Broken Toys

Laugh all you want, I still get queried over a girl in Canada I met as a result of Ultima Online for my security clearance, even though I hadn’t seen her in five years. Heck, just today I did.

To be fair, my security interview didn’t ask what we’d do if we both got drunk.

You’d have thought “It’s my iPod, I dropped it in there” would be enough to at least make them let all the other passengers go home.

But security staff are paranoid these days that something bad might happen, mostly because they generally don’t know how to run a secure enviroment.

Lowberth. It’s the only way to fly.

And the terrorist’s win yet another battle. Who knows they may indeed end up winning the war.

Talk about mixed emotions … if it were a work of fiction, it’d be hilarious … Disc World type stuff. As it is, it makes me very sad.

That\’e2\’80\’99s so ridiculous. Every single one of those passengers should have pitched a fit.

Having had the pleasure of running my mouth and winding up sitting in the little white room with very VERY serious TSA peeps, the last thing you really want to do is pitch a fit. It’s one thing for them to go through their badass motions, and it’s entirely another for them to think they’re losing control of the situation. You don’t want them to think they’re losing control. Respect their authoritah and then complain later if you must, when you’re on the outside.

Where’s that Second American Revolution that Bob Heinlein promised me? Preferably without all the churchiness, of course.

I think it’s just about time.

“What we\’e2\’80\’99ve traded for our liberty in these matters is not security but the illusion thereof. And from accounts like this, the illusion is so thin I can\’e2\’80\’99t believe we still refuse to see it for what it is.”

People are so busy buying duct tape and bottled water, they can’t be concerned with specifics as long as the government ‘FIXES IT’. Most of our fixins have come in foreign form, rather than domestic. We’re putting our customer service line on that front, lol.

“Peanuts?”

“Headset?”

“Is that a bomb you’re wearing?”

Let these people do their jobs. As long as they are doing them, we are safer. It\’e2\’80\’99s when they stop doing their jobs that we better start sweating more.

Unfortunatly the problem here is that they are doing their jobs in a flawed way because they are scared. They don’t have enough understanding of the threat, no the knowledge on what the problem really is and how to deal with it.

In this case some logic should have been applied, if the device was a bomb then the terrorist would have detonated it upon realising it was spotted and not calmly inform the stewardesses that it was their iPod. Once the captain had this information from his team he should not have paniced the passengers with his little announcement.

Upon landing the guy who dropped the iPod should be retained while the device was checked by the bomb squad, this should have taken a few minutes after the plane was landed and evacuated.

Upon determining that it was simply an iPod he should have been let go on his way.

No questions about his relationship with the person he was visiting should have been asked, his laptop should not have been searched nor his luggage, all that is an arrogant and foolish cop invading his privacy.

If they hadn’t been informed that it was an iPod then other security measures would have been sensible, however announcing to the ‘terrorist’ that his ‘bomb’ had been discovered while still in flight was a stupid move. If the threat had have been real that would have been the moment said ‘terrorist’ blew the plane up.

I’m suprised few seem to be realizing the true danger to our safety that these overreactions causes.

Lets say you are on a flight and see something suspicious. We, as a society, would like you to report the suspicious thing. However, if you know that reporting something suspicious causes the airplane to be detoured, detained, searched, and yourself detained and questioned like a criminal, you are going to have second thoughts about reporting the problem.

Put another way: After reading this story, if you saw something trapped in the toilet would you attempt to dispose of it yourself quietly or report it to the flight crew? With every report like this, the number of people who will decide to just hush up suspicious incidents rather than report them will only increase.

I\’e2\’80\’99m not saying a person can\’e2\’80\’99t respond with indignation, I\’e2\’80\’99m just saying that they might be fishing for reactions.

By that logic, you wouldn’t have a problem if the interregation officer punched the person in the face, would you? It is, after all, only fishing for reactions? Someone who dodges the blow is obviously trained in hand to hand combat and hence in the “more likely’ category, right?

We’ve already established that terrorists can and will hide explosives in the most unusual places (shoes, liquids, etc).

We also have several cases where civilians (including members of the media and a college student) bypassed airport security and planted dummy weapons on airplanes.

So what you have is a hit and miss security situation making people paranoid, coupled with a foe that is almost MacGyver-esque in its ingenuity in, well, blowing people up. Yeah, I’m not surprised this happened.

I do feel for the guy, though. Eight thousand prying questions and bureaucrats with too much authority and not enough brains. And people wonder why the words ‘government employee’ inevitably make me snicker.

–TR

Lum,

Save us from the terrorists & nasty ipods. Take us to the promised MMOG!

If a couple of terrorists board a plane and their plan goes wrong, wouldn\’e2\’80\’99t it be the thing to do for the one who\’e2\’80\’99s an unknown, and/or doesn\’e2\’80\’99t have something incriminating in his possession, to step forward and take the blame claiming an innocent mistake?

If the item in the toilet was innocent then I, the terrorist, wouldn’t have dropped it in there deliberately and if I’d dropped an innocent item in by mistake then I am no more guilty of anything than the protagonist in the original story. Dropping something harmless in a toilet by mistake, without realising it, is not evidence of anything beyond bad luck and doesn’t imply I am a terrorist.

I don’t think some of you quite understand how an iPod can be used by terrorists.

First, it can send a simple signal to trigger another item elsewhere, detonating an explosive. This is the same as using a cell phone like this. Cell phones were used to set off the explosions that killed around 200 people, and wounded well over 1,000, in Spain on the commuter trains a few years back.
The recent plan to blow up 10 planes flying from Europe to the US, foiled by the British, included iPods as well as cell phones to set off the homemade gel explosives, causing the crackdown on liquids. Who knows how many people would have died.

Secondly, an iPod can be used as a homing device. The implications here would seem to be too difficult to use on continental flights, but a possibility on intercontinental or coastal flights.

In any case, these cell phones and iPods and similar devices look like any other. It would take an expert who knows what he’s looking for to detect the possible use for terrorism, and I highly doubt that there was one on that flight. I mean, it’s not like there’s a “dial this to set off explosions” on their lists.

Another Ben Franklin quote:
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”.

Wanderer, Franklin D. Roosevelt said “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself”. He said it in 1933 in his inaugural address. Hitler, at the time, had not gained full power in Germany. Roosevelts comments were more about the depression which had just started. However, there might have been a hint of a global warning, since the events in Germany were looking pretty bad and Hitler was gaining power ruthlessly. Roosevelt might have had fears about major wars in Europe.

But speaking of WWII, what they did to US freedom and rights during that time was far more than now. It was war, and had to be done.

This is a war these days too. Things have to be done to ensure our survival.

Another Ben Franklin quote:
“We must all hang together, or assuradly we shall all hang separately”.

Skelanth, Lum is not your savior in this matter. I’m not sure how you’ll take this, but among many varied people doing many jobs, it is the politicians who lead the effort to save you. Chew on that one for a while.

And finally I’ll leave you with this. Don’t expect perfection from other people. Those involved in our security are as imperfect as the next person. Mistakes will be made aplenty. But they are doing the best they can. They need all of our cooperation in these matters. I’m not saying to blindly follow, but we have to give up a little freedom so they can do their job. So we can win this war. Because the alternative is to lose the war eventually. You would not like the amount of lost freedom in that case, in so many ways.

I don\’e2\’80\’99t think some of you quite understand how an iPod can be used by terrorists.

Actually I think you are the one failing to unerstand how it couldn’t be used by a terrorist.

First, it can send a simple signal to trigger another item elsewhere, detonating an explosive.

No it can’t, it’s an iPod. The don’t have any form of wireless transmission

The recent plan to blow up 10 planes flying from Europe to the US, foiled by the British, included iPods as well as cell phones to set off the homemade gel explosives, causing the crackdown on liquids.

This group had no idea what they were doing, the idea of using this liquid explosive was flawed, as clearly was the iPod idea.

Secondly, an iPod can be used as a homing device.

Again no, no wireless transmission capability.

In any case, these cell phones and iPods and similar devices look like any other. It would take an expert who knows what he\’e2\’80\’99s looking for to detect the possible use for terrorism, and I highly doubt that there was one on that flight.

Not on the flight, but there would be on the ground, so…

The terrorist is not going to claim responsibility as he knows that an expert will figure out the modifications and he’ll be implicated.

So if the device is claimed by someone then logically it is not a threat, however…

The person who came forward needs to be detained, but not questioned nor their privacy invaded, while the device is checked by the expert.

The rest of the passengers should be allowed to go their normal ways and get on with their lives.

I don\’e2\’80\’99t think some of you quite understand how an iPod can be used by terrorists.

Given that I am (among other things) an electronics technician by training, I suspect if one of us is a bit lacking in understanding there, the odds are it’s you.

First, it can send a simple signal to trigger another item elsewhere, detonating an explosive.

Now that would be a really amazing thing for a device which lacks both timing and wireless capabilities to be able to do. You do comprehend that these devices don’t work by magic, right?

This is the same as using a cell phone like this. Cell phones were used to set off the explosions that killed around 200 people, and wounded well over 1,000, in Spain on the commuter trains a few years back.

Last time I looked, though, cell phones were still permitted on airplanes. So, for that matter, were iPods. If either one was going to be used as some sort of remote activator (a job better left to something like the car alarm remote on zillions of people’s keyrings, by the way) it would work better if it was in someone’s pocket, or slipped into a seatback pouch next to the in-flight magazine, or in carryon luggage, or in fact just about anywhere other than in a toilet. Note: Electronics in general do not take well to being flushed. Trust me on this.

Also, for what it’s worth, the cell phones used in the Madrid bombings were not used for any type of remote-controlled activation. In fact, they were used as simple timers. Just like an alarm clock wired to a bundle of dynamite in a cartoon. Yeah, an expensive (and insecure) solution to a problem that really only needed a $5.98 digital travel alarm clock and a few parts from Radio Shack.

The recent plan to blow up 10 planes flying from Europe to the US, foiled by the British, included iPods as well as cell phones to set off the homemade gel explosives, causing the crackdown on liquids. Who knows how many people would have died.

Given the fact that it’s been coming out (albeit rather quietly) that the supposed bombers did not actually know how to carry out the plan they supposedly had in mind, and had in fact taken no active steps toward doing so, it’s highly unlikely that any connection with cell phones or iPods existed anywhere outside the minds of a few fearmongering hack journalists looking for another fraction of a point of ratings. Anyone who quotes a “high” but anonymous Congressional source, and ignores named experts and canonical books on the subject, is not a reliable reporter.

As for the homemade gel explosives: Yes, you can make explosives out of some common ingredients. But it is not just matter of just mixing part A and part B. It’s not that simple, and if you get it wrong, you blow off your fingers (but very little else). You can’t do it in an airplane seat, or a bathroom. You can’t do it quickly. Let’s say you’re trying to make TATP, which has been bandied around as the explosive in question. You have to wait for the reaction to run to completion, then filter out and dry the precipitate. This takes hours. Sorry, real life and real chemistry just don’t work like they do in the movies.

Secondly, an iPod can be used as a homing device. The implications here would seem to be too difficult to use on continental flights, but a possibility on intercontinental or coastal flights.

Holy mother of … oh, I can’t even figure out what deity would be sufficiently ludicrous here.

Let me try to get this across to you once again:

If an iPod could do any of the things you’re talking about (which it can’t, not on this planet, anyway) then it could do them equally effectively anywhere on the airplane. In the cargo hold. In the overhead compartments. In someone’s pocket. The place it would be least effective for any or all of this would be in the toilet.

In any case, these cell phones and iPods and similar devices look like any other. It would take an expert who knows what he\’e2\’80\’99s looking for to detect the possible use for terrorism, and I highly doubt that there was one on that flight. I mean, it\’e2\’80\’99s not like there\’e2\’80\’99s a \’e2\’80\’9cdial this to set off explosions\’e2\’80\’9d on their lists.

And how is that any different if the iPod is in the toilet than if it is in someone’s pocket?

If there was a genuine risk from “these cell phones and iPods and similar devices” that all “look like any other” every last one of them would be banned from planes. The only difference between that iPod and every other iPod on that plane (and it is a safe bet that there were several of them, at a minimum) is the relevant one had fallen into the toilet and was therefore less likely to be able to do anything whatsoever, including setting off imaginary bombs, than any or all of the others.

Another Ben Franklin quote:
\’e2\’80\’9cAn ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure\’e2\’80\’9d.

But what is the value of tons of worthless baby-pacifier-style prevention which cures nothing?

I agree, though, with that statement. An ounce of prevention of the erosion of our essential liberties is worth many pounds of desperate, doomed efforts to get them back when the people who seek to destroy them — our own politicians, and their bootlickers — succeed.

First they took away the suspected terrorists’ rights,
But I was not a terrorist so I did not speak up.
Then they took away the suspected drug dealers’ rights,
But I was not a drug dealer so I did not speak up.
Then they took away the suspected dissidents’ rights,
But I was not a dissident so I did not speak up.
Then they took away my rights,
And there was nobody left who had the right to speak up.

(with apologies to the late Rev. Martin Niemoller)

This is a war these days too. Things have to be done to ensure our survival.

A war against “terror”? How can you go to war with an emotion?

A war against terrorism? How can you go to war against a tactic?

What are the victory conditions for this war? How will we know who has won? When will we know who has won?

What survival are we trying to ensure? Under what conditions?

Something to think about: the death toll of a 9/11-magnitude attack once a month would not equal the death toll of traffic accidents in the US during the same period. Why are we terrified of such an attack, but don’t shiver in fear when we get into our cars?

… but among many varied people doing many jobs, it is the politicians who lead the effort to save you.

The politicians are doing nothing but leading the effort to ensure their tenure in their jobs. It has become abundantly clear in the past five years that they do not care about the citizens, the country, or anything else except their own election or re-election (as appropriate). Not from any party. Not on any side. They aren’t saving anything but their paychecks. They are beating the drums of fear so that people like you cringe in terror of the boogeyman and willingly throw your freedom onto the bonfire to protect you for a few moments more against the Long Night.

… but we have to give up a little freedom so they can do their job. So we can win this war. Because the alternative is to lose the war eventually. You would not like the amount of lost freedom in that case, in so many ways.

So what is winning this “war”?

What is losing?

How do we tell the difference?

Personally, if I find myself living in a fascist police state, I’d count that as losing.

And a thought ….

Look at some of the things the British suspects were charged with: Possession of articles that could be used to prepare a terrorist act. They found hydrogen peroxide. They found electronic components. They found a book on improvised explosives. They found a map of Afghanistan. Guess what, if you search my place you’ll find all of those … and a cell phone … and an MP3 player … and data storage devices. With the possible exception of the map of Afghanistan (though I think there was a big foldout one in National Geographic a while ago) and the book on improvised explosives (available at your local bookstore) you probably have all of those in your house. I certainly have them all, including the book. Does that make me a terrorist?

Do I want to live in a country where merely having those items — the peroxide to sanitize reptile cages, the electronic components to fix things, the book for research for my writing, the map because I just collect (or at least accumulate) maps, the cell phone to call people with, the MP3 player to listen to music on, and at least as many discs, memory sticks, etc., as the average geek — is illegal? One where I could be accused of a crime I would never even contemplate just because of innocent items that I owned?

Destroying our freedom in order to save it … what an amazing concept. Big Mommy is your friend.

Not.

Wanderer you are my hero.

Wanderer, an iPod can be rigged to do what I said it could, and at the same time still function just like any other iPod. Like I said, it would take an expert who knew what to look for to recognize it. Just because you lack the immagination to figure it out, don’t assume everyone else lacks such basic immagination too. But I’m not going to spell it out here for obvious reasons.

What does it matter where it was found or why it was there? It was out of place, and raised alarms. I never claimed that it might have been placed there on purpose. Still, two Russion planes went down and it was determined that the explosions were triggered in the toilets. So something unusual found in a planes toilet is alarming, reguardless of what it is.

Yeah, you are right that the bombings in both England and Spain used cell phones as timing devices. But you’re leaving out an inportant fact in both cases. In the English bombing, one of the bags was left on a bus and exploded sometime later than the others. Did the timing alarm not go off, and was a call made to set off the explosion? And in Spain, the critical evidence was from another bag, this one didn’t go off at all. It was stored along with other unclaimed items for months before it rang, alerting the police to check it out. The wiring evidently wasn’t hooked up right to cause the explosion. This was months after the bombing. I don’t think there can be any other explanation than that someone placed a call to that cell phone in order to try to trigger the explosion that they knew didn’t go off in the original bombing.

According to your argmunets, someone leaving a bag behind in a public place should cause no alarms or reactions at all. Am I correct?

I get the distinct feeling that you won’t believe anything. You’re railing against me for seeing the boogeyman, yet look at yourself. You see the boogeyman in everything about this war on terror. But when one looks at the facts, we are being attacked by terrorists and people are dying.

The liquids/gel business isn’t about mixing things together during a flight. It’s about explosives already made being smuggled on board, and then rigged electonically to be exploded.

GregC: “Allowing the Constitution to be tossed in the trash can is far worse than losing \’e2\’80\’9cthe war\’e2\’80\’9d\’e2\’80\’a6what war? It\’e2\’80\’99s not a war is horrible disgrace of politics and big money. World War II was a real war\’e2\’80\’a6there was a clear enemy. This \’e2\’80\’9cwar\’e2\’80\’9d is aimed at anyone with \’e2\’80\’9cbrown\’e2\’80\’9d skin, who may resemble a \’e2\’80\’9cterrorist\’e2\’80\’9d or not be a pasty-white-amercian-wholesome-christian. It is simply ridiculous.”

And the terrorist attacks are carried out almost exclusively by people of middle eastern decent. Greg, com’on man. Facts are facts, don’t ignore them. And by the way, we “pasty-white-amercian-wholesome-christians” are the same ones that fought Hitler in WWII, and live and work side by side with “brown skinned” people of middle eastern decent, and who mourn all the people who died on 9-11 and elsewhere no matter what their color or religion or background. And we come in all colors and faiths and heritages ourselves.

Wanderer, an iPod can be rigged to do what I said it could, and at the same time still function just like any other iPod.

Greg’s right. You really have to knock off the Kool-Aid. It’s turning your brain purple.

If any of the experts seriously believed that an iPod could be rigged to do all the highly improbable things you’re trying to persuade us it could do, iPods wouldn’t be allowed on planes in the first place. I mean, c’mon, they ban tweezers for the love of God! You believe the government to be all-wise. The TSA has banned anything potentially more dangerous than tweezers. Therefore, by your own logic, iPods are not as dangerous in the eyes of the government experts as tweezers are. So it would seem that the very government you worship has declared that you are, in fact, wrong.

I have, incidentally, an extremely active and flexible imagination, and I have been unable to devise a plausible scenario in which a plane could be brought down by the use of tweezers. I can’t even think of any option that would not, in this post-9/11 world, require a proctologist to retrieve the tweezers from whoever tried to use them for nefarious purposes.

Like I said, it would take an expert who knew what to look for to recognize it. Just because you lack the immagination to figure it out, don\’e2\’80\’99t assume everyone else lacks such basic immagination too. But I\’e2\’80\’99m not going to spell it out here for obvious reasons.

So why, then, is there no restriction on walking into a plane with an iPod?

Please, at least be internally consistant.

What does it matter where it was found or why it was there? It was out of place, and raised alarms. I never claimed that it might have been placed there on purpose.

Why? Simple: That iPod was no more of a threat in a toilet than it was on its owner’s belt, or in his pocket, or in his luggage. When he explained how it got there, that should have been the end of it.

Still, two Russion planes went down and it was determined that the explosions were triggered in the toilets. So something unusual found in a planes toilet is alarming, reguardless of what it is.

In Pravda is no izvestia, in Izvestia is no pravda. Though you’re probably too young to even get the reference. Yeah, Pravda (and those who picked up the story from them) ranted for a while about Chechen terrorists and half-kilo bricks of explosives being set off in the toilets. They should stick with reporting on the opening of new tractor factories. So far as I know, nothing has been officially determined about what caused the crashes. It does take a while, you know. The TU-154 went down during a violent thunderstorm, incidentally.

Now, think like a terrorist here for a minute. You are a suicide bomber. You are going to try to crash a plane in which you, personally, are flying. Now, which way do you want to go about it?

1) Leave your explosive unattended in a toilet, where anyone can find it, and possibly do something like, oh, chuck it out of the plane before it goes off. Or just flush it, so you do nothing more than blow out the drain valves from a tank full of, um, let’s not go there.

2) Hold it firmly against your choice of vital targets and trigger it manually, so you know exactly when and where it’s going off for best effect.

Timed or remotely detonated explosives are great for bombings when the bomber intends to survive. That’s why terrorist groups like the IRA love them so much. But if you’re on the freaking plane, you’re not going to survive. You knew that when you got on board. You made your videotape and wrote out your will last night. You kissed your mama goodbye. You’ve got your one-way ticket to paradise. So why in the name of all that’s holy would you choose to use a much less reliable way of setting off your bomb … one that might not bring down the plane, or might not do anything at all except get you arrested … when you could do it right, make sure it works, with less difficulty?

Russian airport security, by the way, is notoriously lax. If someone did in fact set off a bomb in a plane’s toilet, it’s highly unlikely they did it with a rigged iPod. For one thing, I can’t think of any explosive that is both strong enough to do the job in such a small quantity (especially if you want the thing to keep playing music) and stable enough to want to risk carrying around, let alone survive all the travel and handling involved in getting it on a plane. They’d have a much easier time just bringing along a supply of the plastic explosive of their choice stuffed into something else and setting that off anywhere they wanted to. Or, for that matter, just bribing some random underpaid ground crewman to give them access to the plane beforehand.

Yeah, you are right that the bombings in both England and Spain used cell phones as timing devices. But you\’e2\’80\’99re leaving out an inportant fact in both cases. In the English bombing, one of the bags was left on a bus and exploded sometime later than the others. Did the timing alarm not go off, and was a call made to set off the explosion?

Maybe. Or maybe the alarm was just set wrong. Occam’s Razor for the win.

And in Spain, the critical evidence was from another bag, this one didn\’e2\’80\’99t go off at all. It was stored along with other unclaimed items for months before it rang, alerting the police to check it out. The wiring evidently wasn\’e2\’80\’99t hooked up right to cause the explosion. This was months after the bombing. I don\’e2\’80\’99t think there can be any other explanation than that someone placed a call to that cell phone in order to try to trigger the explosion that they knew didn\’e2\’80\’99t go off in the original bombing.

I think there most certainly can be another explanation: It’s called a wrong number.

If I was going to make such a call to blow up that bag, I’d do it right away, not wait months. I’d do it when the bag was still on the train, not when it had sat in unclaimed baggage for ages and was unlikely to do anything more impressive than blow up a baggage bin somewhere.

According to your argmunets, someone leaving a bag behind in a public place should cause no alarms or reactions at all. Am I correct?

Nope. But then again, given your apparent inability to use logic, reason, or common sense in reading my arguments, I don’t really expect you to understand.

For one thing, a person leaving a bag behind intends to be not there when that bag explodes. A person with one of your magical rigged iPods would be in the plane — remember, that toilet was checked earlier (they are) and had no iPod, so the owner had to be on the plane — and therefore, it would make no sense just to abandon the thing. Much more effective to set it off personally. Quit trying to set up that straw man, it keeps falling over.

Let’s look at it this way: You see an iPod on a plane. In which of the following places would you consider it — the exact same iPod — to be a threat worthy of the response that this incident had:

1. On a passenger’s belt.
2. In a passenger’s pocket.
3. On a passenger’s tray table.
4. On an empty seat next to a passenger.
5. On the floor in front of a seat.
6. In the aisle somewhere.
7. Outside the door of the lavatory.
8. In the toilet.

Picked one? Good. Now, please explain why that location is more menacing than the lower-numbered ones.

I get the distinct feeling that you won\’e2\’80\’99t believe anything. You\’e2\’80\’99re railing against me for seeing the boogeyman, yet look at yourself. You see the boogeyman in everything about this war on terror. But when one looks at the facts, we are being attacked by terrorists and people are dying.

No. I see the natural inclinations of rulers to expand their powers at the expense of the ruled. That’s human nature. It’s something every society throughout history has faced, and we are no exception. That’s why eternal vigilance really is the price of liberty.

And the “war on terror”? How can you declare war on an emotion? You know what the biggest source of terror is? Scare-mongers whipping up panic to sell newspapers, get votes, improve ratings, whatever their personal profit happens to be. fnord

We are being attacked by terrorists and people are dying. Um, right. Yeah, it’s happening every day. No, no, don’t try to tell me that only Big Mommy and our noble politicians have protected us and otherwise we’d all be dead. That’s like me saying that my lucky charm protects me from being trampled by purple elephants — I can prove it because I remain un-trampled and capable of writing this post.

We have been attacked by a lot of assorted evildoers in the history of this country. People died. Fortunately, prior to the past few decades, we were not a nation of wimps. We were not a nation of cowards. We were not a nation of bootlickers. And we most certainly were not a nation of people eager to cower behind the skirts of Big Mommy. Freedom meant something to them. It clearly does not mean anything to those who are not just drinking the Kool-Aid but slamming pitchers of the stuff.

The liquids/gel business isn\’e2\’80\’99t about mixing things together during a flight. It\’e2\’80\’99s about explosives already made being smuggled on board, and then rigged electonically to be exploded.

Check your scare stories, you’re getting it wrong. The whole scare was about the possibility of people mixing up explosives (TATP being the main candidate) on the plane from innocuous ingredients.

And the terrorist attacks are carried out almost exclusively by people of middle eastern decent. Greg, com\’e2\’80\’99on man. Facts are facts, don\’e2\’80\’99t ignore them.

[snark] Why not, you do? [/snark]

Terrorist attacks are carried out almost exclusively by people of Middle Eastern descent. Um, yeah, right. Like in Oklahoma City. Like in the Tokyo subways. Like in Omagh. Like in Atlanta. Like in all the places bombed by the Red Army Faction (and its kindred) and the ETA and the Armata Corsa and the IRA and the Chechens and … well, and I could keep listing them for a while, but I doubt if it would make a difference to you. Christians. Jews. Muslims. Sikhs. Hindus. Atheists. Weird do-it-yourself cultists. I can find you examples of terrorist attacks for each and every one of them.

I find it mind-boggling, in this day and age, that I am arguing with someone who — despite access to a worldwide information network — displays such profound and willful ignorance as you do. It truly makes me fear for the future of all I hold dear.

Jeezus! I give up. As time goes on, as we experiance more attacks and more people die, you guys keep blaming the boogeyman government.

I’ll tell you this. I have to throw my hands in the air and surrender in this forum. You people can’t even understand a simple thing. If liquids are forbidden on planes, and someone is then found with it, it’s a big alarm. That terrorist, if he isn’t successful in hiding the liquid/gel that’s forbidden, all of a sudden is suspect. On the other hand, if there’s no restrictions on these things, he’s free to proceed to try to blow the plane out of the air.

Why is this so freakin’ hard to understand? Like I said, I give up. You people responding this way are either way too slow upstairs or you just simply will not accept even reasonable explantions in your fervor to be anti authority.

I’d be a little less leery about the whole “trade freedom for safety” thing if I thought this government were the least bit capable. This is the same bunch that decided New York has no terror targets.

You’d think a bunch so dreadfully concerned with the safety of its citizens it’s willing to throw the document the nation was founded upon into a shredder would be willing to implement something your average American might actually need…like, I dunno, health insurance.