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Eve: CCP Strikes Back
In an astoundingly detailed (with many screenshots of internal tools and emails), vehement and visceral news posting, CCP’s internal affairs posts a detailed journal of their investigation, which concluded: Goonfleet deliberately attacked Eve Online.
Since last Friday, an unnamed corporation posted over 4000 times on EVE’s message boards concerning these allegations. In addition, 1046 posts were made on Digg.com; 235 comments were added on Slashdot; and made multiple EVE-related edits on Wikipedia. Each of these sites was hit within a few hours of each other, at the start of the three-day Memorial Day weekend in the US and a three-day weekend in Iceland, all referencing unfounded allegations — now proven to be false — that occurred three weeks ago or longer.
The volume and timing of these near-simultaneous references is no coincidence: we were the target of a carefully constructed and well-timed social engineering effort by one of the largest player groups in our community. The intention? To undermine EVE Online and the credibility of CCP Games.
More specifically, the objective of this scheme was to permanently paint CCP as a biased and corrupt company that favors a select group of players over the rest of our community. In this particular case, instead of receiving notification of a possible problem and sufficient time to examine and address it, we faced a coordinated and hostile attack executed on our forums, Digg, Wikipedia, Slashdot, and other outlets at the beginning of a three-day weekend. We believe this speaks volumes of the intention of the person(s) responsible for orchestrating this scheme. Verification of this can be readily found on the forums of the people responsible—or at least could, the last time we looked.
Claims that the goal of this effort was to expose corruption within the company cannot be taken seriously. They are simply a smokescreen intended to mobilize and use the EVE community against CCP. There is no evidence to support the claim of information sent to CCP concerning internal corruption and wrongdoings on the part of our employees is being systematically suppressed.
The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances. The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.
It’s not every day an MMO declares war on a huge segment of their own community. Then again, Eve is pretty damn hardcore.
Note that prior to this, public sentiment was pretty strongly against CCP’s handling of the matter. It’ll be interesting to see what the fallout from this is.
So. My opinions (and they are just that: opinions):
* The snapshots of dev tools looked genuine. (Although why they’d use web-based CS front ends makes me cry.) It either proves that the Goon guild in question did in fact request CS help weeks ago (the main element of their complaint was that they didn’t), or that CCP has sunk to fabricating evidence (and if you believe that, there’s nothing that will convince you otherwise). That debunks the most damning of the allegations, that a CCP dev was spying on Goonfleet for BoB.
* The volunteer canned for locking horns with BoB was briefly addressed, but not as conclusively as the above. It also wasn’t as damning. When you have volunteers, you have drama. It comes with the territory. It’s why most games that have volunteer programs have them very limited, and on a very tight leash.
* The BoB member bragging about having CCP devs on his IM list wasn’t addressed at all. Let me look at my IM list real quick… I still have about 20 DAOC players on mine from when I worked there. It’s not unusual at all, and certainly not evidence of wrongdoing. It’s a very quick way to gain feedback, from the hardcore players who know more about the game than you do. Just because I would talk to DAOC TLs and the like doesn’t mean I’d flip relics for them. Presumably CCP has online metrics to measure that sort of foolishness anyway… especially after being burned once already.
* Goons have a long and storied history of stirring things up. As a poster on somethingawful.com said,
To be quite honest I don’t really put it past the Mittani (Goonfleet leader), moral scruples are not in his job description.
(Disclaimer: I played with a Goonguild on DAOC earlier this year for a few weeks. No one seemed to have horns or flaming hooves.)
* CCP to date has done a spectacularly bad job of community management. I haven’t addressed this much publically, because it goes against my wish to never speak ill of competitors. But this could have been handled better. Much better. In particular, CCP has a habit of making posts they dislike not locked, but disappear. That makes it appear as though they have something to hide… even if they don’t. And it gives credence to those who allege that they do.
PvP games are serious business. You have the hardest of the hardest core, looking for every advantage possible. And Eve is the hardest of the hardcore PvP game out there. If you’re working on a game with a PvP component, there’s a lot to learn from all this in how to run your own game – and how not to.
And as players, about the best advice you can get came from the normally tongue-tied CM Kieron:
If you think CCP is in the wrong, we welcome constructive dialogue and criticism. If you feel we as an entity are corrupt and abhorrent, we bid you good luck in finding a game and company that suits your interests. If you agree with our assessment, we thank you for sharing our opinion and ask that you continue playing EVE in your normal manner.
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- Van Hemlock
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about 3 years ago
Little Bunny Foo-Foo, I told you what would happen.
*poof*
Now you’re a GOON!
about 3 years ago
told u i was hardcore
I hope for their sake that they’re right. However, I’m not sure they have the political capital to spend on a war, and I’m damned sure most of the interested parties isn’t going to read all of that.
about 3 years ago
I noticed they didn’t touch the fact that some people in certain alliances have MSN access to devs/GMs.
That is what I think has the community riled up the most right now.
about 3 years ago
@3, in the scheme of things that’s pretty low. When working on DAOC I had about 40 hardcore players on my IM list, mostly because they knew more about the game than I did.
about 3 years ago
Maybe this is a Boston thing, but ever be waiting to pull into traffic, catch someone who isn’t paying attention and pull in front of them, only to have them belatedly blare their horn in frustration? It’s not because you cut them off and almost caused an accident. It’s because you happened to get the best of them and now they’re really pissed about it.
about 3 years ago
I’m not sure I buy it. CCP has something to prove after their poor handling of the previous incident. What would the motivation be for an entire corp to undermine the game? I don’t put it past people but it’s a bit of an extraordinary claim since players ruining a game they are playing is counter-productive.
Also I recall CCPs attack on the person who exposed the previous incident and I just need more than a drama ridden post to buy their story.
about 3 years ago
This is pretty typical CCP behavior, they’re focusing on one specific aspect (Darkstar One (DS1) having a Dev character enter into the corp, give himself director access, and then leave shortly afterwards). Supposively this was to fix a problem with something, but the director of the corp wanted an explanation and never got any. Since none was given, it allowed allegations to fly.
However, they’re completely ignoring the others because they look bad. VERY bad.
In one, an ISD individual (Eve’s NPC news group) was spectating a battle between Band of Brothers (BoB) + Allies and Goonfleet/Red Alliance + Allies. One of the pilots for BoB accused him of bumping a dreadnaught and ordered him to leave. The ISD player ignored this and remained there to watch the battle, as his position entitled him to.
Three hours later, the ISD player’s account was banned from anything CCP related (Including a Counterstrike server)
During the ‘Threadnaught’ a BoB player admitted that they had MSN contacts with members of CCP and thus could contact them directly instead of using in-game petitions like everyone else. This was also reportedly how the ISD guy got canned.
Other items were further confirmation that various RP events were rigged, not only resulting in certain groups getting items before others even had a chance to respond, but also having supposively ‘open-ended’ events be pre-determined from the get-go.
about 3 years ago
Current bottom line: Goonfleet might do something like this, not necessarily to be malicious as much as to stir shit for the simple fun of stirring shit; that’s part of their charm, those lovably unpredictable bastards. On the other hand, though, there is no reason to believe CCP without some solid proof, as they’ve lost most of their credibility.
Goonfleet: 0
CCP: 0
We have a tie.
about 3 years ago
I tend to agree with Streamweaver, if only because it seems like CCP is waving their own “smokescreen” and saying nothing about the allegations that prompted this supposed attack by malintentioned player corp.
about 3 years ago
What proof would suffice? They posted screenshots of their internal tools showing that the GM’s entering the corp was due to a CS petition (despite what Goonfleet alleged). Not really sure what else you could ask for; if you think they mocked that up as part of a “big lie”, then no proof at all would do, really.
As for the in-game event being rigged and the volunteer being booted for wacky reasons, they didn’t post as much outright proof for that, but not sure there’s any way to. And as I said before, developers having IM contact with community leaders isn’t unusual, or necessarily nefarious. I talked to people in DAOC all the time, but that doesn’t mean I’d flip relics for them.
about 3 years ago
scottj, the thing is that in the past, BoB did receive stuff from some Devs and GMs, such as Tech 2 BPOs which, at the time, were practically licenses to print money. There’s also been suspicious stuff about exploits that weren’t, or didn’t become known until BoB used them, at which point they became ‘features’ (Apparently shields only stop gunfire if you give it a password)
about 3 years ago
“And as I said before, developers having IM contact with community leaders isn’t unusual, or necessarily nefarious. I talked to people in DAOC all the time, but that doesn’t mean I’d flip relics for them.”
I don’t think the issue people are latching on to is that “ZOMG the devs talk to players on MSN”. It’s the fact that those channels were apparently used to ban another player for a questionable reason, and without any sort of discovery period.
about 3 years ago
From my point of view, it’s hard to see what ELSE CCP could do to fix this situation. It’s discussed the corp joining action, the ISD firing, and the event rigging accusation.
After reading the forums, you could tell that many anti-CCP posts were made by alt characters. Coming at a time when certain alliances are losing territory, I find this a little too coincidental.
about 3 years ago
Post updated with actual opinions!
about 3 years ago
CCP has credibility?
about 3 years ago
Yeah, skipping over BoB having a direct line to devs and using it to fire the ISD guy is probably the only thing they need to cover up, as everything else is just refutable enough to be believable.
Just because he had a history of problems, doesn’t mean his last action actually happened. It’s especially bad, because proper procedure was not followed. You don’t call a dev to get him fired, you send another petition and let the GMs investigate first. Holding his past against him as an excuse not to investigate his last action is just pure lazy and unprofessional.
about 3 years ago
For what it’s worth, none of the members of the corporation that CCP Sharkbait joined to handle the petition are aware of that petition. I haven’t heard from the CEO of the corp since the official CCP response has been posted, but to the best knowledge of both directors of the corp, there was only one petition filed by the corp, and it was filed back in February/March. It was about Blueprints, but the timelines don’t match.
Also, the petition by the CEO of the corp asking for an explanation as to why CCP Sharkbait had joined and left the corporation was deleted/closed/vanished.
Also, Goonswarm tried all normal methods of contact with CCP first, petitions, emails, and calm, rational postings on the official forums. The petitions vanished, the posts were deleted, and the emails were ignored.
If you’re standing on my foot and don’t move when I tap you on the shoulder repeatedly, you really shouldn’t get upset when I have to yell in your ear to get you to move off of my foot.
about 3 years ago
yeah, CCP has been their own worst enemy in this affair, but the Goons are no better. I get that they felt they were being ignored, but that’s probably because their accusations were unfounded and based on hearsay. they refuse to believe whatever the developers say (granted they took a hit to credibility before, but not one that is irrevocable – or why are we all still playing?), so why should we just take them at their word? oh, we never filed a petition. boom, there it is. Oh, THAT one…oh, our petition was deleted…really? how are we to know? your good word? okay, we’ll believe you. oh, wait – nothing bad was done anyway. so much for that.
the ISD guy basically waved a flag in local asking to get shitcanned, either his conduct or his words would have sufficed as evidence, and you think there was no ‘discovery’ period? if I walk into work and take a shit on my boss’s desk, I think I’d be awfully lucky to last five minutes. I cannot believe this is the lone pillar holding up this entire mess of accusations – it’s pathetic.
about 3 years ago
Scott said:
“What proof would suffice? They posted screenshots of their internal tools showing that the GM’s entering the corp was due to a CS petition (despite what Goonfleet alleged). Not really sure what else you could ask for; if you think they mocked that up as part of a “big lie”, then no proof at all would do, really.
As for the in-game event being rigged and the volunteer being booted for wacky reasons, they didn’t post as much outright proof for that, but not sure there’s any way to. And as I said before, developers having IM contact with community leaders isn’t unusual, or necessarily nefarious. I talked to people in DAOC all the time, but that doesn’t mean I’d flip relics for them.”
The CEO of the corp in question (DS1) did petition asking about the action. That petition was removed without being answered. Now we’re seeing proof – and I believe what they’ve posted, because god only knows if I was going to fake stuff I’d make it look like I had better tools to use.
CCP desperately needs Sanya. They need PR help, badly. The T20 scandal and all the other allegations could have been handled so much better it’s not even funny – even if you’re actually going to do it, you don’t tell your customers that you’re suing them until the day the papers are served.
CCP encourages asshattery in-game – it’s really a broken system, as there’s no way to actually punish someone who scams you, or steals everything you own, etc – I’m rather shocked that CCP doesn’t understand the type of player that they attract. Sadly, I’m one of them, full on in the grasp of the sunk-cost fallacy..
I had a bunch more stuff to say, but it’s midnight and I need to get to bed. Probably will post it tomorrow..
about 3 years ago
If they are thinking of bringing legal action against goonswarm, why don’t they just ban all goonswarm players & get it over with?
about 3 years ago
http://games.slashdot.org/games/07/05/30/0412241.shtml
Did we really need lum to tell us it was Goonfleet? How do you NOT know it was them?
about 3 years ago
one thing is for sure, it’s never been a better day to be a Goon.
about 3 years ago
As someone who doesn’t play Eve, but does watch the news about it, this development doesn’t seem that surprising.
After all, Eve is famous for social engineering, players infiltrating other corporations and stealing their secrets and money. This is nothing more than a stepping-up of that style. A social engineering attack against the developers, not other players.
You reap what you sow, after all.
about 3 years ago
Sure it has. They’ve had a lot better days, actually. The whole reason Goonswarm did this was because they’re on the losing side of the biggest war in MMO history.
about 3 years ago
FUCKING GOONS ARE SCUM TBQH AND I CANT WAIT TILL THEY GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY GAME
I HOPE CCP BANS AND GREIFS THEM OUT OF THE GAME WITH ‘NPC’ ATTACKS AND THEN SUES THE FAT BASTARED THAT STARTED IT ALL
about 3 years ago
I’m starting to view PvP drama as performance art. This is a masterpiece.
about 3 years ago
Goonswarm alliance claims to disband
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=528714
about 3 years ago
When you were at DAOC how many people did you have on your IM list because they were your friends and had played with you since beta?
about 3 years ago
Players having direct access to devs is no surprise especially if your guild is one of the “best of the best” in that particular game.
Over the course of the 6 mmo’s I and my community have played I have most of the senior devs and design leads for each of those games on msn and also direct telephone numbers in the case of some.
Overreaction through superb social engineering to convince the masses that the minority are in the wrong.
about 3 years ago
I’m surprised at you Scott for not fully understanding how this went down.
This is what happened.
The CEO of a non-goonfleet corp darkstar1 (they joined goonswarm the alliance a few weeks ago) makes a post on the goonfleet forums showing that a GM/Dev joined their corp and gave himself director access.
Everybody thinks, woah spy, due to past history with CCP and that fact that darkstar1 have a lot of capital ships and a director can see where their capital ship yards are. The CEO also states he has raised a petition and that was deleted, (this is important).
On the same day kugutsumen releases information on the rigged RP events and the msn firing of the reporter.
Goonfleet forums start to plan what to do, a SMASH member (not part of goonswarm) posts on the offical EVE online forums twice about the RP events and the firing of the reporter by msn.
His threads are snipped. Goonswarm is unleashed onto the offical forums to bring the 3 allegations to light.
CCP respond to the first allegation about darkstar1 and say someone logged a petition about a pos, darkstar1 tell goonfleet that that can’t be true they only had 2 pos’s at the time and neither had modules fitted. That’s new to goonswarm membership turns out they didn’t have capital yards.
It later turns out the two directors of darkstar1 are a bit foggy on details, maybe their petition asking why the dev was in the corp didn’t get deleted, maybe it was raised on a different account. Doesn’t matter because they are afraid of getting their accounts banned making a fuss.
The 2nd in command of BoB posts that he speaks to devs on msn all the time.
To be fair Scott, it doesn’t matter how many normal players you had contact with in DAoC, the situation is not the same. Eve is all one server and I’m sure if a dev at Mythic had previously been flipping relics for one guild on one server in DAoC you wouldn’t have been so keen about keeping players from that guild on your contact list.
CCP could have defused this on the day it arose by being clear on the darkstar1 situation, they concluded their investigation without even contacting anyone in darkstar1. They could have a policy on msn communication with members of BoB, they choose not even to address that. The RP events are rigged, not that anyone cares that much about that.
So in summary two of the three allegations appear to be true, one probably isn’t true and CCP now chose to threaten legal action on goonswarm.
about 3 years ago
Never threaten a lawsuit unless you fully intend to follow through with it – to the very end. Frankly, I have a hard time picturing the CCP lawyer explaining such an asshat game and their side of it to a trial judge (in Iceland? Finland? where is the trial going to be?)
Come to think of it, just how are you going to write up such a legal document without being laughed out of the court in 5 minutes? Its laughable even to people who understand MMOGs/communities and stuff, let alone stuff legal types.
Bad management all around.
about 3 years ago
add: Just what are the legal standards of screenshots as “evidence”? I would say practically none as you can just about doctor and manipulate every single aspect of it (especially if CCP has access to all the servers etc.)
Even in you do get by the first 5 minutes of court time, who wins in a legal mud-bath? If CCP can use half truths, allegations and “sins of omissions”, so can “the other side”. By the end of it, their credibility to gamers would be ‘finito’…
about 3 years ago
*CCP press release strikes themselves in the foot, perfectly wrecking for 1337 damage*
“It wasn’t us, it was the evil Goons! Come on, you can trust us…we haven’t been caught lying to you about internal corruption for almost a couple of months now!”
Funny how they don’t mention the self-admitted CCP hotline BoB has.
about 3 years ago
Aufero,
No, this is not a masterpiece. It’s really not that hard to p*ss in the swimming pool if you really want to spoil other people’s fun. Goonswarm is generally scum. The fact that some people do it more when they are anonymous and online does not speak well of them as people. Calling it a “work of art” is intellectual and moral dishonesty.
Metagaming is for punks. Growing up in Chicago’s Little Italy neighborhood, I remember a guy trying to “metagame” while shooting craps. He got all the fingers on his shooting hand broken and an eye put out. Now that’s “hard core gaming”.
about 3 years ago
“While it’s somewhat understandable that the participation of CCP staff in EVE is being questioned once again, our answer must once more be that our involvement is vital to the development of EVE. Barring CCP employees from the game would effectively stop EVE in its tracks. EVE is such a complex application that it is impossible to understand it without participating, playing on the test server is not the full EVE experience, nor is it possible to replicate issues involving our server structure or large amounts of players using it. ”
It’s this bit I am bewildered by. It just strikes me as totally wrong…
about 3 years ago
Ironwood, read it as: “We’re not going to stop helping our corp-mates in BoB” and it makes more sense.
PopeRatzo: Metagaming is an acknowledged, even encouraged, part of EVE. That is one of the problems.
about 3 years ago
As a WoW player I’m not convinced that 4000 posts constitutes a conspiracy.
about 3 years ago
THis entire thing boils down to shitty customer service on CCP’s part. If they’d answered DS1′s “hay why this happen” petitions instead of deleting them, there wouldn’t have been a thread. If they’d answered the thread, there wouldn’t have been a spam attack. etc.
Anyone who seriously thinks “OMG GOONFLEET CONSPIRACY TO DESTROY CCP” isn’t thinking — there’s no logical reason at all for goonfleet to attack CCP. THe only way that makes sense is if BoB and CCP are essentially the same entity.
about 3 years ago
First off, let me say I’m not speaking for the corp (or guild I suppose).
But there was no ill intention here. People are just pissed off at the constant stream of really really shady nonsense that happens here.
I love EVE. I really do. And I also want the best for CCP. But its at the point where many of us just cant play anymore, because the dice are so heavily loaded against us.
Its a frigging shame CCP have accused us of ill intent here. EVE in my opinion is dying, and it cuts hard to of blown a couple of years into my character only to see what looks like a sunset to the great 0.0 adventure. Within a few months , a single alliance will control all of 0.0 space. BOB. Its also the team thats consistantly been shown to have been the recipient of CCP favors.
The way the game has recently been restructured, once that monopoly is complete, it wont be possible anymore to dislodge them. Conquest will be over, and thus so will EVE politics. The only reason to play the game. Capital ships alone can remove an alliances hold on 0.0, and those capital ships can only be made or used in 0.0. With no capital ships, 0.0 is irrevokably lost. It cuts that CCP seem to of done this on purpose. We had such high hope for the game as a long term entity.
Im sorry, but there are tens of thousands of players who have all bore witness to this nonsense.
My prediction is CCP goes belly up within a year.
It was fun whilst it lasted.
about 3 years ago
On the funny side, one day n the future CCP is going to look around and suddenly realise what they’ve done to themselves.
Probably not long after large chunks of BoB go “There’s nobody left to fight. This is boring. I quit”
about 3 years ago
It comes down to who I trust more, CCP or the degenerates over at SomethingAwful.
I’ll go with the Goons every goddamn time, because CCP has already proven themselves to be unscrupulous shitbags.
about 3 years ago
I, for one, welcome our new BoB overlords.
about 3 years ago
The sky is falling….
Its fun in mmo’s when some of the players for some reason feel wronged, or woke up on a bad day, and drama ensues… then it just grows from there.
I would have thought the goons were better than this, but at least they show organization
about 3 years ago
The reason the Goons might have to pull this out, to all of you who say “they are part of the game, why would they want to bring it down?” is, that in FACT, they are NOT part of the game!
They are an elitist part of the SA.com forums. They have no identification with the game whatsoever, they have not even tried to merge with the EVE community. Proof is that they do not allow any members that have not been part of the SA.com forums for quite some time in.
What sort of allegiance can they have to EVE? They got into EVE’s biggest war, have been metagaming ever since and as they are on the losing side they have recurred to blatant lies even against the company that holds the game! With the idea that if they sink, EVE will sink with them.
Do you think that posting 4000 threads on a forum that displays around 30 threads per page is not spam? Do you think i would not be threatened with legal action if i posted 4000 replies to EVERY single thread in this site, for spamming? Do you believe my posts won’t be deleted by the webmaster? C’mon, if I pulled that out right now you would want to kick the crap out of me!
I do not believe CCP has “fabricated” evidence at all. That would put them even lower than those guys from the Dark & Light MMORPG. Do you honestly think they would do it?
And about RP being rigged, of course the course of the storyline is rigged! You can take 2 approaches when DMing, having everything scripted or reacting to random events the players might bring about. On a massive game like EVE, just reacting to the players won’t cut it.
They also have a backstory to cover and if something does not go their way, they will not let it go out of hands just because.
Guys, get real. The goons are crap, they must not be allowed to take the game down with them.
about 3 years ago
You’re trying to argue against ranting about Dev/GM corruption…on Lum’s own blog?
Interesting.
about 3 years ago
“They are an elitist part of the SA.com forums. They have no identification with the game whatsoever, they have not even tried to merge with the EVE community. Proof is that they do not allow any members that have not been part of the SA.com forums for quite some time in”
Just to reply to this, DS1 (the goonswarm sub-corp that wanted to know why sharkbait was in their corp) isn’t an SA-related corp at all. They’re ex-ASCN I think and were recruited to the swarm entirely in-game.
about 3 years ago
That’s a full corp, not random players into GOONs corps. The SA.com corps remain untouched. It’s not the same.
about 3 years ago
I’m having Shadowbane Flashbacks to the WAR server at go live.
The DHL Alliance took over the entire server and just about killed it. Eventually the alliance split up, but the server was mortally wounded. Looks like the same thing will happen here.
about 3 years ago
How often do you manage to get the company PR department to help you piss in the swimming pool?
about 3 years ago
Scott asked: What proof would suffice?
The unfortunate truth for CCP is there is little they can do in the way of a single action or single bit of evidence that is going to restore their credibility. That’s really what is at the heart of the issue, not that an indecent happened but that another incident happened and going on the attack against players isn’t helping the perception of their company.
While I am sympathetic to CCPs position, the responsibility of restoring and maintaining credibility as a company is with them. Though I wish we could trust other players to behave this way, the onus of behaving in a mature and professional manner is on CCP and they continue with this incident to display the same aggressive and flippant manner they have in the past. This kind of behavior is part of the reason people are so willing to believe they could conduct themselves so poorly in the first place.
about 3 years ago
Wow, the Drama goes on and on.
CCP has found its “Kobayashi_Maru,” its in a no win situation. Now can they pull a James T Kirk and beat it?
As far as the whole dismissal of this one volunteer reporter, this is no different than any in-game petition about a player’s mis-conduct, no company should ever release the full details of what happened to anyone but the person the action is being taken against. Volunteer or not the community has no right to knowledge about actions taken against anyone person. Everyone seems to forget this. There is a huge assumption being made here as to how and why this person was dismissed, the MSN part of it is probably something that was blown way out of proportion.
As to someone’s comments about there needing to be a policy for Devs / Staff to not have people from one guild on their MSN list.. that’s absurd. The Devs have players they know to be worth while for feedback or that are friends on their lists. It doesn’t matter what’s happened in the past with one dev and one group and who’s in that group or isn’t. Banning communication against one group is an unfair act that would be just as damaging as banning communication with the community as a whole in any method outside of forum posts.
As Lum’s said over and over, its not uncommon, hell I’ve got developers and community staffers from 6 different games (including EvE) on my various IM lists, it doesn’t mean I’m getting anything special in game out of it.
(btw I don’t play EvE, tried the 14 day trial and didn’t have the time to devote to it)
The worst part about all this is the player speculations.. most of the people posting are going off wild assumptions. This more than anything will simply cause the whole situation to deteriorate faster and faster.
about 3 years ago
In cases like this, I always side with those with the best spelling ability. Sure, it’s unfair. But, all else being equal, it applies Darwinian pressures in the correct direction.
about 3 years ago
“As Lum’s said over and over, its not uncommon, hell I’ve got developers and community staffers from 6 different games (including EvE) on my various IM lists, it doesn’t mean I’m getting anything special in game out of it. ”
Yeah, but in this case they admitted to getting something special — they got a petition handled extra-quickly, if nothing else. And CCP should really know better than to do ANY favors for BoB at this point.
about 3 years ago
Devs playing their own game = A Good Thing.
Devs cheating at their own game = A Bad Thing.
It’s pretty simple, really.
about 3 years ago
SA Goons get all the good drama…
Anxiously awaiting Tweety’s comments on all of this
about 3 years ago
Who admitted they were getting something special?
You say so because the BOB guy bragged about getting on the msn to have the ISD banned? And some other members then bragged about having DEVs on their MSN?
Fair enough, but as you can see in the evidence CCP provided, there was a PETITION raised in between. It was not “hey, my favorite DEV, this ISD guy is annoying me, ban him please” on the msn.
And what if the petition was quickly attended to? I have had petitions answered within minutes in times when everybody complained the petition queue was inmense! NO, i do not have DEVs friends at all!
What I see here, is the poor judgement on part of that particular BOB member who bragged about his friendship with some CCP employees, specially using it as a pressure point in a conflicting situation which led to the dismissal of the ISD guy. This is what sprung this abysmal situation, this, and the opportunism of the GOONs to take advantage and manipulate the situation as they saw fit.
Including lying about the POS petition (manipulating facts again) and also firing accussations of RP being rigged (which is as hilarious as someone acussing the WWF of being rigged and everyone tagging along in the “SCANDAL”).
The DEVs do not cheat, except for that T20 guy. And he WAS caught, wasn’t he?
about 3 years ago
“THe only way that makes sense is if BoB and CCP are essentially the same entity.”
That seems to be one of the points of contention for a while now…
about 3 years ago
“The DEVs do not cheat, except for that T20 guy. And he WAS caught, wasn’t he?”
Uh. You really havent been following the drama have you?
about 3 years ago
You dont spend thousands of hours building a giant gaming organisation without wanting to test its power. Once the devs of a game with such dedicated hardcore guild leaders will happily go along with the devs for a few various mishaps and other problems, but there is a fine line which easily can be crossed when the organisation turns hostile for real.
When you feel like you have built your organisation enough other goals will direct the development of the guild. Often these are related to taking on powers above and fight the real battle. The leader can snap from hearing a wierd rumor, or having a friend getting banned for exploiting. If the game then supports the development of guilds with far more than thousands of active members even the devs can get in some real trouble.
about 3 years ago
I think it was proved that
1- The POS stuff was a Goon lie. There was indeed a petition.
2- That having the RP events scripted or not, is not cheating. CCP has the right to decide the backstory of their game and how it will evolve. If it is predefined who will win a RP encounter, then so be it.
3- The banning of the ISD guy was over an ingame PETITION and not an MSN chat. Regardless some people at BOB know the DEVs and talk to them and blah blah blah which has nothing to do with what the goons claimed.
about 3 years ago
I’am a eve – Player, I’am no Goon, no BOB no friend of both.
But that what CCP is talking is total Bullshit. Their Devs,GMs and ISD’ler are corrupting the game, they play in the giant Alliance and gave them internal tips so they can faster use special tactics and much more. This realy sucks.
I dont will probite CCP Employees to play the game but they dont should play on corps or alliances where they have such a BIG influence on the game.
about 3 years ago
People seem to be following this in a very halfarsed manner.
1) POS stuff: some contention about what the petition was over. Wouldn’t the Easy method of this be for CCP to send an evemail to the petitioning player saying “hey, goofball, it was this petition you put in”. Now it’s trusting the player to come forward to his corpmates, but as is it’s all wordplay. “you had a POS petition” “no we didn’t” “err, a bp petition” “yeah, a month ago..” Easy way to clean house is to simply tell the petitioning player what it was about, and talk to your people about talking with the CEO about it too.
2) Nobody’s said anything about the RP events being cheating in this case, it’s about them being declared open ended, but secretly being rigged to only have one ending. It may leave people Feeling cheated, but it’s entirely an issue about CCP’s event staff lying to the playerbase. Confirmed or Disproven, whatever. I can’t really figure out who is right in that one.
3) The ingame petition vs MSN chat thing is entirely subjective at this point. The banned ISD rep’s logs are damning, if true. It’s entirely simple (and I’ve done it in prior games!) to MSN your friend on the dev staff, he says put in a ticket, you do, and the dev you IMed immediately picks up that ticket and does it. It’s the same as calling a friend on the helpdesk, they want a ticket, but they can easily search your name in the queue and pick it up instantly. It IS cheating the system and using an out of game channel to get shit done quickly. I’ve never done anything like that to escalate a ticket in an MMO, but I have definately bitched to a DAOC contact to have a certain ToA ring brought to the item goddesses attention for having a really useless charge (mana 3 on a minstrel only quest reward, woo?). Out of game contact with players? Good. Using said contact to actively have shit go your way? Bad.
4) The entire reason this is a dramatic episode is a lack of closure on the t20 incident (Nothing Happened…. *t20 confesses* … Okay so that happened, but we knew at the time.. no, we didn’t just lie 15 minutes ago, trust us from now on.), followed by instantly deleting any thread simply asking about the sharkbait thing (not accusing, simply going “whyfor did sharkbait do this?”, deleted and banned.) The easy defusing of all this would have been a mod IMing sharkbait and saying “hay, why?” then posting “in response to a petition, sorry for the lack of communication”.
All of this comes down to PR, and CCP’s PR having knowingly lied in a prior incident to keep CCP from looking bad. At this point you have a HUGE barrier to cross to get people to instantly trust you. Instead they’re just brushing it aside like their reputation is completely clean and nobody would ever doubt their word.
about 3 years ago
I really don’t understand how people just *assume* BoB and the devs are cheating together. To respond to post 61, I mean…how exactly do you know that they are given internal tips?
CCP might not be the best at PR, but they’d have to be total morons to actively cheat at their own game. What sort of good business sense is that? It’s so outlandish, I just can’t believe it unless I see some hard evidence.
I’m willing to assume that CCP is at no fault. These *heard-it-through-the-grape-vine* accusations just aren’t enough for me.
about 3 years ago
“CCP might not be the best at PR, but they’d have to be total morons to actively cheat at their own game.”
That argument became reversed the moment t20 confessed. It’s not “how mad would they have to be to do this?” any more, it’s “how much other stuff are they mad enough to do now they’ve done this?”
about 3 years ago
The sad side effect of this situation is that BoB is the ONLY winner at the end of the day; either they gain credibility when their greatest detractor leaves, or they gain credibility because CCP ‘saved’ them from the ‘real’ bad guys. If even a hair of the allegations that BoB has *ever* recieved *any* favors from *any* dev at *any* time are true, then this assault on a single demographic is clearly the wrong message to send to the playerbase as a living entity, and as paying customers.
What happens next time, when it’s YOUR corp who is singled out for no response, then threatened with legal action IRL? BTW – legal action IRL? ROFL @ubvman’s illustration of asshattery (post #31)… the demonstrable hubris of a company who can’t keep its own devs from doling out freebies to pet players, and then threatens the RL material safety and well-being of a paying customer who challenges this obvious violation of trust and inequitable treatment, is absurd.
Regading the allegation that GF is ‘not a part of the community’… the mere posting of such an assertion puts the lie to itself. Just as surely as you pay your dues to play, they do too, and that makes them part of the community, including all of the attendant benefits of company support for reported issues. If not, then all of the claims GF has made are lent both legitimacy and consequence – and for any who contest such a neutral assessment, I suggest you step down from your soapbox and rejoin the community as an equal.
about 3 years ago
“Metagaming is for punks. Growing up in Chicago’s Little Italy neighborhood, I remember a guy trying to “metagame” while shooting craps. He got all the fingers on his shooting hand broken and an eye put out. Now that’s “hard core gaming”.”
You really don’t understand MMOs and large-pvp do ya. The Metagame is everything in Eve. It controls popular opinion, politics and who sides with who and for how long.
Lum, as mentioned, you missed the part where the complaint wasn’t about the petition actually answered, but about one that nobody recalls filing.
Ah well, the game’s over now, time to sell off the account to someone who’ll stick around for the bitter end.
about 3 years ago
Kalain has it right. Goonfleet was ready to accept a rational response from CCP if one was given. The whole ‘Threadnaught’ was a backup approach if no answer was recieved before. CCP has shown in the past that they’ll happily censor, edit, or outright ignore anything based upon their ‘sometimes applied, sometimes not’ EULA.
An EULA which is suspiciously flexible for certain individuals, such as the forbidden account sharing method, unless you really believe one person is playing the game constantly 23/7 and has a Multiple Disassociative Personality syndrome at the same time.
The enforcement and lawyering of the game is a laugh and most people know it.
As for the RP events, when they’re rigged and the players don’t know what side is rigged or which one will win in the end (Which can cost them significant amounts of ISK if they lose their ship), then there is something unfair about it.
about 3 years ago
Purina, legal action threat is probably because of forum spamming (thousands of threads in pages that only display 30 threads each). Those threads were nothing less than coordinated attacks. They had to take the forums down to eventually delete them all. Even if it is not, it reminds me of DoS attacks. It can cost a company money, *any* company, and as such they have the right to sue the perpretarors.
Hundreds of diffamayory threads on other sites, also coordinated (at the same time as the previous ones) can also be tagged as libel.
Of course, I am not into laws, i admit it, but i doubt CCP will just go forward with this. They might just be warning them that if they continue with the same stuff, then they could really be targets of legal action.
But legal action is definitely not for attacking BOB or stating a point of view on the forums, in a NORMAL WAY (NORMAL WAY != THOUSANDS OF SPAM POSTS).
How childish do you think they are?
about 3 years ago
“How childish do you think they are?”
At this precise moment?
about 3 years ago
My favorite part about this whole thing is that the SA folks somehow think that the game is over because they don’t want to play anymore. EVE was around long before they got there, and will be around long after they leave. A belief in the importance in oneself does not necessarily equate to that belief being true.
about 3 years ago
See, when you come out saying ‘The Devs don’t cheat except for that one time’ you’ve lost all your fucking credibility.
I’m amazed you don’t get that.
about 3 years ago
Goonfleet once had a GM join their forums on a lark. Within a day he was threatened with being fired if he stayed. This is the extent of the Goonfleet interaction with CCP. Seems pretty fair that BoB gets IM access to the same people.
about 3 years ago
The Mittani is the Henry Kissinger of the EVE community. Not only is is EVE a better place without him, but the smell of information doesn’t reek of lies and deception.
If he really wants ruin EVE all he needs to do is keep up his account and actually play the game. That would do it.
about 3 years ago
Threatened by whom?
about 3 years ago
CCP, of course.
about 3 years ago
“See, when you come out saying ‘The Devs don’t cheat except for that one time’ you’ve lost all your fucking credibility.”
Who’s “the devs”? All of them? That one guy t20? One guy named t20 is an idiot and all the sudden “OMG all of CCP is CHEATING!” It’s pretty sad when one guy stands for the entire development team. You are right about one thing…because of this one guy, t20, people perceive the devs the same way you do.
about 3 years ago
As the sotry goes, Goons met a GM at a fanfest, make friends (I’m sure like everyone else on the series of tubes, they’re nice folks in person).
GM registers forum account, laughs it up (someone posted all said GM’s posts on goonfleet’s forums, they seemed harmless if that was all of it), GM is informed by his boss that he’ll be canned unless he leaves those forums immediately. GM requests his forum account be deleted.
It simply makes the “associate with whoever you like outside the game” thing hollow, like not all of CCP is playing on the same ethics rulebook. Either you can chat with friends all you like outside the game world, or you can’t chat with friends as a known CCP employee. Pick, and enforce equally. The logical one is “post anywhere you like, just no altering the game world for friends, duh.” But as is, it looks as if at the very least the GM’s boss had some hatred for either posting on message boards, or Goons, and cracked down on that GM.
about 3 years ago
@77:
No, at CCP’s PR. They clearly stated “Nobody cheats nothing bad happened” about the t20 incident.
HOURS later, t20 confesses. CCP’s PR changes it’s story to “yeah, we knew about THAT when it happened, and just didn’t do anything”
THAT kills your credability. And a PR rep with no credability is completely worthless to a company, because you’ve now got a huge “prove you’re not lying to me AGAIN” wall to climb.
The t20 thing didn’t destroy CCP’s reputation because t20 cheated. It destroyed it because CCP knew about it and kept it quiet, then when faced with evidence lied about it, then when t20 finally confessed they played the poor innocent victim, when all of it would have been spun in their favor if they just burned him at the stake when they first caught him, or at least copped to it. Lying and getting caught is just PR suicide.
about 3 years ago
Meh, it’s impossible to discuss on any level. Goonz are the ultimate Troll, chuckling, net-savy, eric cartmans, rotten to the core and proud of it. As a long time EVE player it’s delicious to see them feel so done-wrong by, and the faster they actually carry through with their threats and leave EVE, the sooner we can go back to pewpewing with our pixalated spaceships, having fun.
Just like we did before the Goonz came.
about 3 years ago
“JuJutsu | 30-May-07 at 10:15 am | Permalink
“THe only way that makes sense is if BoB and CCP are essentially the same entity.”
That seems to be one of the points of contention for a while now…
”
Yeah. My point is that since that argument makes sense to CCP, clearly that’s how CCP sees things, at least on some level.
IN other hilarious news, “Pos bowling” with titans — repeatedly declared a non-exploit as long as BoB titans were doing it — just got declared an exploit. Why? Because Evil Thug did it to BoB. . . .it’s biases like that that are why the whole MSN list thing is so important. They aren’t just contacts — they’re friends, and the developers see the game through the lens of BoB and allies first, everyone else second.
about 3 years ago
“The t20 thing didn’t destroy CCP’s reputation because t20 cheated. It destroyed it because CCP knew about it and kept it quiet, then when faced with evidence lied about it, then when t20 finally confessed they played the poor innocent victim, when all of it would have been spun in their favor if they just burned him at the stake when they first caught him, or at least copped to it. Lying and getting caught is just PR suicide.”
Plus, you know, T20 still has his job at CCP (*whisper* and only had his play-character moved to Corelli Corp. – who are BoB pets. */whisper*)
about 3 years ago
This is the natural progression of this sort of large scale PvP game. One alliance WILL achieve domination. They start winning, most players want to be winners, so the join the winning alliance. Things snowball. If one of the loosing alliances is organized enough (duh, this IS large scale PvP), they will claim that $EMPIRE_ALLIANCE is only winning because they have help from the devs. CCP already having a PR black eye does not help matters. Will a PAX BoB endure forever when all of 0.0 is under their control? Large primate social dynamics dictate that it will not.
about 3 years ago
Yeah, CCP are failing to learn what the rest of us learned years ago:
- You NEVER delete threads unless you absolutely have to. You merge, lock, edit, etc, but you NEVER delete. Deleting, as Lum says, makes you look like you’re hiding something. It’s better to flame and abuse your customers than to delete their comments (it’s also more fun).
- You reply QUICKLY to problems. Even if it’s just a “we’re going to look into it”.
- In a team based game MAKE SURE if you’re talking to one side you are talking to the other as well. If the devs have BOBs on MSN, they should ensure they have a couple of goons on there as well. This could have prevented a lot of the agro we see now.
Silly CCP. They’re losing customers because of this.
Calistas
about 3 years ago
That’s the worst part – the overwhelming majority of CCP isn’t corrupt, just inept.
Firing their community manager and replacing him with someone even vaguely suited to the role would be nice, though…I haven’t seen overt hatred towards the playerbase like this since days of yore when Abashi bestrode Whineplay like an angry colossus.
about 3 years ago
This all just so…ugly. From every angle, even assuming no intentional wrongdoing on either side. While I don’t like to go judging when all I have is information from two biased sources, it seems like better communication and better organization could have made this into a non-issue. I will say that there’s a lot of conjecture going on in that Goonfleet statement. The ire over who has which CCP employee on MSN in particular–do you know how many people LIE and say they have X dev or CM or GM on instant message? There’s no way anyone can know for sure who’s talking to whom on private channels.
about 3 years ago
The difference is, I lie and say “zomg, I’ll call my dev friend on you”, and nothing happens.
When someone goes “zomg, I’ll call my dev friend on you”, and a DEV SHOWS UP, there’s a problem. A major, firing offense level problem.
about 3 years ago
Kalain: What if you lie and say, “zomg, I’ll call my dev friend on you” and then a dev just happens to show up? Maybe because someone else filed a complaint through the correct channels?
I’m not saying that’s what happened here, but I’m saying that it DOES happen. I’ve seen it happen first-hand, from the dev point of view.
Player A files an abuse report, “Player B is cheating.” In-game support begins investigating. Meanwhile player C says to player B, “Dude dont mess with me I know someone at the company!”, total bluff. But then player B gets banned for cheating. What happens? Player B posts on every forum imaginable about the horrible terrible unfair cheating gits who work for the developer.
Again, I’m not saying that’s what happened re: CCP. I’m just saying that it DOES happen, I’ve seen it happen, and it sucks. People just LOVE to believe in conspiracies.
about 3 years ago
Ibn,
The problem with EVE is that petitions normally take WEEKS to resolve, and here’s BoB saying, “We’ll sic a dev on you”, and lo & behold, one shows up in minutes.
I’m willing to believe in coincidences, but only so far.
about 3 years ago
GMs are demanding to know the ingame persons name who wrote the follow up reply for goonswarm.
Looking to ban someone for writing on a website like they did kugutsumen?
OR
To tell him what a great article he wrote?
about 3 years ago
Meh. Goonz are on a web campaign. No real debate can be had. They don’t want debate.
I’m content to let the company that makes their living off of EVE, the company that created it…. to manage it. Goonz are a web phenom, and a poisonous one at that. To suggest that Goonz are the arbiters of law and fairness in this situation…
Gah.
o/ Goonz. Keep up the post’n.
about 3 years ago
I will be curious to see what kind of fallout all of this negative PR has on the next game released from CCP. I have always thought that EVE’s drama on forums far exceeds its player base. How many of these people will seriously consider avoiding future CCP games because of the perception of developer cheating in the company?
Bad word of mouth about a game can kill it in its infancy, but what about bad word of mouth about the company creating it?
about 3 years ago
What amazes me most about this thread are the people responding to reports of dev misfeasance (if not malfeasance) by saying “GoonFleet are assholes, so they deserve it.”
It’s this kind of puerile ends-justify-the-means argument that leads to REALLY big trouble.
about 3 years ago
Love the taste of game breaking drama popcorn. Played the game a bit, but it never quite caught. Still, with all of the stuff going on in all of the forums, it gives the best empirical proof to the question:
“If God exists, why dosn’t he answer prayers anymore?”
(Too much drama).
about 3 years ago
One point I haven’t seen anyone make about CCP’s implied threat that they might sue Goons over the threadnaut: anyone who posts on the Eve forum has *paid* for the privilege to do so.
Suing your customer for using the product he paid for isn’t a good idea.
And as for all the bad publicity killing off Eve…I expect thousands of gamers will check out the free trial to see what all the fuss is about. Eve will grow, not die, because of this scandal.
about 3 years ago
I think EVE is the true test of “Any publicity is good publicity.” I think in this instance the old maxim will prove incorrect. I would expect their number of new subscriptions will drop, but time will tell who is correct.
The often misquoted, “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me” will go into effect in my opinion. People who would have forgiven CCP for the single T20 incident are not likely to forgive again.
Anyone following EVE from the outside will not likely see an isolated developer cheating incident, but a continuing problem within the company itself.
I would place a fair man’s bet that in six months EVE has less subscribers than it did before this incident. I believe that EVE has entered its decline, but only time will tell. What is certain is CCP has definitely not helped its cause.
about 3 years ago
you lost me completely when you said “PvP games are serious business”.
about 3 years ago
If it achieves nothing else (like that’s a daring prediction), this whole mess has at least given the world final conclusive proof of the First Corollary to Hanlon’s Law: Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.
about 3 years ago
Damn, when you use 18 point type against a white background you KNOW they’re serious.
about 3 years ago
Viz if you take a look at the Eve forums you will find that most people are polarized into two seperate camps on this issue and in game. Due to the nature of the game there is very little respect for the other side and trolling is rampant. Add in the fact that you can post as anon as you want and you come up with a whole bunch of fingerpointing and very little intelligent discussion. The chances of either group seeing eye-to-eye is small enough but CCP’s constant mishandling of their playerbase makes it even worse.
For all the labels goonfleet has, name one group of people who would introduce thousands of people to a game just because they thought it was a terrible product and wanted to destroy it (goonsLOL). Because of the way character progression works it would be more effective to create trial accounts to destroy the server and enjoyment of others then it is to lose a paid account.
about 3 years ago
“It’s this kind of puerile ends-justify-the-means argument that leads to REALLY big trouble.”
Well it is used constantly in the government and seems to work out. Least for some.
Pvp games are like this. Its a given really. Story of dev cheating at their own game strikes me as a ‘well duh’. With so many ‘hidden’ mechanics to the overall system its a forgone conclusion despite protests to contrary. Individuals may or may not but there’s a lot of individuals involved, and that means a lot of different moralities.
about 3 years ago
Gotta say, the Goonfleet open letter response today was masterful. CCP would do well to take a lot of the suggestions to heart and reverse course on their heavy-handed tactics in response to complaints.
about 3 years ago
The thing about the volunteer getting banned is bad only if the person who did it did not follow a process that was supposed to be in place.
It sounds to me like more than anything, CCP needs a code of conduct.
about 3 years ago
I like how people here buy into the issue that the ISD reporter was banned over the petition, and not because BoB has (admitted) direct access to Developers. Did you see the ingame petition? Notice how fast it went to a Senior GM? Anyone with CS experience in any game knows that a petition of ‘hay guys this guy is bumping me please ban him’ doesn’t directly go to a Senior GM. The timing of his firing is also highly suspect.
Developer contact in Eve is also not like any other game, so lets stop comparing it. DAOC, EQ, UO, do not have a single persistent universe where items cost as much as small cars. When I spend 3 months saving for a certain ship, I don’t like the feeling that I didn’t even have a chance to win in the first place.
Everyone should also look at the fact that when BoB was “POS Bowling” it was a ‘feature’, but when their 10B investment was bowled out and destroyed, shortly after it becomes an exploit.
about 3 years ago
“The thing about the volunteer getting banned is bad only if the person who did it did not follow a process that was supposed to be in place.”
Point to ponder: ISD bloke (accidentally bumps a BoB dread once) gets dismissed within a day; T20 (spawns T2 BPOS for BoB, leads their cap fleet for half a year) still works for CCP.
about 3 years ago
Regarding BoB members having a direct pipe to developers via MSN:
The fact that you communicated with DAoC players on MSN has no bearing on the current situations.
Why?
In DAoC, developer interference in the game could fall in one of the categories:
Subtle, easily hidden, but with little impact on the game. So what if Johnny gets a nice ML10 drop from a rogue dev or GM? It kinda sucks, but to be honest that has a minimal impact on the game.
Obvious, impossible to hide, major impact on the game. (I refer to your comment about flipping relics. If that happened it would be IMMEDIATELY obvious to the entire playerbase.)
In DAoC, there’s no “subtle, easy to hide, but gives a group a major advantage” category. Hell, even giving a player 200 plat won’t impact the overall balance of the game in RvR much if at all.
In EVE, on the other hand, there are plenty of such cases where a rogue developer can do massive damage to the balance of power in the game without being very detectable. See the t20 incident – those tech 2 blueprint originals were effectively licenses to print money to feed BoB’s war machine, permanently and irrevocably altering the balance of power in 0.0 on a significant scale. Since there are only 20 or so T2 BPOs of each item in the game and it’s hard to tell who exactly has them, it’s impossible for the playerbase to detect that somehow someone wound up with an extra 21st original that they shouldn’t have. CCP totally botched the t20 incident – t20 is still with the company, and while the licenses to print money were removed, the massive amounts of wealth they transferred to BoB was not dealt with.
For this reason, scandals that would have been a non-issue in games like DAoC (due to the minimal impact a rogue developer could have) become major issues in EVE.
about 3 years ago
Sorry for the double post, but I saw one comment I had to reply to:
“CCP has found its “Kobayashi_Maru,” its in a no win situation. Now can they pull a James T Kirk and beat it?”
No, it’s not a Kobayashi Maru. It is not a no-win situation by any means, it’s easy for them to win:
1) Stop the attempted coverups (deletion of posts rather than locking/editing)
2) Stop trying to whitewash accusations by only addressing them partially.
3) Don’t ever lie when denying accusations again (t20)
4) Take a *retroactive* hardline stance on developer misconduct. (t20)
For many players, distrust of CCP (and hence the ability of these allegations to stick and get support from the playerbase) stems from the fact that it is a known truth that at least one developer has been caught cheating and nothing was done about it. If t20′s employment had been terminated as it should have been, things would be VERY different.
about 3 years ago
Oddly enough, everytime i see these things flame up about EVE and cheating and all that, all I think of is … “Eve.. Damnit, I wish I had time to play that game.”
about 3 years ago
At work and can’t read the Goon reply or anything at the main forums. Hoping the drama wont be deleted before I get home
(Pesky filters)
about 3 years ago
Just read the Goon Letter, I think a very valid well thought out piece of work.
I definitely think Sanya should go work for CCP.
about 3 years ago
jerrett Eve is indeed an awesome game. There is a reason that Goonfleet has been able to recruit over 2000 Goons off of something awful. Unfortunately the learning curve is extremely steep and the Old Guard of Eve has always looked down on anyone that hasnt been playing since beta.
about 3 years ago
Here is an interesting “State of Goonation” Address. It speaks volumes about Goonies.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0705/badboyzwhatcahgoingtod0.mp3
Enjoy
about 3 years ago
Hmm; Maybe CCP wants one alliance to take all of 0.0 space and then will roll out the “next big thing” based on it. It really looks like the company has been pushing for this for a while. Hey they fix the RP why not for the story arc they want; why not the PvP as well? So BoB takes all of 0.0; The jovians invade in 3 months.
On another note; I doubt that CCP could terminate T20′s employement without that materially impacting their business. In development you find certain engineers and developers that produce more than the rest of the team. They are hard to find and you dont let them go. At the time I guessed that he was one of these. They should make him continue to play, but require him to blog everything he does.
All of this still stinks. The bpo’s that BoB got should have been pulled back immediatly. The apology didn’t fix that problem. That was when they lost all their credibility. They need to work fast to rebalance the game and nerf all of BoB’s strengths. They don’t seem to be able or willing to fix it any other way.
about 3 years ago
You dont understand how awesome it is to read this. This is like Heroes* Desperate Housewives.
More CCP! More!
about 3 years ago
Andrew Dodd, shut up. You, like many other EVE players, take the game far too seriously. “EVE is serious business and all other MMORPGs are careb34r!!1″ I am so damn sick of that statement and attitude.
Any game that has players interacting together is effected when/if a developer interferes. Everyone that has worked to achieve their own success is cheated when someone else does not have to work for it.
The biggest problem with EVE is not CCP. The problem is the elite players that have taken over the game and imported the claim that they “own” EVE. The only fault of CCP is letting their players take over the game by not drawing a clear line in the proverbial sand about what is and what is not acceptable. Right now it is anything goes, so developer interference and attacking CCP’s credibility are all fair game.
about 3 years ago
I admit it: This story piqued my interest, and I ended up reactivating my Eve account.
about 3 years ago
@Slowpoke – Your justifications for CCP keeping t20 are EXACTLY why he should be fired and banned. Technical expertise cannot be cited as a justification for corruption without acknowledging the ultimate result of no end to the “ends justifies the means” razor. Genious or germ, he’s more dead weight now than any other single aspect of Eve/CCP, and his continued presence is having THIS effect on the community at large. It’s not worth it.
@Heartless – Your post IMO represents the fascinating dichotomy between the mentality of those who *understand* the effects they experience ingame, versus the *resons* for those feelings.
Without getting directly into the guts of human nature, let me simply say this: your assessment of a corrupt player base being responsible for the state of affairs in Eve – a publicly marketed product that we are all supposed to be paying to play – is a slap in the face of the players upon whose behalf you appear to comment. We depend on CCP to oversee its own affairs in business, and this includes policing its own internal affairs and developments.
The controls you appear to endorse MUST be put in place by CCP, or they just don’t exist. Think of crime and police in real life: a community who does not enforce its own rules has no one but itself to blame for an increase in crime. The terrible thing about Eve is that, even when the residents go and buy a gun to protect themselves, CCP changes the rules in favor of their pet, and nerfs OUR ammo, thus devaluing our paid dues.
about 2 years ago
Never trust a goon. Thats all I have to say.
about 2 years ago
Thread necromancy!!!
about 2 years ago
Go away, Merkwudigliebe.
about 2 years ago
I’m not the necromancer here.
about 2 years ago
eve is a joke plain and simple.
their latest push is to stop the sale of isk and to do that, they’ve decided to sell it themselves.
they fail to mention that every single isk dollar is generated in teh game and sold by players to other players. in essence, they merely want that action and don’t want people to sell their isk to each other.
the don’t speak to huge corporations who front their members millions or any of the other number of things around the matter.
but mostly, they don’t talk about how all of it comes form inside the game which renders their point moot and pointless. Most idiotic thing ever really, I cancelled my sub within 3 weeks of having it off trial.
most bogus mmo ever despite the cool software and great graphics. just run by a bunch of idiots that can’t be pros. too bad.
about 2 years ago
After i play sometimes they delete my charecter for no reason. Why is that?