Everyone’s Got A List


Someone forwarded me this list of OMG MMO NIRVANA feature sets. While this entire list can be succinctly summarized as “Stuff hardcore players say they want in theory, and no one really does in practice”, I thought it’d be an interesting thought experiment to run through each one and give my thoughts. Feel free to agree, disagree, or call me a clueless n00b in the commentary.

A 100% player-driven economy. NO npcs, except for possibly quest npcs, though only on a very limited basis.

My initial instinctual response: “Oh, HELL no.” To a degree, Asheron’s Call 2, and especially Star Wars Galaxies went down this path, and it just doesn’t work very well until the very top tier of the economy. After the first month of SWG, no one really wanted to sell CDEF pistols any more. You need an NPC backbone to the economy for people to travel to that top tier, and you need NPC buyers to establish a floor of inherent value for in-game items. World of Warcraft gets this almost exactly right: the first few days of gameplay, players deal exclusively through NPCs, then are weaned to the player market gradually, until after a month they play the player-run auction house exclusively.

So, player-driven economy, yes! 100% player-driven economy, no! Extremism in the defense of economy is, actually, a vice.

A Dynamic landscape. The lands that the game takes place in MUST BE ABLE TO CHANGE EASILY. Trees must be able to be cut down, rocks must be able to be moved, and the landscape must be able to display damage. (from say, dragon fire or cannon shot)

The land must follow real-world physics and cycles, and must be affected by them. When it rains, rivers and lakes rise. It becomes more difficult to walk on bare land, as it becomes slippery and muddy. When it snows, the rivers and lakes freeze (or CAN freeze) allowing characters to walk on their surfaces. After rain, fog must form above bodies of water, limiting visibility. Lightning must be able to strike tries and tall buildings, as well as characters (though the chance can be obviously low). 

Sure, if your engine can support it. Design in the absence of any technical limitations is cool! Also, we should have ponies. Remember – you also want servers and clients that support hundreds of people in close proximity. Smoothly supporting that trumps working ice floes.

That being said, real-world physics, in moderation, can be a cheap and effective way to establish immersion.

Day, Night, Seasons, and other special conditions must have a real impact on characters. In the winter, characters without adequate clothing must slow down and eventually freeze, unless they find a heat source quickly. Rain must lower visibility, as must nightfall. If it rains blood and meteors, characters must be able to be damaged by falling debris.

There should be some sort of natural disasters that can occasionally occur. Volcanos, hail, meteors, earthquakes, etc, that would ruin someone’s day or damage the land and cities.

This sounds like a very grim world. Like Shadowbane. No one ever smiles in Shadowbane. MMOs are SERIOUS BUSINESS. Blood and meteors rain down from the cold, dark sky.

One of the most common comments of why many players didn’t play the Norse Midgard realm in DAOC was that it felt so cold, dark and depressing. I wonder what would have been the reaction, if in addition to the grim world design TOXIC BLOOD FELL FROM THE SKY.

Immersion is great, up to the point where it harms playability. Day/Night cycles are great, until they get in the way. One of the things I *don’t* like about World of Warcraft is its day/night cycles. They mirror reality on the West Coast. Which means that whenever I play WoW, it’s dark. Azeroth is a very dark place to me. Thankfully, the only impact is that it’s not as shiny.

Players must be able to have an effect on the game world. Players must be able to construct buildings anywhere they please, provided they have adequate materials and time, and the ground is reasonably flat, and they have the required skills to do so. Players must be able to chop down trees, haul lumber, and process minerals, etc etc.

 Trees and other living features of the world must grow back over time. The rate that they return is variable, depending on how real the world needs to be. Obviously deforestation is a real problem, but in a fantasy world, perhaps they can be “helped” to grow with magic, or other means.

Buildings must be able to be destroyed. Castle walls must crumble, gates and doors must be able to be bludgeoned inward.

Fire should burn flammable things. Wooden walls are flammable. So are forests. So are people. On the same note, putting out fires should be possible if suitable actions are taken.

Sure, within limits. In Ultima Online you could build wherever you wanted. The inevitable result over time: Sosaria Suburbia, where trolls and ogres roamed forlornly, looking for prey in the middle of tract housing. Which was, actually, pretty funny, but probably not what the world builders had in mind.

That being said, in moderation, player impact on the game world is a good thing – arguably a necessary thing. Players want to feel as though they matter. Placing their stamp on the world is a path to this. The key is in limiting it so it doesn’t overwhelm the entire world.

 Players must be able to form governments and rule themselves. This means that at first, sheer anarchy will rule the world, until reasonable players form powerful guilds and leagues, and begin protecting others, forming a more civilized society. Players with similar views of morality will of course band together naturally, and form the beginnings of good and evil governments. Eventually they will elect officials, or simply claim the right to rule. They will send out tax collectors, to fund the kingdom from the people who are protected by it. None of this must be hard coded into the game. Sheer human personality will make it possible, provided that the game allow such things to occur.

Yes.  Next?

Players must be able to kill each other without game-engine based rules to protect weaker players. Modern society was ruled by the stronger person for years. A game will have to undergo this period also. Weaker players will be forced to either live on their own, and try to hide from the stronger players, or join more powerful guilds and governments, and remain under their protection until they are strong enough to venture out on their own.

BWAAAAHHAAHAHAHAHAheeheeheeHAHAHAHA. (finally breathes.) No. Next?

All skills, abilities, classes, and races must be completely balanced. Without this obvious step in place, a dominant race/class group will immerge based on broken game rules. 

Duh. It’s hard, y0. There’s even a company that is trying to make a business model out of doing it for you. But yeah, lack of balance in a game with PvP is hot death (and arguably so in PvE as well).

There must not be any “random item drops” from slain creatures, unless it is reasonable to assume that the creature would possess such a thing. Receiving a sword from a giant wasp threatens the immersion of the game, but finding a rusted sword on an orc is not unbelievable. However, creatures and players must be able to be skinned, field dressed, and cooked.

When a creature is created with items that can be “looted” from its corpse, the creature uses those items in combat. If there is a possibility of getting a magic sword off an orc, and an orc is spawned that carries one, then that orc should USE that magic sword in combat. 

Yeah, that’s one of my pet peeves, too. (Irrational item drops, not the lack of the ability to be a cannibal.)

Artifact items must be completely unique. Only one instance of each may exist in the game world at any time. Rare items must be rare. Perhaps there are 2-5 instances of a “rare” item for every 1000 players.

Someone didn’t learn the lesson of the Holy Water Sprinkler of Nem’Ankh, I see. Note well: if you make a cool game that is rare, all you are doing is ensuring that your entire playerbase will go literally insane, because they will all insist that they HAVE to have that rare item. Encouraging insanity amongst your playerbase is only good if you’re doing a game on the Cthulhu mythoi. tl;dr version: artifact rarity SUCKS.

No item gained from any creature can be more powerful than the more powerful player created items, except for artifacts and “rare” items.

In other words, “player crafted items should be the most powerful, except for the stuff that’s more powerful.” In this example, the hardest core PvPers will all go find the artifacts, because they’re more powerful. And they’ll resent it, because they have to stop PvPing to do it. And they will hate you. I mean HATE YOU. No. Really. They will hate YOU, personally. Trust me.

The takeaway you should get here is that the player craftables of your game will be the PvP baseline, because they will be the most accessible/least rare items. Balance accordingly, but also remember in general, making items terribly meaningful in a PvP context will cause a lot of resentment and hatred from your PvP playerbase.

Combat must be real time. A “push the button and watch your character engage the enemy” combat system may be required to keep dialup users in sync with the rest of the game world, but it is not realistic. Skill SHOULD play a role in combat, especially against other players. Like any good FPS game, weapons would need to have a short delay after each “firing” based on size and weight and magical bonuses.

Ranged weapons must be able to be fired at will at any place within range of the character using the weapon. A “target” should not be required to fire the weapon. Likewise, melee characters must be able to swing at any time, at any space within the range of their weapons.

Terrain, objects, and other characters should provide cover against physical attacks to some degree. Closed doors ought to block javelins, for instance. On a similar note, some attacks like magic or lasers might just go straight through. Other attacks like arrow volleys could simply arc over the wall to hit their targets. 

Ah, the eternal debate about skill-based vs stats-based combat. And people who believe they have skills, of course, want skills. Hey, everyone raise your hand who’s willing to admit in public they don’t have skills? Just me? Yeah, that looks about right. Guess what – statistical analysis shows 80% of you are lying your asses off.

There are games which have twitch/player skill in PvP combat (Turbine especially favors this design, as seen in AC1 and DDO). They generally aren’t popular, because people find out they don’t like being in the 80% very much.

That being said, auto-attack-and-wait-for-death has its own sin – being boring. Your combat should probably not be boring, especially if it’s what your players are doing constantly. Luckily most modern MMOs punish auto-attack-and-wait-for-death, well, for most players anyway. (guess who’s been levelling up a paladin in WoW! and is so bored out of their mind with it they retreated to Second Life! Uh huh.)

Characters must not be able to walk through other characters, trees, shrubs, rocks, or any other “object” large enough to reasonably halt an average adult.

A noble concept in theory. However, this adds a ton of processor cycles to your server. Is it worth everything cool that you’re going to have to ditch to make that happen? Server processor cycles are not an infinite resource. Server-side collision detection is VERY hard on your server. Client-side collision detection is your game wearing a silky red dress and saying “Hey, big boy, want to code an exploit? No, really. Don’t. I’ll hate it. Ooh.”

Characters must eat. Not eating must cause weakness after several meals are skipped. Likewise, characters must sleep. Going without sleep for some time must cause fatigue.

Yes, everyone *loved* having to regularly eat muffins in Everquest.

I thought we had moved beyond the “punishing your players is cool!” paradigm of game design.

Death must be permanent. Perhaps lower level characters could be able to respawn, until an average level.

You know, this could be a great interview question for a game designer. “Do you think permadeath in a persistent world, giving the customer a dialog box that says “You have lost the game, all your work invested in your character is history, you should stop giving us money now” is a good idea? You do? Thank you for your time, we’ll be in touch.”

 A creature or other player that is able to deal damage to another player must be worth experience to that player. Any creature or player not able to damage another player may be worth no experience.

Bottom feeding is cool! Other then that snark I tend to agree. Of course that experience should be weighted.  Which may approach the theoretical limit of zero based on risk vs reward.  I wonder if this bullet point is just a reaction to some game’s risk vs. reward cycle being broken.

Except for an obvious magical field, the landscape should hold no boundaries, provided that a character has the required skills to “climb” or “swim”, etc. A vast ocean could be unswimable, but boats should exist, crewed by players with the appropriate skills. (and built by other players with the appropriate skills!) A magical field should only be a boundary as a placeholder for further expansion as the game grows.

Um. You do know that these worlds aren’t real, right? That they’re hosted on a game server that has to actually have the content for the world stored somewhere?

I suppose you could just track someone’s X-Y-Z and let them wander off into a THX-1138esque prison of whitespace. That sounds like a lot of fun.

 There must be a player-based resurrection system in place. (for instance, cleric or healer players can resurrect dead players) This helps the permanent death situation.

So, it’s permadeath. Unless you have friends. Sucks for you if you don’t have friends. Wow, I’d sure hate to be a new player in this game.

Once dead, any player can loot your corpse, taking whatever items they wish. This is how artifacts get redistributed

I tend to agree, within strict limits. Those limits make the design interesting. The limits are also necessary since the ability to steal items that took a player real-life hours or weeks to acquire are a permadeath-level “You Lost!” cancellation decision point. Of course, the author of this point I suspect would wildly disagree with my given limits. My guess is the word “carebear” would be used in a forum post.

Reasonably Intelligent creatures should be able to loot your body and use whatever weapons and items they find.

If not for the points listed above, this is actually almost funny enough to implement.

Creatures that are assumed to be “intelligent” should use tactics in combat. And yes, something a little more in depth than the “bring a friend” dynamics of the current crop of mmorpgs.

I tend to agree. With the following caveat: if you have smart monsters and stupid monsters, players will make a beeline for your stupid monsters, to the extent that you can use metrics to find your stupidest monsters simply based on killcounts.

Realistic Vehicles: Spaceships, speeders, and steeds shouldn’t just be a quick way to get from point to point. A horse that only follows a pre-programmed path is a waste of good glue. Players should be able to control the movement of their vehicles, as well as fight from within or atop them.

Sure. Willing to wait a year while your artists do all new animations and models so you don’t look like complete ass while fighting on horseback? Is my producer willing to wait that year? Again, the game of game design involves working within resource limits. Given that, horseback/vehicle combat is almost always the first thing lopped off because of that – it’s the low hanging fruit. Everyone always promises that it’ll get added in the first expansion. They lie like dogs.

The use of basic items should not be restricted to trained-only characters if it doesn’t make sense. Just because you don’t have any points in the “Shield” skill doesn’t mean you can’t figure out how to hold one up in front of you in a fight.

There’s a hell of a lot more to melee combat then “holding stuff in front of you” – watch fencing videos sometime, they’re all over Youtube. That being said, if you let everyone use shields – amazingly, everyone will use shields. Which makes the people who actually picked the Shield skill feel pretty damned stupid. Hey, I get a 5% chance to block blows for free! You paid skill points to get a 20% chance! Loser!

No global channels. Everything should be restricted to distance. Instead of a vender channel, implement a player advertising system, such as local billboards or something similar (be creative).

You do know these are social games, right? Inhibiting socialization in a game built on socialization as a basis may not be a good idea. Of course global channels should be opt-out (thank you Barrens, for reminding me to turn off /1) but restricting it (or even such insanity as removing /tells) based on “realism” simply lurches into “punishing your players for the sake of presumed immersion” territory. Which, if you have not been taking notes, is bad.

Players need to start out in a completely random area. This not only keeps things from being too systematic and unrealistic, but it also solves the problem of people just waiting for “noobs” to log it so they can take part in a slaughter. (Agreed, but with the addendum that random starting locations should be limited by the average zone level, if there is one. Starting new players off in a random high death area is a bad idea.)

I like it that the list author pointed out the reason why this won’t work for me. This blog entry was getting long anyway!

And finally, to close with the remainder of items to which my reaction was basically “yeah, that could be cool”:

Disguises: Some players could benefit from being able to disguise their faces and names with an appropriate skill or spell. Disguised players might infiltrate the enemy as spies, assassins, and saboteurs… or they could just dodge that bounty on their heads for a while. Maybe they could even get a shave and a haircut.

Multiple crafters and builders should be able to help each other make items and structures. Speed and/or quality of the craft could benefit.

I suppose I could be seen as too dismissive or snarky in dismissing most of this list. As dreams go it’s a fairly articulate one. But dreamy lists like this tend to ignore limits, like budgetary constraints, time constraints, demands of the market, and the sheer limits to what current server and client hardware can accomplish.

Of course in time all these limits will look like so much Luddite ravings. And a successful game will pick maybe one of these things, and say “this is how we are different!”. But most game developers aren’t literally stupid people, message board traffic to the contrary. Sometimes decisions that look idiotic were taken for very non-idiotic reasons.

  1. #1 by RichVR on July 17th, 2007

    Anyone remember the game The Thing based upon the John Carpenter movie? I didn’t think so. But it had “realistic weather”. If you stayed outdoors too long (it was the Arctic, after all) you froze to death. It had indoor save points, if you could find them in time. I played it for about 15 minutes. I’m amazed at my stamina, to this day.

  2. #2 by Sweetmeat on July 17th, 2007

    I loved the ToA link – point made. I and my cousins quit about 5 months after ToA came out when it became apparant we could no longer RvR with even the illusion of parity in our lovingly crafted, overcharged, 99% quality gear. The sort of time sinks involved in getting things to counter all the game breaking crap that expansion introduced were way beyond our interest in continuing to play.

  3. #3 by Boon on July 17th, 2007

    No global channels. Everything should be restricted to distance. Instead of a vender channel, implement a player advertising system, such as local billboards or something similar (be creative).

    You do know these are social games, right? Inhibiting socialization in a game built on socialization as a basis may not be a good idea. Of course global channels should be opt-out (thank you Barrens, for reminding me to turn off /1) but restricting it (or even such insanity as removing /tells) based on “realism” simply lurches into “punishing your players for the sake of presumed immersion” territory. Which, if you have not been taking notes, is bad. ”

    You know, I find it funny that these games are still built upon socialization, when it seem they are being build more and more for the Solo / I’ve only got 2 hours a night crowd.

  4. #4 by yunk on July 17th, 2007

    You know, I find it funny that these games are still built upon socialization, when it seem they are being build more and more for the Solo / I’ve only got 2 hours a night crowd.

    That’s precisely why players want better socialization tools. It’s not that they don’t want to interact at all, they just want to on their terms. No one has time to run 3 zones away to get to the one area of vendors hawking their wares or auction npc. Or if they need a group, a quick way to find players who might be interested, instead of standing around spamming channels.

    There’s nothing ironic about it, quite the opposite. That sort of stuff is all the “busy work” that is ripe for replacement.

  5. #5 by burro on July 17th, 2007

    If you have a real death penalty in a game, people won’t go around starting other peoples houses and fires, and I bet there will be a fire brigade because these people want the safety of friends because they fear the death penalty.

    Look at the difference in peoples pvp tactics between eve and warcraft. It’s cause of the death penalty, take it a bit further and have perma death and I don’t think people would be serial arsonists for long.

    Also, an auction house is the worst tool to run a player economy. Why do you think the trade channel gets spammed in WoW. Eve online selling is best IMO, followed my lineage 2’s afk store, both far superior to WoW’s 24 hour max auction house.

    Governments based on game mechanics,
    No, Eve has the best “government” in the games i’ve played. That’s cause government is run on popular opinion, and if you add game mechanics to that they will just be redundant.

    day/night cycles suck, they’re bad in WoW, they’re worse in Wurm.

  6. #6 by =j on July 17th, 2007

    I am rather supprised the list did not include “Bring back precasting”.

    Seriously. I cannot imagine anyone, much less an entire community, suffering through such a punative ruleset.

  7. #7 by PD on July 17th, 2007

    If you have a real death penalty in a game, people won’t go around starting other peoples houses and fires, and I bet there will be a fire brigade because these people want the safety of friends because they fear the death penalty.

    Look at the difference in peoples pvp tactics between eve and warcraft. It’s cause of the death penalty, take it a bit further and have perma death and I don’t think people would be serial arsonists for long.

    True, because they’ll be splitting their time between serial arson and mass murder.

    What will happen is, griefers will start fires, then ambush and kill your fire brigade while it tries to put out the fire.

    Why do you think the trade channel gets spammed in WoW.

    That’s cause government is run on popular opinion, and if you add game mechanics to that they will just be redundant.

    The goons think its primarily nepotism. A lot of people agree.

  8. #8 by yunk on July 17th, 2007

    What happens when the other player skins your body and then rezzes you?

  9. #9 by Brent Michael Krupp on July 17th, 2007

    People invoking Eve as an example of anything need to remember that it’s the niche-iest of niche games. Saying an idea worked in Eve is like saying the idea basically failed.

    And permadeath? I’ve still never seen any explanation of how this is remotely possible in a game played over the *internet*. When linkdeath = permadeath, the game simply fails. Even the uber-hardcore-peekays go LD sometimes.

    Still, great post Lum. Just like good old times, as someone said above.

  10. #10 by Sam on July 17th, 2007

    ” Players must be able to kill each other without game-engine based rules to protect weaker players. Modern society was ruled by the stronger person for years. A game will have to undergo this period also. Weaker players will be forced to either live on their own, and try to hide from the stronger players, or join more powerful guilds and governments, and remain under their protection until they are strong enough to venture out on their own.

    BWAAAAHHAAHAHAHAHAheeheeheeHAHAHAHA. (finally breathes.) No. Next?”

    Don’t laugh at that. He makes an excellent point. “Game rules” is one thing. Societal rules is another. Like, in Ultima Online for instance, you couldn’t kill people in town. Not because you couldn’t cast damaging spells on them, but because the guards would get you. If it said “You cannot cast a harmful effect on another player in town”, that would be game rules, and those are lame. But you CAN do it, you just die and lose your stuff for doing it. Not only is that more fun, but it makes more sense.

  11. #11 by Gojira Shippi-Taro on July 17th, 2007

    I think the laughter just MIGHT have been BECAUSE of the UO example.

    It didn’t work.

    Hence Trammel, and a great lot of ranty goodness from the LtM archives.

    Players in a game with no real world accountability, left to police themselves, will tend towards an on-line simulation of Lord of the Flies. The scale will be directly related to the playerbase size, the size of the game world, and the number of emotes that can be applied in novel and inventive ways so as to humiliate the defeated.

    It’s a flawed environment for social experiments.

  12. #12 by DaveN on July 17th, 2007

    If you want your game to appeal to anything other than a niche of sado-masochists, you cannot hope to have any sort of open PK. Societal rules will never stop determined griefers. They may shift their activity north, south, east or west by 100 meters, but they will not stop it.

  13. #13 by Random Poster on July 18th, 2007

    This here had me laughing very very hard.

    ” Death must be permanent. Perhaps lower level characters could be able to respawn, until an average level.

    You know, this could be a great interview question for a game designer. “Do you think permadeath in a persistent world, giving the customer a dialog box that says “You have lost the game, all your work invested in your character is history, you should stop giving us money now” is a good idea? You do? Thank you for your time, we’ll be in touch.”

    Snarkyness ftw.

    As for the general direction of the “list” it sounds like a way to get people to NOT play your game.

  14. #14 by Xuri on July 18th, 2007

    How about using permadeath as a tool to punish negative behavior, for instance PKing in pre-trammel UO? If you prey on other, weaker, innocent players, you die permanently if they manage to kill you in return.

  15. #15 by yunk on July 18th, 2007

    xuri, burro, well anyone:) : the problem is permadeath is not a deterrent to griefing. All death penalties do is force players to use better tactics in pve and pvp, but they don’t stop griefing and harassment. Look at every game that has had death penalties: they all still had griefing, even EVE does. All a griefer has to do is reroll a new character, and they’ll just use alts to grief so they don’t waste their main. Fight naked, etc.

    Death penalties might make other players more likely to form anti-pk communities. BUT, will they? Or will they find a different game (or server with different rules) where they don’t have to spend time babysitting? People say Trammel ruined UO, but really that’s like saying pre-Trammel UO worked only because there were no other options for players. Once people got options they left. Even people willing to fight the PKers left, since “patrolling”, or being on a “firefighting team” is really allowing yourself to be held hostage and letting your game activities be dictated by others, instead of dictating it yourself.

  16. #16 by Soliae on July 18th, 2007

    The only real surprise here was the statement that horses/vehicles are such a problem. From what I see in WoW, and even what I saw in UO, mounts seem to be hugely popular with the players – so much so that they spend at least as much time pursuing different mount models as they do equipment upgrades, in many cases. Remember the ridiculous prices the so-called “true black” nightmares commanded at one time in UO – despite the fact that it was exactly the same as any other nightmare?

    My point is that for such a popular feature as mounts to be removed as chaff from a game is surprising. People never admit they look at this as a key feature in their gaming choices, but what I see them doing is exactly the opposite. Everyone wants a pony.

  17. #17 by Amaranthar on July 18th, 2007

    Punishment for grifers can work, I’m convinced of this. It can be permadeath, or a very heavy loss to ability. By this means, the griefer character becomes week and inneffective. It gives regular players a means to enforce “justice”, but what it really does is stop the ability to grief non-stop or even “alot”.

    This stops the casual use of PKing to get ahead in the game by looting. It stops the effective use of PKing to grief more than a few times. But most of all, it give regular players a means to enforce law and order, and I think this is something that’s very attractive, and can even turn PKing into a part of the game in the minds of other players. Instead of thinking of it as grief, it might become a feature. I would expect some people to resist this thought at first, but eventually it will become more than accepted, but expected. (If it ever gets off the ground)

  18. #18 by J. on July 18th, 2007

    Punishment for grifers can work, I’m convinced of this.

    What example can you cite of such a system working? I know of no MMO that does anything like this.

  19. #19 by Amaranthar on July 18th, 2007

    “What example can you cite of such a system working? I know of no MMO that does anything like this.”
    J., you kidding? Of course you don’t see any examples, no one is even trying. Instead they are all doing their best to give us Brand A with raisins, or Brand M for mature. Nothing in between.

    But for the closest thing, I said above:

    Open PvP. This one has always gotten to me. The problem isn’t that players got PKed. The problem was that they couldn’t do anything about it and were helpless against it.
    When UO tried to implement a justice system, the first thing I noticed was that it was really hard to find a PKer. That’s the first good thing about a justice system. The second thing I noticed was that alot of (otherwise) carebear type players were out and ready to take down PKers. That’s the second good thing about it. The third thing I noticed was, when PKers and other players alike realized that “blue” healers remained “innocent” when they healed a PKer, and this tactic became used commonly by PKer groups, these carebear players realized that the justice system wasn’t working and gave up again.

    “If god meant for man to fly, he’d have given us wings.”

  20. #20 by J. on July 18th, 2007

    J., you kidding? Of course you don’t see any examples, no one is even trying.

    So what has you “convinced” that it will work the way you say it would? :) Yeah, UO had bright spots where players were able to enforce a code of conduct that some of them could appreciate, but not that everyone could. Furthermore, none of that was cultivated (intentionally, anyway) by those at OSI at the time, who were still convinced that they needed to ratchet down on the PKing by any means necessary, to stem the outflow of players to EQ.

    Result? UO:R.

  21. #21 by Eolirin on July 18th, 2007

    UO did it. Stat-loss for Reds. It was actually rather effective all things considered. I didn’t stop the problem, but it DID slow it down a lot. Because the counters would decrease over a 48 hour period, and because they were limited to about 4 blue kills before they turned red, most griefers ended up playing to the timers. At best they got the ability to cause a single kill every 8(? I forget the exact number for blues that hadn’t been turned red to lose their counts) hours, or were forced to wait 48 hours or more after they’ve died before resurrecting. That was a massive improvement on their previous ability to kill people constantly with practically no reprecussions.

  22. #22 by Random Poster on July 18th, 2007

    @Soliae

    “My point is that for such a popular feature as mounts to be removed as chaff from a game is surprising:

    Don’t think Lum was talking about mounts themselves being removed, but about fighting from your mount being removed.

  23. #23 by Amaranthar on July 18th, 2007

    And had the situation with healing PKers and not getting a criminal flag been addressed, it would have worked much better. Once PK guilds started taking blue healer alts with them, who could heal them with no penalty and you didn’t dare attack them or you went criminal yourself, the players stopped trying.

  24. #24 by Jessica Mulligan on July 19th, 2007

    They forgot a couple:

    “There must be no fees at all to access and play the game. The game must be absolutely free to play.”

    and

    “All players must receive a pretty pony on entering the game for the first time.”

  25. #25 by Squash Monster on July 19th, 2007

    “Artifact items must be completely unique.”
    This is actually possible if you steal a random artifact generator from a roguelike.

    “Characters must eat.”
    Personally I’ll settle for any system that doesn’t involve gaining HP for eating bread. I know a certain ancient ranter insisted that a well-designed MMO absolutely had to have player characters doing something in the offtime. He suggested that characters ate and slept for one half the time they’d been logged in before they got any benefits from offline activity. I think it’s a good idea.

    “Death must be permanent.”
    This is, despite conventional wisdom, doable. Make character advancement quick, and with a reasonably reachable cap. Remember character advancement includes both items and levels. Note however that this requires RPG game designers to come up with a better reason to play a game than watching R go up. Good bloody luck.

    “I suppose you could just track someone’s X-Y-Z and let them wander off into a THX-1138esque prison of whitespace. That sounds like a lot of fun.”
    A procedurally generated world could theoretically do this and stay interesting. Or if you’re sane, you could make the world wrap at some point. Or if you’re both sane and cool, you could end the world in a edge of the world style dropoff.

    “If you have smart monsters and stupid monsters, players will make a beeline for your stupid monsters, to the extent that you can use metrics to find your stupidest monsters simply based on killcounts.”
    If your combat system requires skill that isn’t twitch, then this actually means that you could hypothetically reward skill by having weak enemies with relatively high xp that have good enough tactics to require an intelligent player to combat them. I’d love to see a game where players who could handle kobold ambushes were valued over ones who could tank a gang of trolls.

    “No global channels.”
    They did this in Urban Dead. Everyone who plays that game gets on the forums or AIM to coordinate everything. See how well that worked?

  26. #26 by yunk on July 19th, 2007

    But most of all, it give regular players a means to enforce law and order, and I think this is something that’s very attractive, and can even turn PKing into a part of the game in the minds of other players.

    Oh yes I agree with that, penalties allow players to enforce decorum for various reasons: besides giving people the ability, it also makes griefing so bad that it gives an incentive for others to try to stop it. But it only works if there were only one game. The problem is there are many games. Instead of babysitting and fighting griefers, won’t those players just leave for a game where they can spend more time playing?

    Hence my statement saying pre-Trammel UO worked is like saying those rules work only when you don’t give players any other choice. Once players had a choice they left.

    I was reading about Prisoner’s Dilemma in , I think it was in The Selfish Gene by Dawkins, but he said studies showed that even when you told players tit for tat was the best strategy, and how to maximize points, they still tried to defect on the other player. So even with all the incentives and strategy spelled out for them: they still chose to be jerks, and in the end their scores were lower. But they kept on doing it.

  27. #27 by Paul Jenkins on July 19th, 2007

    Honestly, several people cite Eve as an example of a workable PvP system without seeming to understand why it works. Eve is built so that all players are expected to do some level of griefing. Piracy and corporate theft are design elements that are pivotal to the operation of the game’s economy. The entire game design is altered by the supposition that griefing is a valid playstyle. In order to attract any of the average gaming market whatsoever, CCP has had to provide a very large amount of content in protected space simply so that new players and casual gamers will be able to play at all.

    The primary risk versus reward consideration for a player in this game becomes “Is what I’m carrying worth enough for another player to sacrifice their own possessions for? Will someone have enough time to kill me before the police respond?”

    It’s not an atmosphere that breeds trust or friendship, as both of those attributes commonly are used to rob and destroy opponents. There is a valid game there, but it’s a game that only a certain type of player really enjoys. The majority of players don’t enjoy the level of paranoia sponsored by an open PvP system, lootable corpses, or player run governnments. Unfortunately, those players that do enjoy those things rarely realize that they are in the minority, and will continue to insist forever that player vigilantism and social darwinism are either necessary or desirable in all MMO’s, when in fact, they are usually neither.

  28. #28 by Amaranthar on July 19th, 2007

    Paul, I’m not one of them, and most people who say what I’m saying aren’t either, I don’t believe. I don’t play Eve, I didn’t play Shadowbane, and I only stayed with UO because it had so much potential (heck, they were one very small step away as indicated above), nor do I play pure (non-RP) PvP servers in games like AC, EQ, or WoW. I don’t because that’s exactly why I promote a justice system. I’m not looking for the gank, nor the revenge gank. I’m looking for a game that has a more realistic approach so the it can play with greater depth, and offer reasons for greater social depth. From this can come greater RP too.

  29. #29 by yunk on July 19th, 2007

    Amaranthar are you looking forward to Age of Conan? I am for similar reasons. They are considering an FFA server. Just reading the forums there makes me sometimes excited sometimes turned off.

    There is a valid game there, but it’s a game that only a certain type of player really enjoys.
    I think that sums up the whole thread. That and we need more ponies.

  30. #30 by Paul Jenkins on July 19th, 2007

    I understand your PoV, Amaranthar. My response was mainly directed at the original article, and a few other references above. Personally, I’m a big fan of justice systems – I think they generally need to be somewhat indirect and out of the hands of players to actually work.

    The other issue is that every designer, sooner or later, will underestimate the intelligence and determination of their players. Systems designed to provide justice are usually exploitable in practice. I tend to think of player behavior following game design (either intentionally or unintentionally). For instance, by including a red/blue system in their sandbox, UO was unintentionally endorsing a level of griefing. The creation of a justice system in this environment is a deal breaker for those players who specifically chose to play UO for the ability to grief. Those players will then look for ways to either abuse the new mechanic, or will quit entirely.

    Starting from the ground up? The system has to be in place as a feature for the griefer. This is the only way (for this system) to reconcile the clash between player types. You cannot protect the PvE players from PvP if the mechanics allow for killers to inhabit the world. The best goal (in my opinion) is to minimize the disruption for the PvE player by making a justice system that requires a great deal of energy to evade, without being terribly punitive.

    Just my .02. ;)

  31. #31 by Amaranthar on July 19th, 2007

    Yunk, no, not looking forwards to Conan. Looks like another level grind, as as far as PvP, I don’t know how anyone expects it to work with levels except in a zone kind of way. Zones, battle grounds, and other gamey ways. Might be fun for some, but for me, it completely lacks what I’m after. (Got to admit though that their combat attack system looks very interesting, and I might play for a while just for that.) Mainly though, levels are a grind and divide players. They also leave you with that “home is where the hat is” feeling, where I want a homeland to build and defend.

    Paul…
    “Starting from the ground up? The system has to be in place as a feature for the griefer. This is the only way (for this system) to reconcile the clash between player types. You cannot protect the PvE players from PvP if the mechanics allow for killers to inhabit the world. The best goal (in my opinion) is to minimize the disruption for the PvE player by making a justice system that requires a great deal of energy to evade, without being terribly punitive.”

    I see it just the opposite. I think you allow the PvP to make for a better game for the regular player, and you limit it by making the PK character pay the price. Heavily, the burden must be on the griefer. In this way, you take out almost all those PKings that are based solely on selfish reasons of loot and infamy. What you have left are a few diehards, and roleplayers doing it for the RP. You also have the “justice” to soothe the regular players, as well as the lower rate of occurance.
    What you add to the game comes in many ways. But mainly:
    -you add a social need that gives a glue to social units
    -you add a risk that makes everything else more meaningful
    -you add gameplay in the form of justice seekers, defenders, etc.
    -you add realism. Want to build a home all alone in the country? You need to be powerful, cities are safer. Want to send a caravan of guild product to the city? Defend it. It adds game play as well as a layer of tactics.

    The overall effect is to reduce grief to a minimum and then pile on the “justice”, so it becomes part of the regular players game instead of the griefers game.

    There are some other things needed, such as a means to track the PKers, even when offline. Here’s where the game becomes more balanced. You’ve already stuck it to the griefers with penalties to reduce the activities, now you make it more of an even game. There’s lots of ways to go here, but the main thing is you need to allow the justice seekers to home in on the “murderer”, and eventually catch up to him. He can stay offline with the character, and avoid justice that way, but eventually he’ll come back. That’s where the justice seekers need to be able to know, and to pick up the trail. The PKer player needs to know only that he has to look over his shoulder all the time, because he won’t know when someone else is hot on his trail.

  32. #32 by Eolirin on July 19th, 2007

    Wait what? Healing PKs DID cause a blue to get flagged a criminal. It didn’t in the inital notoriety system, because there weren’t any criminal flags to begin with… the first system that had been implemented was simply based on whether you killed ‘reds’ or killed ‘blues’ as they were defined then. But there were other ways to get negative notoreity too… simply attacking someone (player or npc) with neutral or positive notoreity, or stealing, would make you go negative, and then people would just kill you since there were no penalties for it. The reputation system added an extra layer in addition to altering how one achieved red and blue.

    With the rep system, the criminal flag was added. As a criminal you became attackable by anyone without any reprecussion. You didn’t get a murder count so you couldn’t go red from attacking a grey, nor did you flag criminal, meaning that no one could attack you besides the criminal flagged player without also becoming criminal flagged. Also, there were several ways of becoming marked a criminal, including stealing and looting. Because of the way the system worked, someone who attacked you for those actions would be flagged as an aggressor, which means if you killed them after they attacked you they would be unable to give you a murder count. That’s really where the system had it’s biggest exploit potential. Because attacking a criminal would allow the criminal to kill you without gaining a murder count, it was possible for people to steal from you and then kill you when you fought back. It also allowed a pk to have helpers like you’re describing, who would stay blue (but only in the long run, they’d turn grey till the criminal flag wore off). Healing a red WOULD flag you as a criminal, and you could be freely killed, but you also would not gain any murder counts if someone attacked you and you retaliated, which effectively let you get into combat through the back door. It’s not that you couldn’t fight back against the players who were doing the healing… you definitely could. It’s just that in the end, they didn’t suffer the reprecussions of the system the way the main attackers would.

    Since being healed causes a situation in which you pretty much need to attack the greys that are aiding the red, you’re stuck in a situation which basically forces you to add more combatants into the fight. Of course, this wasn’t as serious a problem as you’re making out… since the greys would not be able to attack someone who DIDN’T attack them first, effectively allowing you to gank them much more effectively than they could gank you. They couldn’t aid each other outside of healing, which meant that in group situations it should be much easier to take them down than it would be for them to put up a strong resistance, you simply had to make sure that no one attacked more than one of the healers so that they couldn’t gang up on you. Of course, usually, such groups would go after solo players, and yeah it definitely did suck in those situations, but not significantly moreso than being attacked by a group of reds. The only real difference was that in those situations, less murder counts were handed out, which allowed reds to have a slightly high rate of kills due to them being able to break up into smaller groups without losing too much effectiveness.

  33. #33 by Paul Jenkins on July 20th, 2007

    The overall effect is to reduce grief to a minimum and then pile on the “justice”, so it becomes part of the regular players game instead of the griefers game.

    There are some other things needed, such as a means to track the PKers, even when offline. Here’s where the game becomes more balanced. You’ve already stuck it to the griefers with penalties to reduce the activities, now you make it more of an even game. There’s lots of ways to go here, but the main thing is you need to allow the justice seekers to home in on the “murderer”, and eventually catch up to him. He can stay offline with the character, and avoid justice that way, but eventually he’ll come back. That’s where the justice seekers need to be able to know, and to pick up the trail. The PKer player needs to know only that he has to look over his shoulder all the time, because he won’t know when someone else is hot on his trail.

    I agree with your idea. We’re not talking about different things, I think. In your game, the griefer has motivation for griefing, and it’s integral to the design. You’re endorsing the action through design, even if unintentionally. The griefer will look at your system and say, “A challenge!” Evading the law becomes the murderer’s primary purpose. And besides, what hardcore gamer wouldn’t just love the ability to go on the forums and say, “Yeah, I’m a badass! Four guys tracked me to my hideout and I thugged them all!” At the same time, your design allows for “good guy” griefing, too.

    Sounds like WoW meets Eve-O. ;)

  34. #34 by isildur on July 20th, 2007

    Not going to read the whole comment thread, because a quick skim suggests it’s full (as one might expect) of people who are convinced, in the absence of ever having actually worked in a design team for a real, shipping MMO, that OMG HARDKORE PVPZORZ is the way of the future, and so stupidly easy that MMO companies must be employing lobotomized flounder to have not figured it out yet.

    This list is what all these kinds of lists are — and they’re all, ultimately, the same list: people who don’t know the first damn thing about design, trying to design.

    Last night on my way home, I was idly drafting a proposal out loud to my housemate for a SERIOUS HARDCORE GAME in which the tutorial takes place on a battlefield in the middle of a war. Of course, it has permadeath, offering an option not seen since Traveller: the ability to die during character creation.

    And I realized something, or re-realized it: ‘fun to design’ != ‘fun to play’. I’d have a blast designing a game that abusive. It would be like Gibson’s description in Neuromancer of Night City: ‘Night City was like a deranged experiment in social Darwinism, designed by a bored researcher who kept one thumb permanently on the fast-forward button.’ I’d get to watch players scurry like rats in a maze, discovering that every piece of cheese is protected by lethal traps, and the cheese is poisoned. Constructing those systems would be awesome.

    But it wouldn’t be fun to play. Neither would the game implied by this list, or any of the other lists I’ve seen, including lists handed to me by would-be designers re: my game. The game implied by this list would be nothing more than a chance for otherwise empty people to fill themselves with a kind of Lord-of-the-Flies importance, engaging in behaviors that are otherwise totally unacceptable.

    To the author of this, and all other, OMG HARDCORE lists: Please keep in mind that one, you will not be the assraper, you will be the assrapee; two, you will never be the guy at the top of any heap in this or any other game; three, you cannot simultaneously propose a game that requires a next-next-next-gen game engine AND propose a game that includes permadeath and open PvP looting. To the third point, I’d like to add: you might be able to find someone insane enough to invest in your little power-trip masturbation fantasy, but it won’t be enough to pay for the feature set you want. Wishing don’t make it so; you can’t wish hard enough to crap thousand dollar bills, which is what you’ll need to be able to do to ever, ever make that game.

    Because its audience is about a thousand people, and its development costs would be astronomical.

    In conclusion, the only thing more irritating than a player who thinks he’s a designer is a player who thinks he’s an artiste.

  35. #35 by No.6 on July 20th, 2007

    Unfortunately, all games must be designed first and foremost with the presumption that the player is a complete asshat whose primary joy in life is spreading misery to others – because while most aren’t, enough are that the effect is the same.

    MMOs have been a great learning tool that shows exactly how thin the veneer of civilization is without the disadvantages of having to live in a hellhole like Zimbabwe.

    (Sidebar: DDO isn’t really about PvP ’skill’ combat. It has some but just as a fun diversion added post-release to amuse players. I’m not sure it’s correct to ping Turbine on this)

  36. #36 by Amaranthar on July 21st, 2007

    I agree with your idea. We’re not talking about different things, I think. In your game, the griefer has motivation for griefing, and it’s integral to the design. You’re endorsing the action through design, even if unintentionally. The griefer will look at your system and say, “A challenge!” Evading the law becomes the murderer’s primary purpose. And besides, what hardcore gamer wouldn’t just love the ability to go on the forums and say, “Yeah, I’m a badass! Four guys tracked me to my hideout and I thugged them all!” At the same time, your design allows for “good guy” griefing, too.

    Paul, yes, but the main thing is to add a realism and a constant risk, but one that’s on the rare side. There’s a game with this in mind (although lacking the massive funding that I really wish they had) called Ages of Athiria, where Kressilac calls it UO3DMNG (UO in 3D, minus the gank). That “minus the gank” part is critical. If the game as it plays out doesn’t satisfy the regular player, the semi-carebear if you will, then it doesn’t work.

    The point is, in any fantasy novel/story you have the crime, but you also have the means to end the criminals behind it. This does that. It allows for heroic actions as well as devilish evil. But it keeps it to a minimum, because most players by far are not going to risk their character for a brief fling with evil deeds.
    But yeah, youd have the few who want to see how far they can get, and then youd have the bounty hunters. But mostly, you’d have a whole bunch of players playing in a game world that’s much more realistic and has the freedom of choice that’s so lacking in todays games, and just makes sense.

    There are even more aspects to consider. Things such as allowing every character to be able to fight better than a less than developed PKer character, and a closer set of skills from newb to max, however it’s done, so that the entire social unit can be on a close enough footing that they can actually play together and intermingle. This means taking out level zones, which means other things come into play such as lag for large groups, etc. There’s a lot to consider, no feature of any game should be designed without also considering what effect it has on all other features. But there are answers.

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