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	<title>Comments on: I Like Orc Butt And I Cannot Lie</title>
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	<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/</link>
	<description>Random Comments About Games and Tractors</description>
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		<title>By: Qit el-Remel</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8567</link>
		<dc:creator>Qit el-Remel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8567</guid>
		<description>I play WoW, and I enjoy playing it.  Nonetheless, I&#039;ve got a laundry list of minor gripes, very few of which are even about character design at all.  (Yes, the chainmail bikini effect of certain armor on female characters bothers me a bit.  And based on how *male* draenei look, *female* draenei should probably be built more like female orcs.  But I feel compelled to mention that the female night elf /dance is *not* a &quot;stripper dance&quot;—it&#039;s based off of Alizee&#039;s &quot;J&#039;en Ai Marre&quot; video—and it *is* possible to put a rather forbidding expression on the face of a female draenei, dwarf, blood elf, or even night elf.)

Back to the subject at hand:  It is nearly impossible to prevent males of Alliance races from looking either grim or haggard—and even if you manage, they tend to look vacuous.  It *is* impossible to make males of most Horde races look less than grotesque: Although blood elves are an exception, they have the same issue as Alliance males...with the added option of looking *petulant.*  So I would argue that the design issues aren&#039;t limited to female characters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I play WoW, and I enjoy playing it.  Nonetheless, I&#8217;ve got a laundry list of minor gripes, very few of which are even about character design at all.  (Yes, the chainmail bikini effect of certain armor on female characters bothers me a bit.  And based on how *male* draenei look, *female* draenei should probably be built more like female orcs.  But I feel compelled to mention that the female night elf /dance is *not* a &#8220;stripper dance&#8221;—it&#8217;s based off of Alizee&#8217;s &#8220;J&#8217;en Ai Marre&#8221; video—and it *is* possible to put a rather forbidding expression on the face of a female draenei, dwarf, blood elf, or even night elf.)</p>
<p>Back to the subject at hand:  It is nearly impossible to prevent males of Alliance races from looking either grim or haggard—and even if you manage, they tend to look vacuous.  It *is* impossible to make males of most Horde races look less than grotesque: Although blood elves are an exception, they have the same issue as Alliance males&#8230;with the added option of looking *petulant.*  So I would argue that the design issues aren&#8217;t limited to female characters.</p>
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		<title>By: Zen of Design&#187;Blog Archive &#187; You&#8217;ll Poke Your Eye Out!</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8522</link>
		<dc:creator>Zen of Design&#187;Blog Archive &#187; You&#8217;ll Poke Your Eye Out!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8522</guid>
		<description>[...] I&#8217;m generally pro-good looking people in my games, and I don&#8217;t mind a bare midriff now and then. Most people want to play avatars that look either attractive or cool. We&#8217;re in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I&#8217;m generally pro-good looking people in my games, and I don&#8217;t mind a bare midriff now and then. Most people want to play avatars that look either attractive or cool. We&#8217;re in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Viz</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8566</link>
		<dc:creator>Viz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8566</guid>
		<description>Make all kinds of different body models?  Hell, the gear already doesn&#039;t work right on the default troll male body.  I remember on the first Halloween in-game, the masks looked like hideous baby bonnets because their faces would project through the mouth area.

If they can&#039;t even get all the base models right, they have absolutely no business trying to make everything work for dozens of different variations upon the base models.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make all kinds of different body models?  Hell, the gear already doesn&#8217;t work right on the default troll male body.  I remember on the first Halloween in-game, the masks looked like hideous baby bonnets because their faces would project through the mouth area.</p>
<p>If they can&#8217;t even get all the base models right, they have absolutely no business trying to make everything work for dozens of different variations upon the base models.</p>
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		<title>By: Time for a new computer &#171; Voyages in Eternity</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8521</link>
		<dc:creator>Time for a new computer &#171; Voyages in Eternity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8521</guid>
		<description>[...] as well.  Sara Jensen linked to a short article on hyper-idealized avatars, which Scott Jennings commented on in depth.  (Cameron beat me to that one, and had actual commentary to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] as well.  Sara Jensen linked to a short article on hyper-idealized avatars, which Scott Jennings commented on in depth.  (Cameron beat me to that one, and had actual commentary to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David E.</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8520</link>
		<dc:creator>David E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8520</guid>
		<description>I can see merit in both sides of the argument.

I would like the choice between playing a HERO and create an Avatar that resembles Conan or whatever, but I would also like the choice of creating a toon that resembles myself or a family member.

DAOC and Asheron&#039;s call had the toons that tended to look the most realistic. WOW and EQ are at the other end of the spectrum.

But then look at society and how we really view beauty/ugliness. The best example I can think of is the TV show &quot;Ugly Betty&quot; where the girl is actually quite pretty and they make her &quot;ugly&quot; by giving her braces and glasses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see merit in both sides of the argument.</p>
<p>I would like the choice between playing a HERO and create an Avatar that resembles Conan or whatever, but I would also like the choice of creating a toon that resembles myself or a family member.</p>
<p>DAOC and Asheron&#8217;s call had the toons that tended to look the most realistic. WOW and EQ are at the other end of the spectrum.</p>
<p>But then look at society and how we really view beauty/ugliness. The best example I can think of is the TV show &#8220;Ugly Betty&#8221; where the girl is actually quite pretty and they make her &#8220;ugly&#8221; by giving her braces and glasses.</p>
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		<title>By: Xanthippe</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8524</link>
		<dc:creator>Xanthippe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8524</guid>
		<description>I disagree with the above posters who say this is one thing DAOC got right.  I prefer Blizzard&#039;s female models to Mythic&#039;s - at least there are alternate choices to being plain.  While I understand some women preferring the less idealized/less sexualized models, I want to be able to choose the hyper-idealized models as well.

When I was younger, I probably would have played a Dwarf female, or a Tauren. Now, though, I don&#039;t want to play a dwarf female because, frankly, if I want to watch a dumpy female running around, I&#039;ll go out and run around.  The more I resemble the plainer models irl, the less I want to play one in a game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with the above posters who say this is one thing DAOC got right.  I prefer Blizzard&#8217;s female models to Mythic&#8217;s &#8211; at least there are alternate choices to being plain.  While I understand some women preferring the less idealized/less sexualized models, I want to be able to choose the hyper-idealized models as well.</p>
<p>When I was younger, I probably would have played a Dwarf female, or a Tauren. Now, though, I don&#8217;t want to play a dwarf female because, frankly, if I want to watch a dumpy female running around, I&#8217;ll go out and run around.  The more I resemble the plainer models irl, the less I want to play one in a game.</p>
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		<title>By: HitNRun</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8526</link>
		<dc:creator>HitNRun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8526</guid>
		<description>Seconded on the mage point, Mutant for Hire.

WoW does have a problem with stereotyped models, but it&#039;s not the female ones. People are just so used to flapping their jaws- they&#039;ve been doing it since the first Everquest box eight years ago- about misogyny and boobies and sweaty virgin geeks in MMOs that they don&#039;t realize that WoW&#039;s female models are rather low key in comparison. Four of the original races are &quot;attractive,&quot; at least 7s on the 10 scale, but another four- Tauren, Orcs, Dwarves, Gnomes- are unattractive.  None of them are so because of an EQ-sized rack and you rarely find a piece of &quot;armor&quot; that wears like a bikini on females.

The &quot;problem,&quot; such as it is in WoW, is with the male models. All the models, except gnomes and undead, are roid-raging &#039;ceps-and-pecs machines, which makes it difficult to &quot;fully realize&quot; most fantasy archtypes. Sure, I laugh with the best of them at the anime fans and greasy goth teens who are dismayed at their inability to play an angst-machine or a Japanese paragon, but even I&#039;ve been frustrated at the lack of range in Blizzard&#039;s character palette.

The fact is, WoW is the way it is not just because of pervert marketers, but because it is a Warcraft game. Warcraft has a certain artistic style to it, which involves massive muscles, mag-shoulders, and meat-cleavers. Females are smaller. Blizzard didn&#039;t pay attention to &quot;the industry standards&quot; of realism when they were designing their cartoony landscape, so I don&#039;t see why we should expect them to either enforce taste or enable a vast psychological rainbow in their character creation. Boot up WC3 and look at that poorly split baguette hanging off Jaina&#039;s torso, and be glad they muted the style as much as they did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seconded on the mage point, Mutant for Hire.</p>
<p>WoW does have a problem with stereotyped models, but it&#8217;s not the female ones. People are just so used to flapping their jaws- they&#8217;ve been doing it since the first Everquest box eight years ago- about misogyny and boobies and sweaty virgin geeks in MMOs that they don&#8217;t realize that WoW&#8217;s female models are rather low key in comparison. Four of the original races are &#8220;attractive,&#8221; at least 7s on the 10 scale, but another four- Tauren, Orcs, Dwarves, Gnomes- are unattractive.  None of them are so because of an EQ-sized rack and you rarely find a piece of &#8220;armor&#8221; that wears like a bikini on females.</p>
<p>The &#8220;problem,&#8221; such as it is in WoW, is with the male models. All the models, except gnomes and undead, are roid-raging &#8216;ceps-and-pecs machines, which makes it difficult to &#8220;fully realize&#8221; most fantasy archtypes. Sure, I laugh with the best of them at the anime fans and greasy goth teens who are dismayed at their inability to play an angst-machine or a Japanese paragon, but even I&#8217;ve been frustrated at the lack of range in Blizzard&#8217;s character palette.</p>
<p>The fact is, WoW is the way it is not just because of pervert marketers, but because it is a Warcraft game. Warcraft has a certain artistic style to it, which involves massive muscles, mag-shoulders, and meat-cleavers. Females are smaller. Blizzard didn&#8217;t pay attention to &#8220;the industry standards&#8221; of realism when they were designing their cartoony landscape, so I don&#8217;t see why we should expect them to either enforce taste or enable a vast psychological rainbow in their character creation. Boot up WC3 and look at that poorly split baguette hanging off Jaina&#8217;s torso, and be glad they muted the style as much as they did.</p>
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		<title>By: Mutant for Hire</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8523</link>
		<dc:creator>Mutant for Hire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8523</guid>
		<description>I have issues with a lot of the male toons for WoW. I wanted to play a human male mage but I kept looking at the fact my character did not look like he had been raised reading books, but fed on steroids and hauling boulders around. I understand why WoW only gives one bodytype to each gender/race combination, but I find it rather annoying they went to extremes for each of them. A sound business decision but rather annoying.

In the end, I&#039;m really waiting for a next generation fantasy MMO which allows for a higher level of character avatar customization, from base bodytype to redoing the gear. That would solve a lot of arguments right then and there. If someone wants a realistic character with realistic armor, that would be their choice. If someone wants a Red Sonja in chainmail bikini or Conan in loincloth, that&#039;s their option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have issues with a lot of the male toons for WoW. I wanted to play a human male mage but I kept looking at the fact my character did not look like he had been raised reading books, but fed on steroids and hauling boulders around. I understand why WoW only gives one bodytype to each gender/race combination, but I find it rather annoying they went to extremes for each of them. A sound business decision but rather annoying.</p>
<p>In the end, I&#8217;m really waiting for a next generation fantasy MMO which allows for a higher level of character avatar customization, from base bodytype to redoing the gear. That would solve a lot of arguments right then and there. If someone wants a realistic character with realistic armor, that would be their choice. If someone wants a Red Sonja in chainmail bikini or Conan in loincloth, that&#8217;s their option.</p>
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		<title>By: Axecleaver</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8525</link>
		<dc:creator>Axecleaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8525</guid>
		<description>Have you guys ever played Sims and gone through the character customization? This is my 9 yo daughter&#039;s favorite part of the game. She&#039;s modeled our entire neighborhood and put them in houses. She never actually plays or develops them, but she enjoyed going through the setup. It&#039;s not too different in MMOs - character creation can be an interesting and engaging a part of the experience as anything else in the game.

Me, I click through that stuff as fast as I can to get to the pvp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you guys ever played Sims and gone through the character customization? This is my 9 yo daughter&#8217;s favorite part of the game. She&#8217;s modeled our entire neighborhood and put them in houses. She never actually plays or develops them, but she enjoyed going through the setup. It&#8217;s not too different in MMOs &#8211; character creation can be an interesting and engaging a part of the experience as anything else in the game.</p>
<p>Me, I click through that stuff as fast as I can to get to the pvp.</p>
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		<title>By: The Alien</title>
		<link>http://brokentoys.org/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/comment-page-1/#comment-8527</link>
		<dc:creator>The Alien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/i-like-orc-butt-and-i-cannot-lie/#comment-8527</guid>
		<description>I really disliked the night elf male...too many muscles.  Why can&#039;t we have skinny, bookish elves?  Even the BEs got pumped up somewhat.

Now, given, my main is male gnome...when you&#039;re a gnome, your gear is somewhat less obvious because it is also small...as are you...  But I don&#039;t see the armor in WoW as being overly revealing for females, either.

My next-most-advanced character is a warlock, female human.  She manages to look quite scholarly in her robes.  No cheesecake, no pouting...

I&#039;d love to see every game with CoH/SWG level character customization, but I don&#039;t think WoW is sexist.  I think people tend to see what they want to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really disliked the night elf male&#8230;too many muscles.  Why can&#8217;t we have skinny, bookish elves?  Even the BEs got pumped up somewhat.</p>
<p>Now, given, my main is male gnome&#8230;when you&#8217;re a gnome, your gear is somewhat less obvious because it is also small&#8230;as are you&#8230;  But I don&#8217;t see the armor in WoW as being overly revealing for females, either.</p>
<p>My next-most-advanced character is a warlock, female human.  She manages to look quite scholarly in her robes.  No cheesecake, no pouting&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to see every game with CoH/SWG level character customization, but I don&#8217;t think WoW is sexist.  I think people tend to see what they want to see.</p>
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