
Unless the company is a “detachment” from a company that is an established game publisher, that makes no difference. Distribution, customer support and billing are not typical functions of a game developer, but they are essential, especially for the kind of game they want to make. This isn’t about just having money, it’s the business acumen and wherewithal to make money and sustain the organization necessary for this sort of enterprise.
I already did the research.
Developer words and intentions are only valuable for the sake of tripping them up later, after their best laid plans go awry. Until they deliver the game and you can play it, they are merely words. And my assertion still stands. We’ll see who’s wrong eventually.
Please note that nothing about my criticisms has anything to do with the intended design. Surely the die-hard fans of this game realize that for the latest attempt at this sort of game to work, everything has to be firing on all cylinders. The margin for error is very, very low.
August 5th, 2007 - 19:53
“merely words” indeed…as ours! this is what i was tryin to say, why all this criticisms? the discussion was on the pvp contents of the game, i see no reason to debate on if and when the game is coming out but just if it will have success or not/is good to move away from grindgames/etc, and if the game is comin out or not we are the last who can tell it…well i wanted to write somthin more but i forgot what…here is gettin late an i’m spleepy:P
sorry for bad enghlish,g.night:D
August 6th, 2007 - 00:09
The developers of this game are spending time on making sure when this game comes out in beta it will be as close to a finished product as can be. The beta will let all those players discover and abuse the exploits they missed thereby allowing them to be corrected. When and if the game launches all these fans WILL buy a copy and at least 75% of what we’ve been told is easily possible and if 75% of it is in the game more than likely I and others will buy that next month and you know what will happen with all that money from the subscriptions.. The developers have shown that they have a solid ideal for the game and are working to make that ideal a reality. I have no doubt that any features missing will be added or changed for fairness.
WoW’s problem.. their most major of problems is that they listen to the community too much. OMG L337M@N pwned me this is not what I was promised! NERF NERF! So what does WoW do.. they nerf it. Hell if anything is PROOF of this its rogues.. Back on topic.. the developers have shown in their responses they do not want to handle customers in this way. They want the game to be fun and fair while still holding the exact ideal they put forth. Its a hard as hell task to get this but the games been in development for 7 years. And another game followed the same way.. Morrowind.. and come to think of it.. the two sound awfully alike :O.
Alot of people have just given up hope of anything besides a cookie cutter korean mmo or a EQ clone. The games that have tried this route.. some have been pretty successful.. and others have failed.. mostly due to poor execution and bugs to the extreme. If they have several offers from publishers it means that they have a business model that is feasable and will make money.. publishers don’t tend to jump the gun on risky models.
And as a final note WoW only had 3 releases of what it would be like before it came out.. Darkfall is up to 4. Its not so much that I am at the point where OMG SOMETHING SOMEWHERE SAVE ME.. its more that Darkfall has more than enough showing it will be on the scene and doing what it claims to do.
August 6th, 2007 - 03:04
Morrowind was made by an experienced development company. It was in fact the third in a series.
If a MMO is only 75 percent complete, that 25 percent will likely drag it down for the rest of its life, as its player base adapts to the incompleteness and becomes increasingly incapable of coping with the unmaking and remaking required to add to the existing game world post-launch.
You are spouting well-rehearsed rhetoric, backed up by best intentions and thin hopes. Darkfall’s developers have given you nothing more than promises that you want to believe just because you think you want it, so very badly, and for no other reason than that.
Stow the proselytizing. If Darkfall was really that great, it wouldn’t need the likes of you to defend it. All I did was warn you, based on the benefit of my experience. These are the good times right now, before anything must be proven. When the proof comes, the dreams go away.
We’ll all be watching to see what happens. When it does, we’ll see who was right.
August 6th, 2007 - 09:59
“Dude, I’m supposed to become a hero? Damn, I just thought I was logging onto these new-fangled MMORPG’s to have…I dunno, fun. Crap. If I’m supposed to go become a real hero, I’d better get my spreading duff off of this chair, out from in front of the computer and go volunteer my time to a worthy cause and be a real hero!
In all seriousness, my heroes are not professional sports players. And they’re not members of the fighting 101st keyboardests either, regardless of how hardcore they may be. My standards for heroes are a little higher. I’ll log into these games (in the rare spare time that I have) to have fun. If I want to be a real hero, I’ll spend lots of time with my family being a good husband and a damn good father. In my obviously not so humble opinion, the world needs more focus on real heroes and less focus and overpaid sport jocks.”
Glad you understand my point even if you decided to change it to me being wrong. Even though i used a video game as a reference to someone else saying “we should be heroes if we are paying”, my point was exactly your point, a hero is based on their actions more than the appearance and the “right” they have to the title. You should be easily able to extropolate that to your point.
August 6th, 2007 - 10:04
“I’m getting a horrid sense of deja vu here. This is the Shadowbane experience all over again: A bunch of people who have never played the game – because it isn’t available yet to anyone but the developers – are extolling it’s virtues based completely on statements by the developers. The paeans would have one believe that the game will be so good that it will deliver prostitutes to the very door of the noble players wise enough to subscribe.”
Yes your right, alot of us people who follow darkfall are using the ideals as reference against the MMORPG standards. I’d much rather think of what could be than not have fun in what is. Been doing it most my life (While keeping track of what is mind you) and is why i have certain talents i am growing in college to the very end we debate, to bring ideas and entertainment back to the forefront of the gaming industry (if possible in the industry at the time i’m able to contribute). Hopeful, absolutely, but so is every future job oriented goal that you care about.
August 6th, 2007 - 11:20
PVP was once considered the acronym for Player-vs-Player combat. Now perhaps the issue is that players are considering PVP as an illusionary term to describe what that want when confronting other players in combat online. All situations where you pit yourself against another live player in a competitive situation it’s considered PVP. Now how you describe hard-core PVP in this blog isn’t a matter of an undesirable situation, rather a condition of someone who has dedicated themselves to perfecting whatever playstyle suits their needs. This competitive player will want to be the “best” and in doing so creates an archetype for other players to base their skill level and enjoyment factor on.
Just to establish a foundation for my beliefs in this issue I will say that I was once one of those hard-core Ultima Online players on Catskills server back when it kicked off. I wasn’t the most skilled player nor was I the best at single PVP. So in order to be good at what I did, I specialized in certain skills that supported a team, rather then myself. Back when Origin gave you 700 skill points to gain, it could truely limit a players capabilities. So I found likeminded hunters who enjoyed setting ambushes and chasing down miners just for the enjoyment of it. As a team we were better than any single player could be, so in return, the situation required others to unite to be better than we were. In time, people left and situations change, noone will be on top forever. I still remember those fights and that game as one of the most enjoyable ever.
To move on to the next best PVP game on the market, in my opinion, would be Eve Online. Single corporations used to dominate the game in 2003. I was part of a pirate corporation on release day for nearly a year. Nothing really worked right in the game mechanics but it was still incredible to lose everything and fight your way back to the top. I still play Eve to this day, I’ve seen Alliances formed, Alliances fall and things change. BoB set a milestone in the last two years, accomplishing the largest empire seen in Eve yet, but there are other alliances out there destroying their empire piece by piece. Promoting competition is a sure way of keeping the game fresh and interesting.
Darkfall has the potential of being most open-ended PVP game being released in gaming history. Beyond the crys of vaporware and beta, most hard-core PVP players are already forming alliances in preparation for Darkfalls release. Single players or small guilds will find themselves outmatched within a year for competitive PVP. So they will adapt and overcome if they truely enjoy the game, otherwise they will quit the game because it doesnt fit their playstyle. If every game released catered to everyone. There would only be one game ever released. Darkfall provides a unique oppertunity for a player to be “skilled”. Twitch combat, similar to Mount and Blade allow the few to fight the many. If I can’t beat you, Ill call my guild, if we can’t beat you Ill call my alliance. One way or another a hard-core PVP player is going to try to win. If they can’t win, they will go back to the drawing board and figure out a tactic that works. That is what makes a player hard-core or not, figuring out what works to beat you, and using it. If you made it this far in my spiel, congratulations. Love ya.
August 6th, 2007 - 11:23
” … you get killed and they steal your uber flaming spear of doom you can go to your local blacksmith and buy a regular old steel spear and still be a very deadly force.”
So being recently dead and nekkid won’t stop you from being a very deadly force.
… killing an ally will quickly turn you into guard food which means.. no armor.. no weapons.. yeah your an awsome pk’er naked.”
So being recently dead and nekkid will stop you from being a very deadly force.
August 6th, 2007 - 11:25
I think Tasos is onto something when he writes that;
“So we can keep blaming players for design and technology shortcomings and instantly labeling – (therefore limiting) games trying to cater to a wider audience as “hardcore”. But how is that progressive?”
I remember playing WoW for the first time with a friend he yelled;
“How do I win this game ?”
Not the most serious at the time, he still raised an interresting question.
How do you win a MMO ?
Does level 70 and epix make you a winner ? For some perhaps but other would say that to be able successfully achiving a common goal with friends (virtual or not) or the thrill of emersing yourself in a story.
I belive false limitations in a MMO for the sake of game balance is bad for MMOs. If the game is designed right, there will be no need for tuning. The players themselves will be the “tuning” device.
If DF implement their “freedom but with concequence” approach to PvP, they is taking a big step towards the freedom we really want and stepping away from the limits we thought we wanted. I belive it is a step in the right direction.
August 6th, 2007 - 12:29
on August 6, 2007 at 11:23 am JJC wrote:
” … you get killed and they steal your uber flaming spear of doom you can go to your local blacksmith and buy a regular old steel spear and still be a very deadly force.”
So being recently dead and nekkid won’t stop you from being a very deadly force.
Xris: Well, you are not nekkid anymore after you have visited the blacksmith and bought your armor and weapons. Thus Loosing your uberweapon will not hurt you as much you might fear.
… killing an ally will quickly turn you into guard food which means.. no armor.. no weapons.. yeah your an awsome pk’er naked.”
So being recently dead and nekkid will stop you from being a very deadly force.
Xris: Aye, because the blacksmith is kicking your a** instead of selling you stuff, you stay dead, nekkid or both.