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Angst Amongst The Gold Farms
Julian Dibbell, author and UO gold monger, was recently interviewed by the Escapist, and he wants you to know that you gamers hurt him deeply.
More than anything, he seems bemused by the occasional blast of negative attention paid to the industry he worked in and documented. “I’m certainly aware that RMT [real money trade] and people who actively engage in it are hated by a significant faction … of gamers and game developers,” he says. “I quote Mark Jacobs standing up at E3 in 2003 and saying that he hates the RMT market with ‘every bone in his body.’ So, there you go.
And more personally…
“I have an assignment from the New York Times Magazine to write about the Chinese gold farms. And I went to a few of them, and I actually pulled a shift at a leveling shop. And, you know, not a half hour into my shift playing as some European player’s gnome mage, I was spat upon,” via the game’s emote system, “by one of my fellow players.”
He says it was different during the time he was writing the book. “For one thing, I was working in Ultima Online, which has a different culture about this stuff, right? The gold, the RMT market has been tolerated there from the get-go. It was even kind of encouraged in the beginning. … For another thing, you know, it just kind of rolls off my back, to the extent that people do single us out for opprobrium.” Indeed, he seems like a very laid-back, affable guy that just happened to indulge in a trade that gets the MMOG industry spitting mad.
He also, apparently, thinks I don’t write very well.
He describes the arguments against the RMT industry as “often very crude. … They’re along the lines of, ‘Hey, I worked my way up to level 60, and then daddy’s little rich kid comes along and bought his way up to level 60, and that takes away the meaning of my achievement.’…
…let’s look at the metrics by which you’re measuring achievement. Everyone knows that MMOGs are tests of your ability to sit on your ass in a chair for a week, or whatever it takes to get to level 60. If someone has the will to do that, or the time to do that, more power to them. If somebody has the commitment to the game to plunk down $800 or $1,000, that’s a kind of crazed obsession, too. I’m perfectly willing to honor either way of measuring [that].
“And furthermore, it’s such a limiting view of the complexity and open-endedness of these games to say that it’s all about getting to level 60 or Warlord or whatever you get to before the other guy does. There’s so many ways to play these games and so many reasons to play these games that if you think that’s what the game is entirely about, that’s fine, but that doesn’t define it for everybody else who’s involved.”
When asked what developers could do to stop RMT:
[He] uses one example he’s gotten from the farmers themselves, such as “completely anonymous trades. [Make] the auction house the only way to trade, and [make it] completely anonymous, so there’s no mapping an eBay buyer onto an in-game player,” though he acknowledges that would be “breaking the socialization effect of the economy.”
So, destroy the village so we can save it. Gotcha. But the kicker:
“My impression is that the anti-RMT stuff is stronger in America than it is anywhere else, even more than Europe. … I think it has a lot to do with American culture’s kind of Horatio Alger individualist pretensions. You know, you come into the world and everybody starts off on equal footing, and you raise yourself up by your bootstraps, and nobody has family money to help them along.”
Paying money to gold farmers to short-circuit gameplay, of course, being so much more rational, worldly and European an attitude. Maybe it could be like a tax. Only, you know, not paid to the government. OK, so Russia’s in Europe, so the metaphor could still work. Sort of. Oh wait, I’m making crude anti-RMT arguments again, sorry!
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about 3 years ago
Goddamnit, someone make him die already.
DIE, JULIAN DIBBELL, DIE.
about 3 years ago
He’s funny, let him alome.
And secondly, the industry really does keep making games that are tests only of stamina, so his obsession analogy is borne out.
Maybe making one where playing was fun rather than grind would help?
about 3 years ago
“Paying money to gold farmers to short-circuit gameplay”
Because people shouldn’t WANT to bypass the gameplay, and how the hell do I get off this treadmill anyway, and such?
Come on Lum, you CAN do better than that.
Also, J, your hatred amuses me.
about 3 years ago
He got spat on. I think that’s awesome. I wish I could tell who’s an RMT character so I could spit on them too. Unfortunately I can’t tell, so I just have to spit on everybody.
about 3 years ago
In WoW, people seem to identify the gold farmers as anyone who’s level 60, solo, and killing stuff that the accuser wants to kill.
Lost a race to a herb? The other guy is a gold farmer!
about 3 years ago
Quote: “Everyone knows that MMOGs are tests of your ability to sit on your ass in a chair for a week, or whatever it takes to get to level 60″
He’s dead on there.
about 3 years ago
In fact, gold farming wouldn’t even work if MMOs tested anything other than time in chair. You can’t buy your way to excellence in Counter Strike, can you?
about 3 years ago
Awwww, let him live. He’s a damn good writer, and he’s cute.
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about 3 years ago
The problem is that challenging gameplay (e.g., top-quality simulations) requires putting much of the game work in the client’s hands, which is anathema to MMOG design (for obvious reasons).
The idiom “don’t trust the client” needs to evolve to “trust but verify” (followed eventually, no doubt, by a period of peristroika…) in order to advance challenging gameplay.
about 3 years ago
“The problem is that challenging gameplay (e.g., top-quality simulations) requires putting much of the game work in the client\’e2\’80\’99s hands, which is anathema to MMOG design (for obvious reasons).”
That is assuming that challenging gameplay requires a complex local client. I don’t think it does. Chess, for example, works fine. Also, Puzzle Pirates. All you need is non-trivial solo play. Of course most people (who don’t already play Chess/Counterstrike) can’t be bothered learning difficult gameplay so you don’t get 6M subscribers.
about 3 years ago
Nope, but then CS hacks are generally free.
A better analogy is money can’t make you a better baseball player but it can buy you a team that probably can win you a trophy and/or glory. (see George Steinbrenner)
about 3 years ago
It doesn’t matter how “fun” you THINK you have made a game, people will still participate in RMT. There will always be a portion of your game that somebody will find boring and worth skipping.
That’s where RMT is born. The fact that you can’t satisfy everyone all the time. In fact, if you make a portion of the game the most “fun” evaaar, people will pay to skip right to it!
Plus, saying, “Make the game more fun!” is such a cop out statement. That theory will never be proven out and will never happen, so it is very easy to say. Congratulations.
about 3 years ago
I don’t understand all the derision, I thought it was a well written piece that makes several well-reasoned arguements in favor of RMT.
As far as I can tell, hatred of RMT seems to be more of a religion for most people than a reasoned stance. It’s a matter of faith for which no evidence or arguement is needed, only the belief that the other side is evil is required. I just don’t get it.
about 3 years ago
Yeah, you’d think European values would be against RMT as being evil and capitalist and ruining the fun of others.
I’d expect European servers to automatically create a max level character so that no one has to suffer the indignity of working your way up.
Either that, or the experience is relative like PvP was in WoW, and your XP points are taxed every week during maintenance and given to lower level players, so you have to keep gaining to try to stay at lvl 60, and lower level characters can sit on their butts gaining xp. (and since everyone can have 10 chars per server …)
/gets flame suit on
about 3 years ago
“only the belief that the other side is evil is required. I just don\’e2\’80\’99t get it.”
Because you have obviously never read an argument against it, just silly flame wars.
The more gold bought from the RMT enters a server, the more inflation you get. Sure gold is created “out of thin air” in wow (but then it is here too since we got off the gold standard) but it is a much slower process when players must get it themselves, this limits the inflation. But RMT causes it to skyrocket, that and it forces more players to use RMT to get their gold instead of using the game mechanics to get their gold, causing a cycle. Blizzard (and other companies) then being pricing items in game (like mounts) based on the assumption that RMT bought gold will be used, causing it to be even more difficult for those who don’t engage in it to play the game. So pretty soon players who do not engage in RMT have a hard time competing and spend a lot of time grinding for gold where other players are using that time to become more powerful or use dollars to buy power.
Of course inflation is also caused by the level cap. Some items go down in value, but whether that’s due to RMT or the level cap I don’t know.
about 3 years ago
RMT is a black market created by denying people the things they want.
If games provided a logical and fun path to the things players wanted, RMT would die.
Am I the only one who realizes that MMRPGs create the things and the means for the things players desire?
Get the means out of sync with the thing and guess what, a black market is born because the means to the end sucks.
about 3 years ago
Gold farming is unavoidable in DIKU setting where time commitment is one of the yardsticks of advancement.
about 3 years ago
Actually, I think he pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why a lot of people are against RMT.
\’e2\’80\’a6 I think it has a lot to do with American culture\’e2\’80\’99s kind of Horatio Alger individualist pretensions. You know, you come into the world and everybody starts off on equal footing, and you raise yourself up by your bootstraps, and nobody has family money to help them along.
Like that’s a bad thing. There’s a big historical reason that “American culture” values that sort of thing, after all.
about 3 years ago
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world (of Warcraft) that skills come from sitting on their asses.
Which is ultimate goal of these games?
-Creating a generation of cattle
-Creating a generation of masochists
Either way:
Let them milk the cows
Let them torture the self-haters
In the end, the solution is adware,
-Seismus
about 3 years ago
Fidtz: OK, chess is engaging, but we’re talking MMOGs, not two-person games.
Complex systems can all be done server-side but again designers walk the narrow edge between their systems’ responsiveness and game complexity.
Another real concern inhibiting game complexity is also related to the untrustworthiness of the customer; nearly all systems that allow flexibility also allow users to abuse it; I was reading a bit today about UO where allowing houses to be broken into also allowed some sort of exploit involving a healer outside of a building. As a result designers trying to avoid angry non-exploiting customers tend to design ways to *limit* gameplay, with the result that players are channeled into the approved gameplay modes.
This produces the ‘grind’ effect as people can’t approach their role-playing game in an open fashion.
I think most would agree that a restrictive system that works is more fun than an open system where griefers make your game time hell, but that’s part of the dilemma.
Upshot is: *when* the gameplay is repetitive and time-driven, people look for ways to ways to get past the tedium – the thrice-damned RMT market is one of the results.
about 3 years ago
The rationale for prohibiting RMT from MMOs is parallel to that of prohibiting use of performance-enhancing drugs from athletic competition.
A fair and equitable start is preferable for a game to be the most fun. RMT spoils games, not because of simplistic reasons, but the emergent results of complex ones – which are often simplified and given folk-belief explanations for why they happen. Unfairness is something humans (and other primates, research has shown) instinctively dislike because it has complex and insidious negative effects both on those who benefit and those who lose out (mainly the latter, of course, but also the former).
I also think Dibbell is being disingenuous when he implies that there are no sophisticated arguments against RMT. I’m pretty sure he’s read quite a few of them, on terranova if nowhere else.
about 3 years ago
Every time someone mentions RMT, Grinding, botting I remember how common it was in UO or SWG. As far as I could tell coming in, no one cared. You could ask someone right outside the bank or cantina and they would tell you how to do it.
I really wish WoW had some kind of premade system like Guildwars though. Max level chars that can only use blues / greens? I dont know. One thing im certain of though the more discussion I read. If I want to try out new characters and I dont want to grind them all the way up to max level, maybe i should be looking elsewhere.
about 3 years ago
Doesn’t RMT go away almost completely if you build an actual skill based MMO? Eliminate the time investment, eliminate rmt….
about 3 years ago
RMT dies if your game has a barter system rather than a currency system. Currency systems are easier because so many “gamers” have become designers and they have grown up with currency systems.
Just stop using currency. Will their still be RMT? Sure but think of how easy it’ll be to stop.
http://www.acm.org/sigs/sigcomm/sigcomm2004/workshop_papers/pin30-mahajan11.pdf
about 3 years ago
You designers are such knobs most of the time. You make a crappy game and then blame the user for finding a way to avoid the sucky boring parts of it.
If you don’t care enough to make the game fun why would you care if people find away to avoid the sucky stuff and maximize their fun. You got your $50 for the box and your monthly fee, so just STFU and go back to what you do best, finding something to nerf.
I know a dude who read all of War and Peace during his down time between battles in EverQuest. Oh, if Sony had ever found out I am sure they would have banned his account, sued the Barnes and Noble where he bought the book and gone after the publisher and the author.
After all he paid a third party to make EverQuest more fun when it normally sucked.
And to that guy who made the comparison to RMT and drugs in sports, I disagree. Let them juice up, it makes the game more fun. Same thing for MMOs let them RMT it up, it makes the game more fun.
If your game didn’t suck the players wouldn’t use RMT. Boom goes the Dynamite!
about 3 years ago
Because you have obviously never read an argument against it, just silly flame wars.
Okay, let’s give this a shot.
The more gold bought from the RMT enters a server, the more inflation you get.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but RMT sellers don’t just create gold from nothing, do they? They play the game and create gold like every other player in the game. Then they sell it. This does not cause more inflation than if they weren’t there, it just shifts from one player to another who is earning the gold. Rather, because the RMT gold spends a fair amount of time being listed somewhere for sale instead of being immediately spent, it actually retards the inflation process for a time equal to how long that gold fails to enter circulation amoung the rest of the player base.
but it is a much slower process when players must get it themselves
Seeing as RMT folks are also players themselves, this doesn’t make sense to me. It’s not like they hire GMs to dupe it or something, do they? No, they do the same things every other player does to get it. I’d even argue that they aren’t somehow gods who are so good at it that they get it faster than all other players, they just do the same things that many greedy and money-hungry players already do themselves to go and get it.
it forces more players to use RMT to get their gold instead of using the game mechanics to get their gold
You aren’t serious, are you? First, see the above two sections regarding how RMT farmers aren’t gods that can create tons of gold at will. But, even disregarding that, how in the world would other people having more money than you have such a strong effect on your gameplay to “force” you to RMT? Inflation due to RMT in WOW (if it even exists) is minor compared to simple server age (I regularly play on over two dozen different servers in WoW, and I assure there’s a very strong direct correlation between server age and inflation), but even if it was a 5% factor then that means instead of earning X in 10 minutes it takes you 10 minutes and 30 seconds. That 30 seconds “forces” you to RMT? Bah.
Blizzard (and other companies) then being pricing items in game (like mounts) based on the assumption that RMT bought gold will be used
This I have no experience about, and thus can’t say. But I will say that if this is the case, the designers are retarted.
Some items go down in value, but whether that\’e2\’80\’99s due to RMT or the level cap I don\’e2\’80\’99t know.
This I can speak to. As the server population ages, there is less demand for mid-level items so the prices will drop a bit. As subsequent waves of alts go through the leveling process, the price will rise and fall depening on the current demand due to alts. Then as the server age increases enough that the money pool has reached critcal mass, the demand will skew so that what were once desirable mid-level items drop in value in favor of the best items available at a particular level, on which the prices will go way up, because alts have plenty of money for the best equipment, leaving only mid-level mains with the interest in the now-affordable good-but-not-best gear.
If you play awhile on different servers in WoW and get a feel for the markets, you can really see all this in action. Each server of a different age is like a strata in the MMOG marketplace rock, where you can see all these processes in action and, by comparing it to an older server, know pretty much what will be coming up next. It’s quite facinating. Well, to us economist types, anyway.
about 3 years ago
“Seeing as RMT folks are also players themselves, this doesn\’e2\’80\’99t make sense to me. It\’e2\’80\’99s not like they hire GMs to dupe it or something, do they?”
They play 24 x 7, with multiple boxes, botting and such. Regular players don’t do that, or would have to make a substantial monetary investment to do it. And don’t say “we’re not talking about botting we’re talking about RMT” because you cannot separate them. People always use that argument. Even with out botting, having 3 shifts of kids playing the same account so it is on 24×7 is not the same as one player using that account.
That creates a boatload of money that would not be available otherwise in the game. All this extra money floating around makes the money worth less, driving up prices for everyone.
I don’t see how anyone can honestly say the total amount of gold would be the same if it were not for RMT.
about 3 years ago
They play 24 x 7, with multiple boxes, botting and such. Regular players don\’e2\’80\’99t do that…
I know a few who most certainly do. Do you deny that the top players on the servers spend literally days logged in non-stop? I thought that was the whole point of the end-game of MMOs, the complete lack of any sort of life and pooping in a bucket.
For botting I would be on the other side of the arguement. Using a program to automate your character is something I would classify with using cheat programs and other hacks, and thus is undesirable. Any farmers using botting should indeed be purged from the system, just as any player doing so would be.
I will certainly agree that RMT characters are doing more and making more gold than the average player, but if you are trying to assert that there aren’t “regular” players that are just as if not more active than even RMT characters, I would disagree. The term “catass” doesn’t exist for nothing, and it doesn’t refer to people only playing eight or so hours a day.
about 3 years ago
Sorry, forgot one bit:
I don\’e2\’80\’99t see how anyone can honestly say the total amount of gold would be the same if it were not for RMT.
I will agree to some minor increase, but only very minor. Most people that partake of RMT are completely capable of “earning” that gold on their own. They only buy it because it’s easier, not because they couldn’t get it any other way. For those people, without RMT that part of the inflation would still occur just the same if they didn’t have access to RMT and would instead have gotten it themselves.
The only portion of RMT inflation that would not exist without RMT is that part that is sold to players that would be otherwise incapable of “earning” that gold, either due to ability or the lack of time to play the game. I have seen no studies, but from my own experiences and my personal knowladge about some people that have purchased gold, I believe this percentage to be very very small, enough so that the issue of RMT inflation becomes almost non-existant and a moot point.
about 3 years ago
” know a few who most certainly do. Do you deny that the top players on the servers spend literally days logged in non-stop? I thought that was the whole point of the end-game of MMOs, the complete lack of any sort of life and pooping in a bucket.”
You answered your own question in the first sentence with the word “few” It’s only a few actual players who do it because of the time sink involved for normal players. RMTer’s whether through botting or rotating shifts artifically inflates the number of characters that are on 24/7 and farming gold and therefore artifically inflate the economy.
about 3 years ago
So what if the gold farmers are the only players on 24×7? They can only produce gold for which there is demand. By TPR’s argument, that 168 hours is merely displacing 168 hours of farming that would be done by other players if there were no RMT. Gold farming is gold farming whether it is done by somone’s Main repeatedly killing choice mobs to get enough money for a mount or by a sweatshop worker trying to make the daily quota.
It might be that no one player needs the 168 hours of gold farming. No matter – the ratio of farmers to players isn’t 1:1. Perhaps 10 players each need an extra 17 hours of gold farming that week to meet their individual goals. Rather than each of the 10 players playing a “reasonable” 17 hours during the week, we have a single gold farmer spending 170 hours.
Note that I don’t agree with TPR’s argument that this is a neutral exchange. The problem is that the professional gold farmer values their time *less* than the rich idle buyer. Hence, the buyer finds themselves faced with a choice: They can farm gold for 17 hours to reach their goal, or work in the real world for one hour to get real world money to reach their goal. If we assume real world work and in-game gold farming to be equally exchangeable, the purchasing power of the player is seventeen times what it was. They will hence buy-out auctions at higher price points and drive inflation. RMT hence can increase the demand for gold which can spiral the expected 17 hours of farming up to 170.
The underlying problem, however, is that the game designers make *EVERYONE* a gold farmer. Any time you are killing mobs for gold rather than for fun you are committing the exact same sin as those in the sweatshops. Your choice to pay for it out of your own time rather than someone else’s doesn’t absolve you of the sin. You have committed a crime against gaming: you have chosen to advance your e-peen rather than your enjoyment. Zero-sum, starvation oriented, Diku Mud derivatives that train us to this behaviour are culpable, but the fault ultimately lies with us. Before complaining about gold farming, stop your own gold farming.
about 3 years ago
Well summarized, Brask. And I will conceed that RMT allows for inflation to occur at a somewhat faster rate than would have gone on without it. Nonetheless, the total inflation over time created by each RMT transaction is negligable, as regardless of whether the player can purchase it or must get it themselves, that same amount of gold will enter the system and cause the same amount of inflation. The long-run results are very nearly identical, just with RMT the curve spikes at an earlier time than without.
about 3 years ago
Of course what’s more interesting to me is the impact on micro-inflation.
I think it is naive to think that RMT inflates the value of all goods, for example we know that DM books clearly had their value deflated by RMT while the average BOE blue or purple clearly appears inflated by RMT.
In my experience (from watching the AH over a long period and “farming” gold off the buying habits of people on the AH itself) some parts of the economy clearly deflate below the level they would be at without RMT, in general RMT deflated consumed goods (herbs/ores/potions) while inflating blues and epics (it’s harder to estimate the impact on the green-item market, and very hard to estimate the impact on the enchanting goods market in wow.)
What’s interesting about this is the flow it creates in the market, especially with BOE MC epics for a long time. The gold market drives up value of MC boe epics, which guilds sell to fund buying herbs for potions. The herbs they buy are probably 50% or more on the market due to guild farmers (and they are more affordable due to the increased supply of herbs on the market) bringing the herb prices down. I strongly suspect that high end raiding guilds as the largest individual consumers of consumables and the largest source of high-value boe epics are the largest beneficiaries of RMT existing in WoW even if they aren’t directly using these services.
about 3 years ago
” I strongly suspect that high end raiding guilds as the largest individual consumers of consumables and the largest source of high-value boe epics are the largest beneficiaries of RMT existing in WoW even if they aren\’e2\’80\’99t directly using these services.
“
I agree, and that is a classic reason why RMT is a bad idea. The pace of content consumption is increased due to the greater flow of money through the game. Guilds practicing the raids don’t have to farm as much themselves because they have anonymous gold farmers doing it for them. I am sure people posting here are aware that too fast content consumption is one of the biggest problems for MMORPGs.
about 3 years ago
Yunk, nice propaganda.
RMT is not the same as botting.
RMT is not the same as IGE.
Stop conflating quite specific real issues with a far wider and deeper one.
D Lacey, no, it’s akin to the War on Drugs. Also, 99% of the “sofisticated” anti-RMT arguments boil down to “The EULA bans it”.
D-One, right. And when the currency in AC became worthless, what happened? Oh yes, people started using certain items as a faux currency. Unless you eliminate ALL “trash loot” and a lot else, you won’t eliminate RMT. And then you have to eliminate ANY trading where you can identify the seller…
The 100% cure is FAR worse than the disease. Eliminating the IGE factor is a different problem entirely.
Fidtz, it’s a specific example – trying to take it into any sort of other game or arena is going to be plain incorrect. The old effects of RMT in Eve, for example, were decidedly odd (pushed one low end mineral price up, and other down) – but they were basically eliminated when Eve started allowing gametime codes to be sold for in-game currency.
Brask? “Gimp your character in those games” ain’t a solution either.
about 3 years ago
I don’t spit on gold farmers, I spit on people with shitty names. It just so happens that most people with names like “Hfrehgvux” happen to be gold farmers. So… bonus!
about 3 years ago
wow I like how I tried to respect people and make reasoned arguments, but get flamed and insulted
and who are the unreasonable haters?
about 3 years ago
Andrew: I didn’t mean to say you should gimp your character. I meant to say you should walk away from games which give you the choice of farming or having a gimped character. (As an aside, I am not convinced this is even the choice one faces. Failing to farm often only results in a gimped character if one insists on measuring one’s epeen against others.)
Fidtz: Fast content consumption is not the biggest problem facing MMORPGs. The inane belief that developers should cater to the fastest consumers of content is the biggest problem. If a player believes they have consumed all of your content, LET THEM GO. Give them a “You have won Warcraft! Please come back for the expansion!” screen and let them save the $15/month. The only exit for customers now is burn-out which is *not* healthy for the long term viability of MMORPGs. It is part of the duty of the Game Developer to tell the Player that they “are done”. That the player is welcome stick around and chat, but the game is over, they have won, they can go on with their life.
about 3 years ago
wow I like how I tried to respect people and make reasoned arguments, but get flamed and insulted and who are the unreasonable haters?
I never claimed the other side wasn’t just as zealous and rightous about it.
about 3 years ago
Brask, thing is..that’s basically saying “don’t play 95% of RPG’s (most SP RPG’s also have grinding – certainly NWN2′s gameplay really can’t be interpreted in any other way frex and I’m running out of patience with it)”.
People, in a MMO gasp, prefer to RMT to give them the edge. Or they can get twinked (I’ve twinked characters in Eve in return for getting twinked in other MMO’s).
And in SP games, I cheat if I get THAT bored. Again, getting there with NWN2.
When you are competing directly against another player – and I won’t play a purely PvE MMO – you *are* gimping your character.
about 3 years ago
That the player is welcome stick around and chat, but the game is over, they have won, they can go on with their life.
I’ll go you one better. When a character has reached the maximum level, the maximum talents/skills/whatever, acheived the best equipment for that class, killed every “boss” at least once, perticipated to the full in whatever PvP system you have and sucked it dry of points and rewards, and completed whatever other content your game might include, then they are not only told “well done stick around or come back with the expansion but basically game over for now” but the system also flags their account as Completed. They get to play for free (or, perhaps, a reduced rate, like $5 per month) until they buy the next expansion pack, at which point their charge status will return to normal.
This will help make it very clear to the player that there is nothing left for them to achieve, we appreciated their business, and would like them to stick around for more later but aren’t going to penalize them for doing so when there is no more content for them. This only applies to the most completely uber of characters, so hopefully not too many of your players end up in this stage and thus take a chunk out of your revenue stream … but on the other hand if enough of your players are reaching this stage before you get expansions out there that it does become a problem then you probably didn’t have enough content out there to justify your game in the first place.
about 3 years ago
…or you can build the structure for a deacent “endgame”. Like Eve’s Games of Empire, massive comflicts between player empires of every size between 50 and 1000 in an ever-changing PvP dance. Even a relatively new player can compete, too (although not with all the players).
But we’re back to World vs Game again.
(Also, there are a quite a few REALLY rare items in Eve, again frex.)
about 3 years ago
I love the last part, the solution. Hide it, don’t downplay it. Amazing that
A) somebody had to have been convinced to answer “how best do you kill off your income?” with a straight face.
B) They played along and Julian bought a means to money laundering as a solution to RMT.
C) It made it into the Escapist.
As for endgame, 2nd Life is the best. Eve has strategic resources to fight over? That’s not a bad idea, either. The skinner boxes, though… they made those games already, they are called poker, blackjack, roulette, etc. Observe how Entropia is on the backburner – upholding the themed casino.
about 3 years ago
It is interesting that none of you addressed the issue that you have given your word not to do it. That you are in breach of a contract. That it isn’t your game nor is it your place to decide what is best for the game. You make these arguments leaving out that you have agreed to play the game by a set of rules layed out in the EuLA, and that you have no intention whatsoever of keeping your word. Part of the damage from RMT is the damage to your own integrity. Once someone justifies breaking their word on something, then next time it is easier to do. Perhaps next you will use cheat codes, because after all it’s just a game and you can play it how you choose. Any jerk can justify any sort of breach of the EULA they want, whether it is using cheats or greifing newbies. That doesn’t make their justifications valid it merely makes them feel better about cheating.
If you want to know where all the hate comes from, it comes from people who value their given word for people who cheat and lie at will with no apparent negetive repercutions. It is the hate of sort of people who’s efforts make societies possible for those who degrade those societies. When you cheat, it pisses honest people off. Your justifications won’t work on them, because they haven’t given up their integrity like you have. It comes down to that you lie and cheat and we don’t appreciate it.
about 3 years ago
99.999999% of gamers don’t ever read the EULA.
about 3 years ago
Sweetmeat, the EULA is not a contract. It is a liscence – a contract requires a two-way negociation, not a simple statement of restrictions.
There is no case of the blanket ban being upheld in court – trying to call unauthorised in a MMO RMT cheating is legally unproven, plain and simple, in America and Europe.
And yes, apparently you support THIS war-on-drugs clone.
Slog: And?
about 3 years ago
Or to sum up Sweetmeat… Please, think of the children!
about 3 years ago
Slog: Accepting the terms of an agreement by hitting the “I accept” button means that you have accepted the terms of the agreement and are required to try and follow them in good faith even if you haven’t bothered to read them. If you give your word here loosly, then you have already started with some sort of idea that you will break it later at your pleasure.
The arguments here have not been about ignorance among the playerbase with regards to RMT, they have been justifications for participating in it. Meaning that these arguers are fully aware that they are going against the EULA which they have agreed to and now are trying to justify lying, cheating, and breaking their given word. Even not having read the EULA the average gamer does know from other sources whether RMT are allowed by it.
Andrew: Priveleges are often come at the price of agreeing to follow the rules of a given organization in order to gain the benefits which come from belonging to it. In this case an agreement to follow the EULA in order to play the game. Again, having given ones word with the intent to break it is unethical.
I do support this war-on-drugs clone because I believe in the game designers/publishers’ right to make the rules by which players may engage in their games. If you want RMT, find some designers who believe it won’t ruin their game and engage with them on how to make it work. Telling the designers of current games that you think they are wrong, and then willfuly breaking the EULA may soothe your concience but it doesn’t change the fact that you are breaking rules which you have agreed to follow.
about 3 years ago
Sweetmeat, and there are certain rights which you cannot sign away. The relevant British law here is that you cannot generally (a few exceptions for charities and family busineses..) work and NOT recieve certain benefits. In this case, it is very very arguable that you have a right to enjoy the benefits of the items you’ve gathered in a MMO. Including the benefits involved in trading them freely. (Incidentally, a liscence breaching that is potentially criminal as well as unethical…)
You’re supporting what I see as a blanket ban which will fall sooner or later (welcome to the information era), and the refusal of the ban supporters to back up the plain refusal in their EULA’s with other language which would still safeguard against the likes of IGE is something I see as bad.
“Again, having given ones word with the intent to break it is unethical”
Your point? People WILL engage in RMT. To try and blanket ban it is no more and no less than trying to ban Human nature. Remember that “Prohibition” thing? Let me know how it’s getting along.
I don’t have a problem with personal RMT. That’s not the same as saying I do it where it’s not currently permitted. The only RMT I’ve personally done is sell several game time codes for Eve currency, which is fully permitted.
Incidentally, what’s your stance on the RIAA’s actions?
about 3 years ago
So many people not arguing a point,but whinning.
If you play to have fun,then do it. Why should xian lou the farmer have an impact on you ? zOMG hes farming in my spot..then move. zOMG the item i want is too expensive now !! Find another item, ignroe the item, group for a similar or better BOP. The farmers only cause you problems if you elt them by your OWN actions
about 3 years ago
Well, ya’ know, I drive over the speed limit too from time to time. So EULA, smoola. I don’t bitch when I get a ticket and doubt I would do so if banned.
I liked this; “the rich idle buyer”.
When to do I get my segment of Rich and Famous Gamers?
about 3 years ago
By reading this post, you agree that Real Money Transfers (RMT) are a positive force in Massively Multiplayer Video Games. Further, you agree that you will not engage in any criticism of RMT in any public forum. Failure to abide by these terms which you, by reading this far have agreed to, will be proof that you have broken your word and are hence a cheater and a liar.
about 3 years ago
Brask, yo forgot obligatory.
[ I agree ]
EULA is yet to see serious court action and I don’t think it will hold up in most cases considering that it a) written in a way where it cannot be understood by average person b) refusal does not necessary means reimbursement c) average person never reads any ELUA
Overall EULA is clever lawyer invention to create more lawyer jobs, its for lawyers by lawyers.
about 3 years ago
> EULA is yet to see serious court action and I don\’e2\’80\’99t think it will hold up in most cases
Wrong. Bnetd ring a bell? Both the EULA and the TOS were upheld in court. And the plaintiff was…
Blizzard.
On a different matter, RMT does two things to the casual player:
- Drive inflation of goods needed for purchase, either directly through their AH pricing or indirectly through the devs creating more money sinks or raising price tags on stuff like mount training
- Drive deflation in prices for the usually farmed goods.
It’s certainly nice that RMT decreases the cost of herbs needed for the potions by the 1-2% of players having fun in Naxxramas. What is a lot less nice is that the casual player now has to sell those herbs (which RMT farmers make harder to gather by camping the spawn points 24/7) for less to pay for the items he is farming for in the first place and which is subject to RMT-induced inflation.
In short, RMT jacks up prices for needed items AND diminishes the return you get for the normally farmed items. The normal player is thus impacted twice by RMT.
about 3 years ago
—
I thought that was the whole point of the end-game of MMOs, the complete lack of any sort of life and pooping in a bucket.
—
Maybe he’s on to something. Hey Lum, can you comment on whether poopsocking is in fact one of the design goals in your new project? Bonus points for using “poopsock” in the design document.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=poopsock
about 3 years ago
EULA’s and TOS’s cover a broad array of topics. Just because a court upholds a few of the principles in one case, doesn’t mean the entire document will be valid for anything else.
The US operates under a principle that a person cannot sign away their rights. Companies can ask you to sign waivers, or accept agreements that do that, but those agreements are typically overturned if challenged. The catch is, very few individuals would be in a situation where they could compete with the legal resources of a MMO publisher, and a serious challenge would never quite see the light of day (especially given the unpredictability of courts and technology cases). In other countries, the EULA will carry even less weight than it does in the US.
about 3 years ago
Gwaendar, BNetD did not even TOUCH on RMT. What it confirmed was that playing the game on any other services other than those explicitly authorised for a game is contrary to the EULA in the USA. And there were a host of other issues there, which I won’t touch on – but it was NOT a simple EULA claim.
Also, what’s your soloution? Because saying “don’t” is a miserable failure. The only way of actually crushing the EBay market without causing inflation or crippling the game is Eve’s – allowing the resale of gametime codes for in-game currency.
about 3 years ago
“Also, what\’e2\’80\’99s your soloution? Because saying \’e2\’80\’9cdon\’e2\’80\’99t\’e2\’80\’9d is a miserable failure”
I agree. A solution IMO is to design systems that allow players to advance and gain their objectives without interference from those (RMTers or just griefers) who monopolize resources.
Then players who don’t want to buy their way into the game can play the ordinary way and be unaffected.
Instancing is one technique towards this goal.
about 3 years ago
Single player games is another excellent way to that goal.
about 3 years ago
“EULA is yet to see serious court action and I don\’e2\’80\’99t think it will hold up in most cases considering that it a) written in a way where it cannot be understood by average person b) refusal does not necessary means reimbursement c) average person never reads any ELUA
Overall EULA is clever lawyer invention to create more lawyer jobs, its for lawyers by lawyers. “
Let’s see here….
A) This point doesn’t matter. Whether you can understand a contract or not is not grounds for invalidating it.
B) If declining to agree to the EULA prevents you from returning the game (because it is open), that will NOT invalidate the EULA. The problem is most likely with the retailer — the retailer isn’t a party to the EULA, so yeah…this point is bullshit too.
C) It doesn’t matter if the person reads the EULA or not. If you go and buy a house via mortgage, but don’t read the mortgage docs, do you really think you can weasel out of paying for the house?
I know you’re a “marketing expert” and all Sinji, but you’re less than knowledgeable about the law.
“The US operates under a principle that a person cannot sign away their rights. “
This is also wrong. People sign away their rights in perfectly binding manners all the time. If you were to settle a dispute with someone and you signed a settlement agreement, odds are that you signed away your right to sue the other party at a later date. There’s more examples, but it’s really not worth it. Every goddamn internet discussion about RMT is rife with non-lawyers talking out of their asses about the law.
about 3 years ago
>>>The only way of actually crushing the EBay market without causing inflation or crippling the game is Eve\’e2\’80\’99s – allowing the resale of gametime codes for in-game currency.
Can you please explain how resale of gametime codes changes anything but medium? This is honest question, I fail to see how it works, perhaps because I sadly don’t play EvE.
about 3 years ago
Whoa there… If you do not understand a contract it is infact grounds for negating it.
http://www.answers.com/topic/mistake-contract-law
Actually every contract to be valid, must exchange something. A contract that says, “you give me a hundred dollars.” is not a valid contract. Contracts are about exchanges of value.
If you decline a EULA in the middle of a subscription by contract law you are due a refund for the remaining subscription… Companies get around this by leaving your account, that you don’t want, open.
Actually there is a difference between written contracts and virtual contracts that allow one side to not be present during the signing of a contract… If you read most EULA the company basically isn’t around for discussion of the contract and no one from the company ensures you’ve understood or even read the contract.
Buy a home and look at how many people it takes to sign those documents, many times it is three parties.
“Every goddamn internet discussion about RMT is rife with non-lawyers talking out of their asses about the law.”
Man, isn’t that the truth.
about 3 years ago
“Single player games is another excellent way to that goal.”
Thank you for your helpful comment. :p
about 3 years ago
CmdrSlack, I admit that INAL. My legal experience is limited to small claims court and I don’t think its nearly as procedurally complicated and bureaucratically convoluted as a real thing. Are you a contract lawyer? I’d love to hear detailed accounts and opinions from someone directly involved with it.
As to A) – I think you can argue that since EULA is written for ‘average consumer’ but written incomprehensible to said ‘average consumer’ it is sole purpose is to deceive.
B) I think that if don’t have reasonable means of refusing legally binding document its validity can be challenged.
C) Paying for a house – probably not without exceeding housing costs in lawyer fees and you won’t get to keep house ether. Now if you sneak in a clause that previous owners can move back at any time they want and stay as long as they want, that might be challenged. Real estate property law is an established legal area – you clearly know what can and cannot be done and most of it already played out in courts. EULAs are fairly new, there are almost no relevant precedents.
Overall I don’t think conceptually ELUA is on shaky legal grounds, I think what actually gets written into them are too far out there (“we own all, responsible for nothing”) that it will not stand up in court.
about 3 years ago
“Whoa there\’e2\’80\’a6 If you do not understand a contract it is infact grounds for negating it.
http://www.answers.com/topic/mistake-contract-law“
Right. The problem with the “mistake” theory is that, well, it’s almost never ever used or a “get out of the contract free” card. Moreover, your link pretty much says that you’re wrong. Mutual mistake is when BOTH parties to a contract have made a mistake as to a material (essential) part of the contract. If one party doesn’t understand that contract, that’s a unilateral mistake, which almost never voids a contract. Nice try though.
Sinji — Yep, I do contract law, etc. I started out with real estate stuff, but have recently been handling more web-based businesses and the like. Suffice it to say that I’ve drafted my share of TOS/TOU type agreements.
I agree that there’s lots of room to argue that EULAs shouldn’t have the weight they currently have. Hell, I support that idea 100%. I wish that “legalese” was entirely eliminated from legal drafting, beyond the required terms of art. Sadly, dense, hard to read contracts are just part of life. I’ve negotiated contracts for a producer that I know, and let me tell you, I’ve yet to see a single agreement that is in what I’d call English. I spend more time explaining to him what the contract means than I do actually negotiating. Hell, even if stuff is clear, when you get into cross-collateralization and other fun “pay back your advance” stuff, it’s still confusing. Unfortunately, no matter what the local Google Fu wizards want you to believe, that’s not really grounds to avoid or void the contract. Here’s where I’d say, “It’s really in your best interest to get a lawyer for that stuff.” Yes, it helps me out that that’s the case, but well, I doubt we’ll see a massive change in the verbiage of contract drafting. Even within the legal education industry, there’s still not a ton of support for the move to plain language legal drafting. There’s supporters, but not as many as I’d like.
As far as B) goes, if you decline the agreement, you don’t get to use the service. That’s the effective refusal for the consumer. IIRC, Best Buy got spanked in court for not allowing people to return open software specifically because it made it impossible for the user to return the software as part of the whole “I don’t agree” option. If you decide after subscribing to the service that you no longer wish to abide by the terms of the agreement, your recourse is to cancel. Since the software has been used, you don’t get the refund. If retailers didn’t cockblock returns of open software, it’d be rather like buying shoes. If I buy a pair of Chuck Taylors and then decide, “Wow, I really don’t need some canvas shoes that, while they may give me hipster cred, won’t last more than a year before falling apart,” I can return them to the store. If I wear them for a few days and try to return them, well, I shouldn’t be too pissed if the store won’t take them back. I do agree that if the publisher of software tells retailers, “We won’t credit you for returned software,” and that cockblocks the return option that is in most EULAs, well, then the publisher should get spanked.
On C)I was basically addressing the “people don’t read that shit” factor. I’ve done house closings where the buyers are experienced and don’t want to hear every clause in the mortgage translated into English, I’ve done closings where it’s the most painful and tedious thing ever because they want every last sentence explained ad nauseum. Theoretically, the sale of a house can be contingent upon all kinds of stuff (via the contract you sign when you make an offer/accept an offer), but nobody will lend money for a sale where the seller can come back and claim the property later. That’d be a horrid investment for the bank lending the cash.
I’m actually working on research into EULAs and similar agreements for an article that I hope to publish in 2007. The software industry gets away with all kinds of shit, including disclaiming all kinds of warranties that you’d think would apply. Courts have been very lenient in enforcing these agreements, even though the terms are pretty much all in favor of the publisher. The reason that most courts give for disclaiming the implied promise that the software does what it is supposed to do? “Making software is hard.” Seriously. It’s bullshit, and I think we’ll see change in the next 10-15 years as more mission-critical software fails. The Tokyo Stock Exchange had a massive software failure last year. We see all kinds of ID theft stuff where people steal records from Choicepoint, CardSystems, etc. Sooner or later, someone will win a class action against one of these data holders and the data holders will go after their software providers. That’s where the fun starts, IMO.
about 3 years ago
CmdrSlack, not true.
Actually, comprehensibility IS a factor in the legal standings of a liscence (NOT a contract) in the UK and other European countries. A few of the adware lisencing terms have fallen under that.
And for certain contracts, actually, it IS a factor in the UK. Short Term Assured Shorthold Tennancies, for example, MUST be written in layman’s English.
“If declining to agree to the EULA prevents you from returning the game (because it is open), that will NOT invalidate the EULA. “
Again, not in the UK or Europe. The company must refund you if you demand it. And there are again other rights like the value of your time you CANNOT sign away here.
And once more, a EULA is a liscence NOT a contract. It falls under copyright law and not contract.
sinij, to be clear – resale of time codes in Eve for in-game currency is FULLY allowed. And it’s crushed both IGE’s interest in Eve and the value of Eve ISK on Ebay (by a factor of 15) without wrecking the economy. Point to a similar effect in another game if you have a better idea, thanks.
Again, the entire contract vs liscence thing here is CRITICAL!
about 3 years ago
I don’t recall ever saying this before, but D-one is right. That’s a pretty good summary.
Essentially, at this point, MMOG EULAs have no legal standing and only serve as a jumping-off point for legal arguements of the company should a lawsuit occur. If the time ever comes that the key sections dealing with the nature of MMOGs are tested in court, then there will be some legal precedent for the next trial to come along. But even then, the EULA will still NOT be a contract, and will serve as a basis for the company’s legal arguements. Because EULAs are not, and have never been, a form of legally binding contract.
about 3 years ago
Can you please explain how resale of gametime codes changes anything but medium? This is honest question, I fail to see how it works, perhaps because I sadly don\’e2\’80\’99t play EvE.
The key difference is that the transfers are mostly one-way as far as US dollars goes. You buy time-codes and trade those in for ISK. You can trade ISK for time-codes to pay for your playtime. But AFAIK there’s not a simple method in place to trade either ISK or time-codes for cash. The danger of inflation to RMT is not at all abated (although, if you’ll read above, I have strong doubts about those dangers anyway, and EVE may be a good place to study that effect), but since it’s now unprofitable for IGE and other RMT sellers, the farming problems are all gone.
about 3 years ago
Andrew,
I really can’t speak to the whole UK system, since, you know, I’m a lawyer in the U.S. But thanks for your view on how the U.K. stuff works. What’s true in the U.K. is not necessarily true in the U.S. For instance, in the U.S. software licenses can and do get around copyright law (that’s the whole point, really) and they are also subject to various rules of contract.
So yeah, maybe I’m wrong for the U.K. I really don’t know as I’m neither a barrister or solicitor. I’m about 99.9% sure that I’m right for the U.S.
about 3 years ago
CmdrSlack: That renormalization of the EULA is *exactly* what I fear. As a software developer, I love the “disclaim all liability” sections of EULAs. This is why I am so pissed that MMORPG developers and similar people are pushing the boundaries of EULAs by trying to throw things like RMT into the mix. They are already such ridiculously one-sided contracts that software developers should stay very silent and cross their fingers and hope the customers don’t notice.
If MMORPG developers think tax liability will shut down the industry, just wait for general software liability to become an issue. The next anarchy online that reformats your harddrive on install won’t just be a good laugh down at the pub.
about 3 years ago
>Overall I don\’e2\’80\’99t think conceptually ELUA is on shaky legal grounds, I think what actually gets written into them are too far out there (\’e2\’80\’9dwe own all, responsible for nothing\’e2\’80\’9d) that it will not stand up in court.
The point all people yelling about how EULAs and TOS aren’t contracts or binding or giving away rights you are supposedly not able to sign away are missing though:
A MMOG company isn’t forced to take you as a customer and to provide you with a service. Simple as that. If the EULA doesn’t stand, you cannot force the devs to provide you service.
about 3 years ago
Gwaendar, no, they can allways close down the game*. But there is absolutely no inherent reason why goverments cannot – and they allready do in Asia – regulate what MMO providers can put in their EULA/TOS and dictate how they must treat RMT.
(*not entirely true, but let’s NOT get into that now)
about 3 years ago
>>>As a software developer, I love the \’e2\’80\’9cdisclaim all liability\’e2\’80\’9d sections of EULAs
I wish your home architect, maker of your car and your investment firm/bank to enjoy similar privilege you think you are entitled to.
There should be no ‘disclaim all liability’ sections in any product. You release crap that has detrimental effect on others, be it an appliance, auto, building or anything else you should be held responsible.
about 3 years ago
I didn’t say I was entitled to it. I said I really loved having it. I’m sure if there was a similar option for Architects and Car Designers they’d love having it too.
I also would like to hear how much liability the authors of Linux should have to shoulder. The cold hard fact is that if you release software for free you cannot afford to have any liability at all.
The putty FAQ has a good answer to this question:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/faq.html#faq-indemnity
about 3 years ago
Perhaps RMT can be compared to the “war on drugs” – prohibition of various intoxicants that supposedly have no medical use – because banning RMT stops players from having fun the way they want.
But that hardly invalidates my comparison to the prohibition of performance-enhancing drugs in athletic competitions, and I think my parallel is closer.
Let me explain it – I thought it was obvious but apparently not -
1) People buy things via RMT that make their characters more powerful and competitive.
2) This makes it so that in order to keep up, unless the other person is that much better of a player (or has that much more time to spend “training” / leveling up / farming) – anyone who wants to remain competitive must also participate, whether or not they want to.
Feature 2) is not found in the “war on drugs,” but it is found in performance-enhancing drugs in athletic competitions.
Feature 2 means that even if using RMT spoils someone’s fun – they have to do it if they want to remain competitive – and many games have PvP and are highly competitive that contain RMT.
If, RMT was restricted to PvE only, in cases where resources were not competed over either (opposing groups trying to ‘camp rare drops’ or the like) but fully instanced – AND when the existence of RMT didn’t make it more difficult to just play the game by providing a faster, albeit less fun, way to get tougher that so many people took that there were not a critical mass of players teaming up to do it the regular way – then it would be ok, but I doubt that would happen.
I would not stoop to saying “but it’s in the EULA” is a reason for banning RMT – it’s evidence that someone in the developer/publisher/lawyer of the former thought that there was a reason to ban RMT. What I’d wonder is, what was their reason and is it valid to accept that they had a good one, or not?
But my own opinion that RMT is a bad idea is that RMT makes games less fun for me if it provides a competitive advantage for people using it, and if it doesn’t, I don’t care.
Right now I try to stick with playing games where RMT doesn’t – wouldn’t – provide any advantage that I notice while playing. Mainly for me this means sticking with games where the ‘grind’ is for “xp” rather than “gold” – untradeable.
about 3 years ago
> Gwaendar, no, they can allways close down the game*. But there is absolutely no inherent reason why goverments cannot – and they allready do in Asia – regulate what MMO providers can put in their EULA/TOS and dictate how they must treat RMT.
Indeed, but that’s beside the point. The point is, if an individual or an organization manage to get the current EULA invalidated in court, they won’t have any license to access the game at all. And beyond that, they will even have lost the right to fire up the client.
And while certain governments may indeed limit the kind of provisions set forth in an EULA, I doubt that this could somehow force a service provider whatsoever to provide service to a customer they do not wish to have. To put it in very naive terms, if it comes down to that, while there may very well be a court order throwing anti-RMT provisions out of a standing EULA, I’m highly sceptical that such an order would also deny the MMOG the right to tell the other party “OK, if it’s like that, here’s your subscription money back, and your IP range is banned from our game.”
about 3 years ago
Absolutely, Gwaendar. And that’s the last nail in the coffin for the EULA issue in terms of the RMT debate. On the one hand a EULA is not a contract, which mean farmers are not breaking any laws or violating any binding agreements when they do their RMT thing. On the other hand, the game company is free to refuse service to anyone for any reason. So, when it comes to the RMT discussion EULAs are a red herring and pointless to argue about.
about 3 years ago
Gwaendar, it depends. Some counties, this can be true. But in the UK, an illegal liscence provision can be set aside “without predudice”. And if they shitcan the account under another clause (when the origional issue was only over a specific clause) anyway, then that’s actionable.
Which is why you shitcan their account for the specifics AND the grace-of-the-company clause. And the grace clause, if properly worded, will stand.
Regardless, if a company was ordered to stop banning people for a specific reason (which was illegal.. for example, banning anyone over 45 because they hated old people) and they didn’t, then that would be potentially actionable ANYWAY.
about 3 years ago
Brask,
What worries me about the use of the “no liability of any kind” clauses is that, at some point, something really, really bad will happen as a result of software failure. Take, for instance, the radiation therapy machines that killed people due to bad software (the name of which escapes me at the moment). If something caused massive financial loss or loss of life, and it was traceable to poorly written software, I can see those non-warranties going the way of the dodo.
IMO, if the software industry wants to avoid broad regulation from the government (because I think that’s where we’re going once the EULA gets normalized), it needs to start self-regulating. If that means slowing down development cycles, making security part of the each state of the life cycle of software, and possibly having something akin to clinical trials for software, then so be it.
But something’s gotta give.
Could the EULAs for MMOs draw public attention to how crazily abusive these things are? Sure. Will they draw enough attention to trigger massive change? Probably not on their own.
about 3 years ago
CmdrSlack: I can’t help but think your examples already have a simple solution now. If you are purchasing software that is used in a life threatening situation (such as the radiation example), either only accept software that doesn’t have the “Discount all liability” clause or hire your own third party that will assume the liability of the software.
If I write a video game that causes loss of life (played while driving?) or massive financial loss (crashes a company laptop) I don’t want to be held liable. The second case might take some explaining. After all, if I make a physical toy that explodes and causes damage, I am held liable. Why shouldn’t I be liable for my computer game doing likewise? My excuse here is that it isn’t a failure of the computer game that causes the problem. It is a failure of the OS and the hardware.
about 3 years ago
Brask, if I design bridge and it falls within 20 years, if I manufacture car that explodes and burns in accidents, if I squander money trusted me as a financial institution for safe keeping… I also wouldn’t want to be held liable, but I *absolutely* have to be held liable or I might not take necessary steps to make sure any of the above won’t happen.
We are talking here about software problems, poor coding practices that result in unstable software that does not work as intended and causes system instability as a result. If problem lies elsewhere it is not *your* software problem.
about 3 years ago
There are no-failure designs, and software. They don’t run on PC’s, but very simplistic (not simple…) embedded processors. The design and testing of said software is expensive.