Broken
Toys
Random comments about
games and tractors
This Week’s “RMT Is Rilly Cool” Story
…is here. Apparently, done with the help of IGE for fact checking.
“Twenty to 30 percent of gamers out there in the world object to the buying and selling of assets in the virtual world. … They don’t feel it’s fair. They think it’s cheating,” said Thomas Morelli, a spokesman for IGE, a major broker of online items.
Many gaming companies, such as Blizzard Entertainment, developer of the globe’s most popular game, World of Warcraft, ban the resale of virtual assets. The company has shut tens of thousands of players’ accounts, but can’t seem to halt the trade.
Millions of gamers think the trade is fine. A thriving business has popped up on auction giant eBay and other sites selling virtual assets. Buyers say they want to enjoy the games without spending hundreds of hours working up to levels where it gets fun and frisky.
You hear that? MILLIONS. You cranky curmudgeons tired of monopolized content and spam in your virtual emails are just blips in the New Millenium!
The article does have a lot of interesting anecdotes about life in Fujian’s newest growth industry, something I suspect IGE has much source material on.
| Print article |
about 4 years ago
20-30% of gamers object to gold farming? Hmmm. More like 5-10%… basing that off the time I first bought plat in EQ to present day WoW knowledge.
Now, 20-30% object to ruined economies (not that the gold farmers do that), that I might buy.
about 4 years ago
Tax it.
about 4 years ago
Chinese laborers, low on the global totem pole, reinvent themselves in the virtual world as powerful sorcerers, warriors and high priests.
Is it just me, or are these the worst possible classes ever to farm with? With the possible exception of the “high” priest. Because everything’s better when you’re high.
about 4 years ago
“Because everything\’e2\’80\’99s better when you\’e2\’80\’99re high.”
Have you ever farmed gold on weed?
about 4 years ago
IGE should make thier own fucking games and leave eveyone elses alone.
“”A good conservative estimate of global annual sales of virtual items for real money is $200 million a year,” said Edward Castronova, an economist who specializes in the study of virtual assets at Indiana University.”
$200million a year should leave at least 70million for designing and implementing and hosting a game. Have at it IGE, have at it. Oh wait, you’re just theives… Sorry.
Hi, I’m D-0ne and I hate RTM. Ban them all.
about 4 years ago
I’ve played a lot of MMOGs. None of them have been “frisky”.
Well, okay, maybe a couple, but not any I’d admit to playing.
about 4 years ago
I want to see the claim of “ownership” challenged.
I write a novel, using MS Word, and save it in MS Word. I own the novel.
I spend a good amount of time putting together a nation wide directory of resturants (locations, ratings, etc). I own the directory.
I pay to play a game online that is part chance and part skill. If it’s partypoker.net, I own the winnings, if it’s WoW i get nothing?
When a guild gets together and capms a gold spot to give the coin to the new guy, that’s okay. When a new player pays (real money) to another player – that’s not okay? The only laws I can think of that work this was are related to prostitution (sex for free okay, sex for money, not).
So Blizzard has a problem with a high number of hookers playing the game. And here we though only GTA was the one evil enough to have hookers.
“enjoy the games without spending hundreds of hours working up to levels where it gets fun”
Hmmm… maybe there is another answer alltogether, just can’t place my finger on it….
about 4 years ago
I’ve been having a feeling that these MMOs need RMT at this point. It’s become so prolific, that a large part of any grindy MMO’s playerbase would probably stop playing MMOs if they didn’t have someone farming money/items for them.
Of course, if RMT is allowed free reign, MMOs might as well be online gambling. Eliminating RMT all together might cut MMO subscriptions by a substantial amount. They either have to live with those reduced numbers or are forced to change the game into something more appealing.
about 4 years ago
I pay to play a game online that is part chance and part skill. If it\’e2\’80\’99s partypoker.net, I own the winnings, if it\’e2\’80\’99s WoW i get nothing?
Very selective analogies that don’t ultimately work.
When you go to Disneland for the day, you are entitled to remove your memories, children, and photos from the theme park. You don’t get to take pieces of the rides.
When you are done with a hooker, you don’t get to take pieces of her home with you, unless you are a serial killer, in which case you suck. Hookers don’t respawn, so you’ve ruined the camp for everyone else.
about 4 years ago
It’s time that the companies that created the MMORPGS realized that this isn’t going away, and try to incorporate it into their design. Think of the money Blizzard is turning away by not selling virtual gold.
Everquest tried to go that route with those newer servers, but the game was in such decline at the time that it didn’t matter.
It’s going to happen no matter what a company does to stop it, and companies like IGE, in effect, have an endless stream of accounts and characters that they use to farm with. They’ll always be two steps ahead of the overworked GMs.
about 4 years ago
It takes 2 to tango. There is obviously a huge population of players who are buying. If you accept the news reports in World of Warcraft alone $3 Million equivalent was seized. If you assume that half of the gold farmers were caught and they turn over gold every week, then total WOW gold sales would be on the order of $24 Million per month. Even at a conservative level of $3 Million per month, basically on average every WOW player is buying almost $0.50 in gold per month. If you believe the high end, then the number is closer to $4 in gold per month for every player.
If the news story is correct, this is plausible. Think about it. The sample company had 800 employees and is one among many… this is a huge business and it isn’t going away just by declaring it “evil”. Either the game companies are going to need to fix their games to eliminate the game mechanisms that make gold farming viable or legitimize it.
about 4 years ago
“Very selective analogies that don\’e2\’80\’99t ultimately work.”
Well yours aren’t much better, Amber.
“When you go to Disneland for the day, you are entitled to remove your memories, children, and photos from the theme park”
A unit of currency isn’t exactly a ‘piece’ of the game, and even if it was, there is no way to ‘take’ it with you.
‘A more apt metaphor would be this:
To get into disneyland there is an enormous line. In fact it’s so long, you have to stand in it for hundreds of hours just enduring the monotony of it all. However, instead of standing in line, you can pay a Chinese man about ten cents an hour to stand in line and give you his ticket when he is almost inside the park. The problem is that disneyland says the Chinese man doesn’t own his ticket, and though he can give it away for free (with which disneyland has no problem), if they see you exchanging cash with him, they’ll snatch up the ticket and tear it in half.
I can’t help but think that the people who really object to RMT are ‘have-nots’ in real life and want to maintain the only place where they are considered ‘haves’. I earn enough money that my leisure time is worth more than ten cents an hour to me.
about 4 years ago
This is simple proof that game companies are idiots.
No game or game company manages to learn from the prior mistakes made from previous games and game companies.
about 4 years ago
Just thought I’d interject this in here. As this ever growing wave of pharmers from lesser developed economies hits, and people like IGE spread their happy happy, one has to wonder how much of the feeding frenzy is feeding off itself. How many characters are pharmed and sold to other pharmers to pharm gold? How many items are pharmed and sold to other pharmers to help them more quickly pharm gold. How much gold is pharmed and sold to other pharmers to buy whatever they need to advance quickly to the top to pharm and sell things themselves? Parasites feeding on parasites.
One also has to wonder what this does to the fantastic numbers WoW shows as subscribers.
Finally, one has to wonder when the implosion is going to hit. Look no further than UO to see the future of WoW, in a grander scale though. So many wanting to sell so much, and so few to buy.
In WoW’s case, with all the expenses for servers, I wonder if they aren’t going to have one hell of a big fall.
about 4 years ago
“Finally, one has to wonder when the implosion is going to hit. Look no further than UO to see the future of WoW, in a grander scale though. So many wanting to sell so much, and so few to buy.”
Good point, but this must be taken from the proper perspective:
Who the f**k really cares that actually matters?
Certainly not the game companies. They don’t care.
Certainly not the developers. They don’t [i]act[/i] like it.
Certainly not the majority of players. They exploit it to one extent or another, whether they willingly participate or not.
about 4 years ago
“I can\’e2\’80\’99t help but think that the people who really object to RMT are \’e2\’80\’98have-nots\’e2\’80\’99 in real life and want to maintain the only place where they are considered \’e2\’80\’98haves\’e2\’80\’99. I earn enough money that my leisure time is worth more than ten cents an hour to me.”
I’m sure that does account for some of them. But believe it or not, anti-RMT people are not a giant hive mind who all have the same motives. Some of us just want a fair game. I wouldn’t want to play chess if you could buy a couple extra queens whenever you needed, why would I want to play a MMOG that allows the equivilent?
about 4 years ago
Wow, look at all the people defending goldselling. How sad and puzzling.
Thing is, I can tell you for a fact that any game that allows/participates in RMT will NOT be played by me, and probablly a very large silent majority.
The exeption might be somthing like Entropia which has no monthly cost, nor even initial purchase cost.
That’s about the only mmog environment where I would see this working without alienating the vast majority of the client base who do NOT enjoy being inferior in a game where all should be as good as their SKILL takes them to people who have lots of cash to blow and no time or patience to actually, y’know PLAY at the level required to earn the rewards they buy.
about 4 years ago
You pretty much nailed it Joe, there are pretty much just two camps in the anti-RMT party; “I suck at life and all I do is play this video game, why should someone else (Who conversely doesn’t suck at life) just buy their way into the the fun stuff?”; and the “I play the game to be part of a community and to have fun why should the real-world intrude?”.
There are no real good answers to this question, most of your players don’t play to be the worlds best , but just for the interaction with others, and few that do play for whatever title are still playing it for the interaction, otherwise they’d be playing diablo at home, alone. The sad thing is that RMT ruins communities, it hordes resources, promotes non-interaction, and ontop of can ruin the global economy.
Why should I interact with all these stupid people, when I can just pay someone to ?
MMO’s wont really hit the golden spot until they answer that question and put RMT out of the game design.
about 4 years ago
Chinese laborers, low on the global totem pole, reinvent themselves in the virtual world as powerful sorcerers, warriors and high priests.
Is it just me, or are these the worst possible classes ever to farm with? With the possible exception of the \’e2\’80\’9chigh\’e2\’80\’9d priest. Because everything\’e2\’80\’99s better when you\’e2\’80\’99re high.
Au Contraire,
That just about describes the “Holy Trinity” classes of Everquest 1.
Powerful Sorcerer = Enchanter
Warrior = Warrior
High Priest = Cleric
You can farm 99% of the non-major raid mobs with that group makeup. Dang those efficient chinese peasants that exploit class imbalances of EQ!
about 4 years ago
The best simile I can put to this whole situation, with all moral considerations aside, is that this is like our government’s war on drugs. Attempting to legislate and criminalize an unregulated market bolstered by large, consistent demand.
Laws won’t stop people from buying drugs the same way they won’t stop players from buying gold. The kid’s wanna have fun and you can cram it with walnuts.
While there might be design decisions that can be made to curb activity, any kind of currency in game is going to be farmed and translated into real world currency out of game. I don’t hold much faith for our government to be able to legislate these kinds of property issues. Business is already on the case.
And lest we forget, this is not a game for some, but a job. You could be in competition for a mining node with someone who’s trying to earn their days wage. They might be playing harder than you.
That being said, I am ethically opposed to gold-buying in MMOs. It taints the game in a way I don’t dig. It’s all about the little things.
about 4 years ago
>Some of us just want a fair game. I wouldn\’e2\’80\’99t want to play chess if you
>could buy a couple extra queens whenever you needed, why would I
>want to play a MMOG that allows the equivilent?
And yet, you probably play a “chess” where the more time you spend playing the game, the more queens you get. Why would you want that?
See, that’s where you analogy breaks down. Chess is a strictly even PvP competition. It would be like you wanting to PvP with someone else with the same level and exactly the same equipment. Of course, few MMOG games provide for this, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that that is your ideal, and not one where you win just because you have better equipment than the other guy, and that you don’t have a desire to beat up on lowbies.
The problem is, though, that most MMOGs are PvE. You’re not playing AGAINST me when you PvE and I PvE. It’s like we’re playing at entirely different chess boards, and we’re not playing each-other. So what do you care if I guy buy some extra queens to play? And what do I care if you have more queens simply because you’ve been playing chess since 2000 and I only started playing last year? We’re not in competition.
about 4 years ago
The problem is, though, that most MMOGs are PvE. You\’e2\’80\’99re not playing AGAINST me when you PvE and I PvE. It\’e2\’80\’99s like we\’e2\’80\’99re playing at entirely different chess boards, and we\’e2\’80\’99re not playing each-other. So what do you care if I guy buy some extra queens to play? And what do I care if you have more queens simply because you\’e2\’80\’99ve been playing chess since 2000 and I only started playing last year? We\’e2\’80\’99re not in competition.
Your missing the bigger picture. We’re talking about MMOGs; Massively MULTIPLAYER – not a series of individual standalone games like Oblivion. In a MMOG, resources are limited by design. Not to stretch a tortured analogy any further (but I will); In your example – when the other guy starts buying more Queens for his game, the Queens aren’t coming out of nowhere. He hires some thugs to go over to the other chess boards (yours and others) and takes YOUR QUEENS and a few rooks and bishops for good measure. If the thugs are using exploits, they just take a boxfull of Queens and dump 20 extra Queens on everybodys boards devaluing everyone’s game (duping).
Your Chess analogy will not work. RMT does hurt a MMOG enviroment.
about 4 years ago
Ummm, the fact that MMOGs are Massively Multiplayer is irrelevant. In fact, MMOG resources in just about every case are emphatically NOT limited by design… the guy who buys the +5 sword ain’t stealing a +5 drop from you, nor is the gold he buys coming out of gold you could farm.
about 4 years ago
“Some of us just want a fair game.”
Let me know as soon as a ‘fair game’ comes out. Until then, this is just wishful thinking while having a pipe dream.
“why would I want to play a MMOG that allows the equivilent”
I guess you won’t be playing any mmog’s then. Ever.
“He hires some thugs to go over to the other chess boards (yours and others) and takes YOUR QUEENS and a few rooks and bishops for good measure.”
Except these pieces are not ‘yours’ now, are they?
about 4 years ago
Most MMORPGs these days have PvP elements, and have areas where players compete over resources.
A “fair” MMORPG would be one where ingame power was due to one’s actions inside the gameworld.
about 4 years ago
the guy who buys the +5 sword ain\’e2\’80\’99t stealing a +5 drop from you,
Unless, of course, the farmer who got it to sell to him did so by monopolizing the only place where +5 swords drop.
about 4 years ago
For those that think ingame currency being traded onm a black market buy those who want to make a profit from someone else\’e2\’80\’99s game design. I suggest you attempt to design a game on your own. If you enjoy playing MMRPGs you\’e2\’80\’99ll enjoy designing one even more.
All I\’e2\’80\’99ve done is created a simple story board and a couple excel spreadsheets for items and a couple MS project files for quest designs\’e2\’80\’a6 Overly simple? Sure. Point being.
End games must eventually be about PvP because the poor developers can not keep up with player demands for PvE content. The end game has to be player driven content for it to be sustainable on a large scale for millions of players.
Now after you start putting all these things together look at what some jerk bottom feeding generating currency for cash will do to your design.
This isn\’e2\’80\’99t like the war on drugs. This is like a group of thugs at the amusement park beating up your other paying customers to allow other customers to cut in line for the roller coaster.
The thugs must be found and kicked out of the park or eventually no one will want to come to your amusement part due to all the thuggery.
about 4 years ago
Aren’t tenuous analogies fun?
It’s quite simple. Some of us want to play a game where RMTs aren’t allowed. There are plenty of places to go and play games where RMTs *are* allowed. Why can’t those of you who want to buy gold just sod off to those games, and leave us in peace?
about 4 years ago
It\’e2\’80\’99s quite simple. Some of us want to play a game where RMTs aren\’e2\’80\’99t allowed. There are plenty of places to go and play games where RMTs *are* allowed. Why can\’e2\’80\’99t those of you who want to buy gold just sod off to those games, and leave us in peace?
Because people who RMT aren’t interested in a level playing field. They don’t want an environment where RMT is legal, they want an environment where they can use their real-world credit card to have an advantage over other players. The relatively poor performance of Station Exchange supports this. All the other excuses (I’m fabulously wealthy/I have limited time/I’m supporting the troops) are just that–excuses to hide yet another way that players want to be better than joo.
about 4 years ago
“I wouldn\’e2\’80\’99t want to play chess if you could buy a couple extra queens whenever you needed, why would I want to play a MMOG that allows the equivilent?”
Further proving a point I made on LtM five years ago.
People need to stop fooling themselves. Every MMO is a PvP game, on some level, whether it be actual combat or by comparison with others. Players need to feel effective, competitive and at the top of their class. And by default, being at the top of their class involves putting other people below you – PvP. Otherwise no one would get worked up about RMT except on a philosophical basis.
The Sleeper is a partyland of RMT. I watched last night as a guy was offering 2K for a Blackguard’s Dudgeon (which usually costs in the 500-750 range). Playing on The Sleeper’s given me another realization – RMT is adversely affecting other players in a more material way than just making them feel lowly. These folks who come fresh flush to the auction channel with plat are paying much more than what the market demands for items, which pushes up the prices for everyone else.
Does this change my mind about RMT? Not really. Play smarter, not harder or with more cash. With a little planning, it’s easy to make cash, experience and loots appropriate to your level. That’s why I can’t get too upset about RMT. I’m making good money, experience and loot for my level, just by being in the right place with the right group at the right time. Albeit, sometimes that time is 4 a.m., but that’s what alarm clocks are for. And besides – it means that if I come across a good piece of loot that I don’t need, I can just as easily get an inflated price for it as I can buy at inflated prices.
If you’re against RMT, what are your motivations? Do you feel like your character is falling behind in gear because of RMT? Why do you care if your character’s falling behind? Heck, what IS falling behind? Do you want your game to be easier?
RMT is not “ruining” games. It’s a scapegoat for a player’s own poor planning and overly enhanced expectations of what their character should be doing. It is only ruining your game because you are allowing it to.
In every MMO that I’ve played, there is no encounter before the raid game (where everything’s no-drop, anyhow) that is not easily beatable by proper levels, smart pulling, strong group composition and teamwork. Gear really doesn’t have that much to do with it.
-Rip
PS. Interesting trivia – the first recorded instance I can come up with of RMT was in 1994 in old Neverwinter Nights on AOL – someone at the annual players’ gathering purchased an Elvenkind Cloak from another player for $200.
about 4 years ago
I can understand as the MMOG market starts to age and more players are now holding down 9-5 jobs why the support for RMT might be increasing. These games use time based systems to distribute wealth and equipment and it seems unfair to those who can only play for a few hours a day. Yet at the moment there is no other way to equate skill in a MMORPG besides time spent. Once you know your class abilities and which keys to press, you are as good as everyone else. This is not a first person shooter where quick reaction times give you the edge. As far as I have seen there has never been a MMO where skill was the factor instead of time spent.
Until such a game is introduced, players need to accept that “time played” is the core game mechanic. When you use real world currency to buy online equipment or gold you are bypassing the core game mechanic. Just because the game is not based on whatever ethereal idea of skill you may have is not a reason for cheating. The justifications I see for RMT often smack of teenagers being jealous because their parents control the allowance. The ironic thing is that most RMT supporters are probably parents while the well equipped players they are so jealous of are probably teenagers or college students.
relmstein.blogspot.com
about 4 years ago
In Eve Online the farmers use small armies of accounts to strip mine asteroid belts in “secure” space and then sell the minerals on the market to get their ingame currency, or ISK.
Eve also lets players legitimately trade subscription time cards for ISK. This was originally allowed because of the difficulties in billing for those without credit cards, but has now blossomed into a full RMT market (apparently the developers are looking for alternatives.) Furthermore, players are allowed to buy and sell characters themselves for ISK.
Eve is all about player competition. The most lucrative resources are mostly found in lawless areas and in limited amounts. Losses can take days to recover from when using high-end equipment. Characters take actual months of training to fly anything but support roles in PvP.
The RMT markets have a number of effects on game.
Low-end mineral prices are dragged down by the massive mining operations.
Anyone can grab a powerful character from a departing veteran without any ingame investment. These include characters for combat and alts that build and mine.
Players throw a never-ending stream of expensive ships into battle without having to take time and recover their losses.
There are no fund-raising operations to target if someone is getting all their ISK from RMT in secure space.
about 4 years ago
People who RMT probably aren’t interested in the playing field at all.
about 4 years ago
“RMT is not \’e2\’80\’9cruining\’e2\’80\’9d games. It\’e2\’80\’99s a scapegoat for a player\’e2\’80\’99s own poor planning and overly enhanced expectations of what their character should be doing. It is only ruining your game because you are allowing it to.”
Yes, RMT is ruining games. RMT is not a scapegoat. RMT destroys hundreds of hours of work when designing one of the funnest to play and most challenging to design elements of a MMRPG, the economy.
Players who use RMT should be banned. People who sell currency for money should be banned. What most MMRPGs lack is enforcement.
How many players would continue to buy currency if the next day they were banned?
Scapegoat that’s just funny stuff… I know let’s not enforce any RMT rules and just start undercutting the illegal sellers prices from the company side.
Obviously you RMT supporters would be okay with a million of currency selling for a nickel. Right? Why not?
about 4 years ago
And while I have a moment…
RMT = devalues one of the elements of game play which in turn means the developers of the game have to maintain the value of a game element while someone else is making 200 million a year devalueing it.
Christ on a crutch RMT made okay = destroyed game via the devaluation of everything in the game. RMT cuts the heart out of why people play the damn game.
So yes, lets just remove economies/trading from MMRPGs because RMT will never go away.
about 4 years ago
“”Players throw a never-ending stream of expensive ships into battle without having to take time and recover their losses.
There are no fund-raising operations to target if someone is getting all their ISK from RMT in secure space.”"
Which is the problem that ruined EVE for me. Once you get past the ‘eek, I won’t go to unsafe space’ barrier, the next step is the ability to do something other than flee in terror against l33t d00ds that camp the 0.0 gates and roam the weakly held alliance terroritories shooting anything that moves.
Once you learn the ropes and can actually put up a fight, it becomes a war of attrition, sometimes over terroritory. One guy gets his T2 shiny using his VISA, another spends tons of time doing risky mining ops or grinds NPC missions. Guess who wins…
The fact that EVE hasn’t closed the Timecards-for-ISK loophole because it makes them REAL ISK (that’s Icelandic Crowns) has kinda dropped the EVE beancounters/developers off the charts for me. Clueless idiots. Buying ingame currency is no more OK even if every real $$ in the transaction is used to pay subscriptions in the end.
about 4 years ago
Comparing RMT to prostitution is surprisingly apt.
In a MMOG, the strength of your social connections is an important factor in how far you go. What RMT does is trade real-world money for a crazily potent and completely disposable social obligation within the game, one that lasts just long enough for a previous total stranger to give you dozens of hours worth of work out of the goodness of his heart.
RMT will be with us, always, as long as there are ways within the game for a player to give something to another player and receive nothing in return.
–GF
about 4 years ago
Amber-
“All the other excuses (I\’e2\’80\’99m fabulously wealthy/I have limited time/I\’e2\’80\’99m supporting the troops) are just that\’e2\’80\ldblquote excuses to hide yet another way that players want to be better than joo.”
You don’t like RMT and you’re letting that cloud your logic. Who cares if someone wants to be better than the next guy? Isn’t that the whole point of playing with/against other players? Ya know so you can compete/play with a real person as opposed to fighting a script and a set of numbers? If you don’t like people who want to be better than the next guy, and you want you maintain some semblance of consistency, then you should also hate the catassers who play to excess to achieve the same goal of superiority.
You might (and I stress might) have a point if it was necessary to not only play all day, but also to spend real life cash to be able to compete at the upper levels. With the games we’re talking about these days, that is not the case. In fact, gold buying barely affects the end-game of WoW at lvl 60, it just lets you get to that point faster.
about 4 years ago
“The game is sacred” is so 1999. Get over it.
Gold farming was ruining economies long before it was being RMT’d, and I would even dare say that there’s no more plat, ISK, whatever in these economies than there would be without RMT.
To give personal example, I started played EVE a couple of years back for around eight months, before all the ISK-for-Time stuff started. And guess what? Massive mining operations were there! Hell, I was in one! Big trawler fulls of the stuff. Players were throwing chain battleships at each other then, too. Though I preferred my little interceptor.
And it was just as hard to carve out a niche then as it is now. EVE isn’t a game for those without patience and perhaps a tint of masochism.
The only difference in the age of RMT paranoia is in the distribution of the goods. Whereas before, gold farmers sat for hours at a time to accumulate cash for their personal coffers, it’s now, in part, distributed to new players via RMT to help them catch up with server advancement after they’ve been left in the dust. Explain how that’s bad for community.
How many people quit games because of RMT? Extremely few, I’d wager. They quit because they can’t keep up with server advancement, they quit because they’re not willing to sit for hours for their gold. But those who quit games because they have such strong philosophical objections to RMT are, I’d say, countable in three digits.
-Rip
about 4 years ago
D-one
“RMT cuts the heart out of why people play the damn game.”
Why do you think people play the game?
RMT cuts out the monotony of getting to the highest levels of competition. Do you think that the hundreds of hours of monotany is the essence of the game, or is it what you do once you’ve gotten past the boring stuff?
For probably the majority of DAoC (talk about monotonous leveling, YIKES) players and players on WoW’s PvP servers the game really starts at lvl 50/60.
If you come from Everquest, then killing the same mobs over and over again until you either move on to a higher level mob or jump out of a window is probably something that you like. If you enjoy the monotony, I can understand why RMT would piss you off. However, understand that very, very few people enjoy the monotony.
I’ve been tooling around on a new WoW server recently and have been accused of cheating and breaking the ToS by at least 100 players so far. Have I been buying gold or botting or any of those other naughty things? Nope.
I use my lvl 60 paladin to body pull about 20 low level elites, let them hit me for a bit until I’m at about 15% health, crit heal myself back to full, rinse and repeat a few times until my paladin has an insane amount of aggro, and then my warlock/mage on my second account with blessing of salvation just AE’s them down with pretty much no risk. Because my characters aren’t grouped and because healing doesn’t affect XP, my mage gets full experience for every kill. I got my mage to lvl 20 in about 7 hours /played and lvl 30 in about 13 hours /played. It’s quite insane. And as a result I’m pretty much loathed by the entire server’s lowbie population. About 1 in 100 /tells is a ‘hey good idea’ and the rest are ‘you suck!’. This tactic might already be common knowledge among higher ups, but no one I’ve talked to before has heard of it.
Anyway, the people of my server don’t like me because I found a way to surpass them, a way that few people can duplicate. That’s how I see the people who get so angry about RMT. They were either unwilling or unable to utilize it on the path to higher levels, and the feel that since they got lvl 60 the hard way, everyone else should have to also.
about 4 years ago
My only thought on this comes from Camelot, where once accounts started showing up on ebay, you would get the random cleric who would try to melee the enemy while is group looked on, stunned.
I know its not quite the same thing, but its in the same vein. I don’t really CARE if you bought your sword from some other dude, as long as you know how to play the game and won’t get me killed. That’s when I start getting annoyed. I don’t want to have to explain to the lvl 50 wizard how bolts work in RVR.
about 4 years ago
about 4 years ago
The demand side of the RMT equation is simply the existence of a sizeable part of a playerbase that wants a “fast-forward” button to a point where they consider the game fun. Though this could be considered a design flaw, I believe that no matter how fun you made lower level gameplay, upper-level gameplay would always look more fun.
I believe that the best way for a company to address this is to set up dedicated servers where RMT’s are offered by the company so that players who are willing to pay for the ability to “fast forward” can, without encouraging the existence of bots and farmers. Certainly, this is worth experimenting with. I am struck by the reluctance of even trying experimentation in this regard.
However, to be fair, there is the “ownership” side of things, which can be pretty tricky. In the current dyanamic, a company can cover themselves by claiming to always own the virtual property across the board, thus disavowing RMT’s. Still, there has to be a way around that.
about 4 years ago
>Until such a game is introduced, players need to accept that \’e2\’80\’9ctime played\’e2\’80\’9d
>is the core game mechanic. When you use real world currency to buy
>online equipment or gold you are bypassing the core game mechanic.
Why should we accept that “time played” is the core mechanic that we should all agree on? Of course YOU like it… especially if you’re someone who has a lot of time to play. Other people can’t play 40 hours a week on a MMOG, and yet still want to feel like they’re making faster progress. RMT lets them do that, and doesn’t lessen your ability to advance by simply playing more.
I can just as easily declare, “Until a game is introduced where time played isn’t a core mechanic, players need to accept RMT is a fair and viable alternative.” Heck, you could even say some games have RMT as a “core mechanic” as well.
about 4 years ago
I’m confused as to why people actually try to argue this point anymore. There are two different philosophical camps, neither of which is going to convince the other.
But the tide is definitely turning – RMT is picking up a lot of ground with current MMO players. Mostly because as the audience changes and grows older, we obviously have less time than we used to. Less than scientific impromptu polls, such as this one on the FoH forums are showing a trend toward player acceptance of RMT.
I think MMOs fall under more of a ‘hobby’ category than they do a simple ‘game’ category. By nature, people end up spending more money on their hobbies than they ‘should’. And is there something wrong with that?
And here I sit, reading an add from http://www.BroGame.com for ‘Amazing 1000 Wow Gold, 10% – 20% Lower than the Market Price’ at the bottom of the page. The times, they are a changin’.
Obligatory caveat: My opinions do not represent those of my company or the team I’m a part of. =)
-N
about 4 years ago
I’m squarely on the anti- side, but I see it as a fundamental game design problem.
In any game that’s not 100% instanced, there is, in fact, competition for resources. If I’m at spot X obtaining the gold/plat/sword/resource there, you aren’t.
Obviously everyone has discovered that if you have more force (either by guild or multi-boxing) you can control the production of more game money/loot. Therefore, in many (most?) games, organizations have formed to do so.
Whether those organizations sell the results for real money or keep them in-game for their own purposes is almost irrelevant. The fact that a bit of content *can* be monopolized means that it *must* be monopolized, because one person’s failure (through reluctance, perhaps) to do so means another’s opportunity to do so. In order to retain the power to go after game resources, one has to be able to take them first, fastest, and if necessary right over the objections of others.
Only (to date) instancing has permitted “you *and* I win” rather than “you and *not* I win” and instancing comes with its own host of issues (namely, that all the above behavior holds sway without even a chokepoint to keep items from flooding the game).
The real money just adds an additional incentive to monopolize anything that can be taken.
Now as it stands this is all very open in a sort of Randian (as in Ayn) fashion. On the poker table, this behavior is fully accepted and expected. Nobody expects that the guy with 450k in chips is going to be nice to me because I only have 30k and am struggling; if he does falter, I’ll soon be the one with 450k and he with 30k, and I’ll squash him.
However, this isn’t poker. Somewhere, theoretically, these games are “role-playing” games and the role that’s described on the box is not Donald Trump but Rilly the Elf or Foo the Wizard. I have yet to read a fantasy novel that had Our Heroes approach the Tomb of Nasty Things only to see a merchant’s tent set up out front with a “Sword of the Tomb, $35″ sign. Theoretically people want to act out this role of elf or space captain or whatever.
I say ‘theoretically’ because although this is the game the designers design and the developers code and *some* of the players buy, apparently the majority of the MMOG playerbase is much more interested in this other game that has nothing to do with adventure but is about solving shortest-path puzzles through the content.
So, my impression is that the games where this second sort of game is successfully curtailed have been relative failures, subscription-wise. So (and the industry people may or may not speak to this) there must be a huge pressure to cater to the farming market, because those guys buy 18 accounts and exhaust the content and keep your company hopping and developers busy, whereas the guy who games for the sake of the game buys one copy (and his other money goes to the farmers so as to keep up).
about 4 years ago
“Yes, RMT is ruining games. RMT is not a scapegoat. RMT destroys hundreds of hours of work when designing one of the funnest to play and most challenging to design elements of a MMRPG, the economy.”
Economy? I’ll let you in on a little secret.
There is no economy in any of the mmog’s designed today. There are ‘attempts’ to have what appears to be an economy in mmog’s, but none are actual economies.
Every single mmog has designed a static market system and wonders why it fails in a dynamic game environment.
No game has actually designed and implemented an actual ‘economy’.
The ‘game design’ of these ‘economies’ is little more than failed expirementation on social engineering.
about 4 years ago
That’s not really correct, weasel – anything where goods & services are exchanged, consumed, and distributed functions as an economy. That is all that is needed.
I would also argue that the only ones that have failed are the ones which no longer exist.
about 4 years ago
You RMT supporters obviously have no problem dismissing EULAs. I suspect you all also dismiss drug laws, copywrite laws, and just about any other law you plain don’t like.
If you intend to break your agreement, you should be denied your subscription/software. Just because they have a lot of trouble enforcing it, doesn’t make it any more ok to do.
I honestly can’t wait for someone to dispute RMT in an american court, just so we can end this bullshit one way or another.
about 4 years ago
“And yet, you probably play a \’e2\’80\’9cchess\’e2\’80\’9d where the more time you spend playing the game, the more queens you get. Why would you want that?”
No, I don’t actually. I find the current dikumud clones to be boring and pointless. However I am capable of seeing the obvious. The game is designed such that you spend time to get better. That is the core of the game, that is how it is designed, those are the RULES. Breaking the rules by advancing through other means that are not allowed is called cheating.
This is not complicated, it is not hard to understand, and throwing out random excuses that have nothing to do with reality won’t make it not cheating. The rules of chess are established, and I choose to play or not play based on those rules. The rules of dikumud clones are that you spend time to make numbers get higher for no reason. If you do not like those rules, then do not play.
about 4 years ago
Now you’ve changed arguments. Before your argument was that RMT was inherently bad. Now you’re just saying RMT is only bad because it’s against the rules. So you should have no problem with games that allow RMT… right? Right?
Lawrence Kohlberg created a theory of moral development that has been widely use is developmental psychology for years. Right now, you’re discussing stage 4, which is the “Law and Order” stage. Most of the rest of us are past that in stage 5 or 6, because we realize that rules are not always right. We’re talking about what the rules SHOULD be.
about 4 years ago
–”Hookers don\’e2\’80\’99t respawn, so you\’e2\’80\’99ve ruined the camp for everyone else.”
Well it coule be said that for each customer the spawn gets progressively worse for subsequent customers.
about 4 years ago
No, just because you like to argue against what you want me to be saying rather than what I am saying doesn’t mean I changed my argument.
And your condecending moral development bullshit is laughable. This is not a society, its a game. A game is nothing but a set of arbitrary rules, trying to pretend real world ethics and morals have anything to do with it at all is ridiculous. Why can’t I use steroids in powerlifting? Because its against the rules. The game is to see who can lift the most within the confines of the arbitrary rules. If you don’t like that game, don’t play.
Why can’t you buy gear/characters/etc? Because its against the rules. The rules establish what is and is not allowed, they create a fair playing field. There is no point to a game if you don’t follow the rules. If you want to play a game of buying virtual items, then go play that game. I do believe there are a few out there. But expecting to be able to play “spend time for no reason game” using the rules of “spend money for no reason game” is like expecting to be able to ride a motorcycle in the tour de france. Play the game by the rules. If you want different rules, then find a different game.
about 4 years ago
Or maybe you should go to a different game. There’s no reason why the “spend time for no reason” games can’t allow “spend money for no reason” as well, since that’s what a large portion of the MMOG public seems to think is fine now. You’re a shrinking minority, just like those people who want unrestricted PvP.
about 4 years ago
I wonder how these people derive their ‘statistics’. It seems a no-brainer to me that the population of objectors could be higher and that they don’t vote the way you’d expect them to because they don’t care too much about the issue since there are so many games on the market to choose from. Such people can just move to a game which has mechanics they like. Or, more likely.. they just keep switching from one to another, never fully satisfied with the one they are playing.
about 4 years ago
“Or maybe you should go to a different game.”
Are you seriously this dumb? Maybe those idiots who waste time training and then using bicycles should “go to a different game” and let the guys on motorcycles play the cycling game right? You are the one who wants to play a different game. You want to play “spend money to make a number bigger”, and yet you insist on doing so in a game defined as “spend time to make a number bigger”. You are the one who does not like the rules of the game, so YOU are the one who should find a different game. You know, one where you do like the rules. You don’t get to go to the olympic committee and tell them “I want to use a forklift in the powerlifting competition, so you guys that don’t like that need to go find a different competition”. If you want to play “lift weights with a forklift”, then go make your own forklift competition.
“There\’e2\’80\’99s no reason why the \’e2\’80\’9cspend time for no reason\’e2\’80\’9d games can\’e2\’80\’99t allow \’e2\’80\’9cspend money for no reason\’e2\’80\’9d”
There’s no reason motorcycles can’t race with bicycles. So if someone makes a mixed motorcycle and bicycle race, then both can feel free to be in it. But that doesn’t mean its ok for people to use motorcycles in bicycle races. The arbitrary rules are the game, that is what defines it. Choose a set of arbitrary rules you like and follow them. Don’t choose a set of arbitrary rules you dislike and then pretend its ok to break them because you don’t like them.
Trying to justify your cheating with red herrings and strawmen doesn’t work. They made the game, and the rules. You either follow their rules, or you are a cheater. End of story. If you do not want to follow their rules, then do not play. Go play a game with rules you agree with.
about 4 years ago
“The game is designed such that you spend time to get better.”
No it’s not. If this were the case every item, including gold and everything else would be no trade/no drop. Every. Single. Thing. If this were true you wouldn’t be able to ‘twink’ new toons. You would have to actually play your new toon.
The reality of game design is ‘the more total time played = more total items/money/crap in game’.
There is no ‘you’.
about 4 years ago
“That\’e2\’80\’99s not really correct, weasel – anything where goods & services are exchanged, consumed, and distributed functions as an economy. That is all that is needed.”
Absolutely incorrect. Game economies are missing a critical component of an economy. Resource scarcity. It doesn’t exist.
“I would also argue that the only ones that have failed are the ones which no longer exist.”
A more accurate statement is that every attempt to creat an economy has failed.
about 4 years ago
“There\’e2\’80\’99s no reason why the \’e2\’80\’9cspend time for no reason\’e2\’80\’9d games can\’e2\’80\’99t allow \’e2\’80\’9cspend money for no reason\’e2\’80\’9d as well, since that\’e2\’80\’99s what a large portion of the MMOG public seems to think is fine now. You\’e2\’80\’99re a shrinking minority, just like those people who want unrestricted PvP.”
This is partly true. The number of people who want to play the game as a game is increasing, but the number of people who are playing the money game is growing much more quickly.
There’s plenty of room in the market for plain fun yet.
I’ve taken your advice, Bruce. My favorite game is not one where farmers control the economy and the lifecycle of the game. Not surprisingly, it’s also a small speck on your current charts.
Speaking of those … I would *love* to see a breakdown by game of subscribers by country. I know it’s not possible, but that would be VERY enlightening.
about 4 years ago
“If you want to play \’e2\’80\’9clift weights with a forklift\’e2\’80\’9d, then go make your own forklift competition.”
Hey, don’t blame the players for doing this in a game system that was designed by the game developer’s that actually [i]promotes[/i] people to use forklifts in human weight lifting competition.
You should really be getting mad at the game designers.
about 4 years ago
“Hey, don\’e2\’80\’99t blame the players for doing this in a game system that was designed by the game developer\’e2\’80\’99s that actually [i]promotes[/i] people to use forklifts in human weight lifting competition.”
Based on what? Yes, buying stuff will get your number higher in less time. But they said you aren’t allowed. That is not promoting it. Using a forklift will let you lift more too, but its also not allowed. In both cases the system says “no you may not do that”, even though in both cases, doing it would give you an advantage. Games are sets of arbitrary rules. Follow the rules or do not play.
about 4 years ago
“Based on what? Yes, buying stuff will get your number higher in less time. But they said you aren\’e2\’80\’99t allowed. That is not promoting it.”
Wow. They design a game system that promotes farming and selling then try to absolve themselves of that decision by making a rule. Every single game has done this. Every single game will be designed to do this in the future. How many games does it take before designers take the hint and make a systemic change? I don’t care how many rules you make, if the code allows players to do it, IT WILL BE DONE.
“Using a forklift will let you lift more too, but its also not allowed. In both cases the system says \’e2\’80\’9cno you may not do that\’e2\’80\’9d, even though in both cases, doing it would give you an advantage. Games are sets of arbitrary rules. Follow the rules or do not play.”
Games are not ‘sets of arbitrary rules’. Games are are code and numbers. This is akin to a game developer stating ‘We want to control inflation. Therefore we are making a rule that states you cannot farm more than 1000 monetary units a day’. Then code a game where you can make that amount of money in an hour. You want change, right? Then start making noise where it will actually affect a change.
about 4 years ago
Hmm, and what part in these ToS which explicitely forbid RMT do you actually construe as promoting it?
In other words, if enough people for RMT bully their way accross, the rest should just curl up and die, never mind the ToS and EULA. Hey, if crime rises, you certainly won’t object to your car getting stolen, right, since that’s what the public seems to think is fine now.
about 4 years ago
“Hmm, and what part in these ToS which explicitely forbid RMT do you actually construe as promoting it?”
ToS? Who gives a shit about the ToS?
THE GAME DESIGN PROMOTES IT.
” Hey, if crime rises, you certainly won\’e2\’80\’99t object to your car getting stolen, right, since that\’e2\’80\’99s what the public seems to think is fine now.”
Reading comprehension difficult for you?
My posts, using your analogy, states that IF CRIME GOES UP, YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE REASONS WHY CRIME IS GOING UP SO YOU CAN STOP IT.
The sheep heard attitude that PLAYERS are bad as opposed to the DEV’S CAN DO NO WRONG WITH THEIR GAME DESIGN/VISION is sickening.
about 4 years ago
What the RMT people want is for game designers to keep RMT bannable inorder to maintain the value of RMT. Does anyone think for a second that a game designers could maintian the RMT values of in game currency? It\\’s too much to ask of a game design.
The problem is it so far has only been bannable on the sellers side.
As I understand it the coding for anti-RMT is a real difficult problem but it is getting closer to functional. Sooner rather than later this is going to be a bitch storm from RMT buyers as they start getting banned enmass.
I find it funny that people want to get the the dead end of content as fast as possible and will actually spend thousands of dollars doing it.
I admit, I\\’ve done it. It ruins the game. So you buy your way to the top, then what?
about 4 years ago
What is sickening is the mentality that any design which isn’t 110% idiot-proof against any kind of exploiting, griefing and abusing makes it OK to abuse it.
Actually, you appear to have cognitive dissonance with your own mind, because what you actually condone in your posts is getting rid of laws and law enforcement and instead blaming car theft on the car manufacturer who don’t sell 100% unstealable cars. Because, by your logic (or lack thereof), a car which can be jacked by any means whatsoever PROMOTES THEFT.
about 4 years ago
“Why should we accept that \’e2\’80\’9ctime played\’e2\’80\’9d is the core mechanic that we should all agree on? Of course YOU like it\’e2\’80\’a6 especially if you\’e2\’80\’99re someone who has a lot of time to play. Other people can\’e2\’80\’99t play 40 hours a week on a MMOG, and yet still want to feel like they\’e2\’80\’99re making faster progress. RMT lets them do that, and doesn\’e2\’80\’99t lessen your ability to advance by simply playing more.” SirBruce
Part of the idea of any game is that there is a set of rules which define how you play it. You are playing the game then you have agreed to follow the rules. I have no problem with RMT in games which were designed to support it as a core mechanic. However, most games weren’t designed for huge influxes of in game currency. The devaluation of in game currency can become so bad that the only way anyone can afford items is to buy currency from farmers.
I’m personally against RMT in games since I’ve seen it time and time again used to boost someone to an higher level without any knowledge of how to play the game at that level. I am a programmer myself and only see about 15-20hrs a week to play. However I make smart auction house sales, save my money, and tend to avoid virtual bankruptcy. I’m also an American and I will say that RMT seems to be gaining strength mostly because of USA gamers. Just because we have money doesn’t give us the right to break rules and try to ruin what developers have spent years designing.
All in All I really wish someone would bring the virtual goods debate to the courts so we could get a decision on it.
relmstein.blogspot.com
about 4 years ago
Weasel is right.
The current MMOG designs intentionally try to retain customers through a design model that requires long hours of repetitive play.
As part of the incentive to endure this process, players receive not only the larger numbers of levels, statistics, and items, but also access to more interesting areas of the game. We get done with bats and rats and move on to orcs, and finally to dragons (or whatever).
There are sound reasons for this design. One, a player should grow accustomed to the game so as to be an asset to his team later (because it’s fun to play well, and frustrating to self and others to be over one’s head). Two, no design team can possibly produce new quality content fast enough to compete with thousands or millions of players, and the business model of MMOGs requires that players at least stick around for X months to make the business profitable. Three, it provides a continuity of story; as in the archetypal Campbellian hero story, people start as the wide-eyed fool and end as the wise, strong hero-king.
However this, to use the chess analogy that’s been floating around, is like being asked to learn chess by starting with only a couple pawns, and then after some time being given more pawns, then a knight … and only after months of play then being allowed a queen.
This annoys people, who want to get to the game they paid for in less than forever; so they shorten the process, EULA be —-ed.
EULAs are toothless; accounts galore can be tracked and banned, but if farmers are making millions, what’s a few $40 boxes? Besides, no matter how earnest the enforcement, every farmer caught and banned probably means nothing more than a bit more money for the game company. Analogies could be drawn to other enforcement efforts in the real world, which I won’t write about for fear of derailing the thread.
Now despite being firmly on the “game should be a game” side, I hardly blame the players (who don’t like treadmills); the designers (who are trying to make a game which shows a profit, and does not have reviewers and players squawking about ‘finishing’ in days or weeks). Even the farmers I only blame *because* their effort gets in the way of other players’ gaming; other than that they’re providing a service somebody wants.
As a stopgap I actually like SOE’s method; give the people who want to buy their way in their own sandbox to play in, and let the people who want to play the ordinary way do so. (It’s partially effective from what I’ve seen; on regular servers farming is not gone, but it’s much reduced).
The real issue is that nobody has really tackled the baseline design of MMOGs (that Campbellian hero’s journey thing) and truly answer the question of what the Hero does once he’s a Hero.
Some designs answer with PvP. Once you’re a Hero, beat the snot out of other Heroes. This just feeds right back into the treadmill, because Hero+ beats Hero, and Hero++ beats Hero+, and so forth. Whether you enjoy PvP or not, this is *not* an answer to the question of farming.
Others just up the ante; in expansion XLIII the heroes, having already destroyed the known pantheon of deities and overthrown time and space, now find themselves faced with … pirates! (by a remarkable concidence, these pirates are just tough enough to challenge god-slayers and universe-rulers, but for whatever reason have elected to sit around on their pirate ships). Back on the treadmill!
IMO a solution which truly stops the treadmill will, as players near the end of the existing content, starts turning them from content consumers into content providers. When you’ve amassed a million gold pieces, your life is no longer one of a carefree adventurer. You could buy a small hamlet, and maybe you have! Or you’ve constructed a wizard’s tower … and being like most wizards, a dungeon underneath. Are you a merchant? Then you need a shop, and employees, and have less and less time to go hunt dragons.
(You’ll find this theme in many fantasy and SF novels; the hero of the first novel becomes the guide, the mentor, the villain of a subsequent novel while someone else takes the limelight).
In short, start giving players responsibility, which gives them something to do AND gets them producing content. The trick, of course, is to keep that content creation in line with your game theme and outside of areas which would bring a shower of lawsuits down upon your company…
Solve this and you’ll not only have a robust, dynamic, world instead of a treadmill, you’ll also have the content creation nightmare alleviated and the farming problem under control.
about 4 years ago
Popping in to say that I agree with weasel on most counts and Joe + D-One are kind of out in the “conservative MMO commentary” field.
I understand what both of you guys are talking about, but it’s just… too utopian. I loved the fact that MMOs let the have-nots dominate the haves if only for a little while in some corner of the internet. But utopia can only last for so long, right?
The thing is, games still and always will exist that allow players to compete in a virtually RMT-free environment. Smaller niche MMOs, many MUDs, and non-MMO online games will provide you with this type of play. The mainstream MMOs, however, will not be as they once were ever again.
Now is the time to accept RMT for what it is and understand WHY players take part in it. Incorporate these findings into your design to either maximize profit or minimize RMT’s corruption of the system. Banning is not a viable solution. It is a tool in a solution, but not one in and of itself.
And to Joe-
Rules are only words unless they are enforced. Do not take EULAs and ToS so seriously, or you might find a very dark version of the real world when you notice that people actually jaywalk when they’re not supposed to!
about 4 years ago
My last point. I\\’m repeating myself now.
If RMT was not a bannable offense and was allowed to go on unchecked, in short order there would be no game left. The farmers wouldn\\’t have anything profitable to sell and the gameplayers who function on greed wouldn\\’t have anything left to crave.
about 4 years ago
I still can’t believe people have come to think that breaking the rules of a game is OK.
Not every rule can be put into code and automatically enforced, and so they have to be put into agreements. RMT falls into this category along with things like exploits. “If duping wasn’t allowed then it wouldn’t be possible! It’s encouraged by the game design!”
about 4 years ago
Until the legal definitions of virtual property are hashed out in U.S. courts, the EULA’s legal basis isn’t worth the bytes that it’s transmitted on.
There’s a legal leg and precedent to stand on for the people who believe as I do. Domain names are “virtual property” just as much as gold is, on a much larger scale.
They are produced by a single company that derives its income from their sale, and that is contingent on a handful of companies that hold up the Internet’s infrastructure doing their job. You pay for the service of the company, they legally now have a host of restrictions about what they can do with your “property” and its transfer or denial of use by the host company. You can also assign a dollar value to it, and it is not created until your actions cause it to exist. Although, when the rubber meets the road, it is still owned by the company – you caused it to exist, though you are now only renting it (i.e., once it expires, it remits back to the originating company.) It can be transferred to another owner freely and for profit, though you are only the renter.
In broad terms, there’s very little different in the legal basis for ownership of MMO virtual property. I too look very forward to the day when this is finally settled by the court system, No. 6, although I anticipate you’ll hear a much, much different answer than the one you’re hoping for.
-Rip
about 4 years ago
When you were young and trick or treating, did you ever come to a house that had a bowl of candy outside the door that said ‘Take one’? Did you take just one or did you loot the whole bowl for the kinds of candy that you like?
Making someone click through a ToS is almost exactly the same. If the system is set up so that people can abuse it, it will be abused. As imweasel is saying, the solution isn’t to try and catch the offenders, it’s to change the system to prevent such abuses.
In WoW, a good (but incredibly unpopular) solution would be to make all blues and purples BoE, dramatically increase the drop rate of blue/purple items levels 1-45, make item enchants item-level dependent, and reduce the cost of epic mounts. This would reduce the desire to buy lots of gold to twink out lowbies, since twinking beyond level-appropriate greens is no longer possible. Twinking and the path to 60 are why most people (imo) utilize RMT, so if the benefit of RMT in that aspect is nerfed, people will utilize it less. The blues/purples drop change will reward people who actually play the game from 1-60 as opposed to powergaming RMTers who just grind the path to 60, upgrading greens as he goes.
about 4 years ago
Ignoring the simple reality of the situation will not make cheating ok.
“Rules are only words unless they are enforced. Do not take EULAs and ToS so seriously, or you might find a very dark version of the real world when you notice that people actually jaywalk when they\’e2\’80\’99re not supposed to!”
Crossing roads is not a game. You can debate the moral and ethical reasons for having laws against jaywalking, and wether or not such laws should exist. A game is not like this. A game is an arbitrary set of rules that all participants must follow. There is no moral or ethical reason for any of the rules, they are simply there to define the game. There is no moral or ethical reason not to use steroids, its an arbitrary rule that all participants must follow. Yes, its a totally unenforcable rule, and many people think it is stupid. But that’s still the rules, and breaking them is cheating. This will not change no matter how often you trot out the same strawmen. Its not about ToS or EULA compliance, its about following the rules of the game. Why is it ok for you to cheat at “spend time to make numbers bigger”, but its not ok to cheat at chess, or cycling, or powerlifting?
“Until the legal definitions of virtual property are hashed out in U.S. courts, the EULA\’e2\’80\’99s legal basis isn\’e2\’80\’99t worth the bytes that it\’e2\’80\’99s transmitted on.”
The EULA has nothing to do with it. Chess does not come with a EULA at all. Does that mean if I suddenly claim I can buy new queens whenever I want, its not cheating? Just because the supreme court hasn’t handed down a verdict declaring something illegal, doesn’t mean its ok. You pro-RMT nuts sure do like to confuse laws in the real world with rules in games don’t you?
“Games are not \’e2\’80\’99sets of arbitrary rules\’e2\’80\’99. Games are are code and numbers.”
Wow! I am impressed that you managed to come up with a statement so stupid that it is actually shocking. Yes, games are sets of arbitrary rules. That is exactly what they are. Video games happen to have “code and numbers” that enable you to play. That doesn’t change the fact that the game itself is a set of arbitrary rules. Cycling is a set of arbitrary rules too, even though you can also say “its bikes and roads”. The bikes and roads allow you to play the game, the game is still defined by its arbitrary set of rules.
about 4 years ago
“Crossing roads is not a game.”
Frogger.
about 4 years ago
“\’e2\’80\’9cCrossing roads is not a game.\’e2\’80\’9d
Frogger. “
pwn3d
about 4 years ago
Frogger is not crossing roads. Frogger is a game, defined by rules like “you can jump this far” and “you can jump this often”, and “you need to get to the other side without dying”.
You can make a game out of crossing the road (real roads, or pretend ones like in frogger), and that game can include whatever arbitrary rules you want. That has nothing to do with jaywalking though. That is a law, theoretically in place to protect people. You can debate wether or not that law is needed, and wether or not it is moral to break that law if you feel it doesn’t harm anyone. Arbitrary rules can’t be judged in the same way by their very definition. They are arbitrary, there is no moral or ethical reasoning for the rules of a game. The only moral/ethical question is wether cheating at games is ethical or not.
about 4 years ago
Joe, we get the point. You like rules. Enough already.
Have you ever let someone else use your account? A family member or a friend visiting your house perhaps? If you have, chances are you violated your game’s ToS and are as much a cheater as anyone engaging in RMT.
Face it, quite a lot of ToS’s these days contain way too much garbage that doesn’t belong in them. It looks like the majority of people these days think RMT prohibition doesn’t belong with the rest of the other ridiculous ‘rules’.
To loosely paraphrase Pirates of the Caribbean, [TOS's] aren’t so much rules as guidelines.
about 4 years ago
“What is sickening is the mentality that any design which isn\’e2\’80\’99t 110% idiot-proof against any kind of exploiting, griefing and abusing makes it OK to abuse it.”
Once again, completely incorrect. I am not breaking any game mechanics. I am simply farming like every one else. I make tons of gold. If I was using a bot program or some super sekret haxxors to dupe tons of loot, then that would be bad.
I am playing the game within the confines of the game mechanics.
EULA’S DO NOT EQUAL GAME MECHANICS.
People like this are prime examples of why intelligence is no longer a survival trait.
about 4 years ago
Damijin and No. 6 actually get it.
Don’t blame players for BAD GAME DESIGN.
You can blame them for duping, haxxoring and using racial slurs in a game.
But if you actually want to fix something INSTEAD OF BITCHING ABOUT IT?
Talk to the game designers.
about 4 years ago
“Ignoring the simple reality of the situation will not make cheating ok.”
The only person around here that appears to be ignoring the simple reality of the situation is you joe.
about 4 years ago
“If I was using a bot program or some super sekret haxxors to dupe tons of loot, then that would be bad.”
“I am playing the game within the confines of the game mechanics.”
Using a bot program is playing within the confines of the game mechanics too. So you admit that botting is cheating, even though its possible within the game mechanics, but you insist that RMT is different? Sounds like you are ignoring reality doesn’t it?
about 4 years ago
Bot programs interact with the program, possibly even changing the packet stream. So does sekret haxxor stuff.
Now if the interface allows macros (such as uoassist), then yep, bot it all you want within the confines of the program.
The reality you seem to be ignoring is that game designers actually design their games to promote rmt. Then they try to absolve themselves of any responsibility by simply making a rule OUTSIDE of the game to ‘fix’ their unwillingness/inability to…ummm…actually design a solid (not even a good) game. Then sheep…err…folks come along and say ‘PLAYERS ARE BAD MONKEYS’ so game designers can wipe their brow and tell themselves that they dodged a bullet thanks to the loyal flock.
Or in other words…
EULA’S do not game mechanics make.
about 4 years ago
The best way to make RMT disappear is to make possessions ephemeral and very situational. Of course, this defeats much of the “cumulative character” model, but that model needs serious defeating anyway.
I would imagine that people who are the most bent out of shape about RMT, though, tend to be not terribly interested in cumulative character in the first place. If you let players accumulate possessions, to assume they will not trade them for money, sex, or funny jokes is folly. You could go for a “central planning” model where everything has a value and something can only be traded for equals, but you tell me if that’s any fun.
about 4 years ago
Oh, and fuck you, I always just took one piece of candy.
about 4 years ago
imweasel’s entire argument to support RMT is based on not liking the mechanics and rules of current MMOs.
This is not a valid debate point. This is called “holding a grudge”.
about 4 years ago
“imweasel\’e2\’80\’99s entire argument to support RMT is based on not liking the mechanics and rules of current MMOs.
This is not a valid debate point. This is called \’e2\’80\’9cholding a grudge\’e2\’80\’9d.”
Support? Why shouldn’t I support rmt. The dev’s create the system! Or even better yet, why shouldn’t I point out the flaw of blaming the player’s for playing the game the way game developer’s designed it?
Folks want to go around complaining about a symptom without addressing the problem.
And to be frank, I could care less whether rmt existed or not.
about 4 years ago
Perian: “You could go for a \’e2\’80\’9ccentral planning\’e2\’80\’9d model”
No thank you! We have enough of that insanity out in Arr Ell (RL).
Well, actually, the whole economy of every MMOG is centrally planned; wealth enters the game at points designated by the designers (usually mobs) and leaves through necessary expenditure points (money sinks) also designated by designers.
However, you’re talking about what happens after that.
My point of view is just that in so far as outside sales affect my gaming, I care. Here are some ways it does in various games:
- Organized loot collection (farming) inflates the as-designed rate of influx of items and money; therefore prices of key items inflate, and generally characters are more powerful than designed; therefore designers account for this in later content, with the result that players must participate in the DRM or be unable to play later content;
- Content intended for and appropriate for my character is monopolized by farming concerns;
- Expectations of the player base include that characters will be equipped in a fashion only possible for people buying their equipment, resulting in lost opportunities or scorn if one doesn’t choose to participate in that routine.
(Probably more, but I’m mostly through a good quantity of Sapporo and, well…)
Anyway as my earlier post asserted these are all consequences of the design. It’s a matter of opinion as to whether this is BAD design; certainly it’s successful commercially and popular. It’s bad for *me* because I want to play within a self-contained economy. Frankly, if my interests lay in buying and selling for profit, I’d spend my spare time on ScottTrade or something. I really don’t know why the other people who *do* enjoy mucking around with MMOG economies don’t play the stock game instead; maybe the competition’s too tough there :p
about 4 years ago
I’m having a very hard time sorting out exactly what the “pro-RMT” camp believes.
Here’s what I’ve gathered so far.
-In general, they actually do believe that RMT is bad, and that it hurts people who don’t participate in RMT.
-However, they believe that it should be condoned because
-They believe that games designed around mechanical character progression are bad?
If anyone could give me a clarification on this, I’d be most obliged.
about 4 years ago
Banning RMT is banning Human nature. When you do that, bad shit happens.
This dosn’t mean you tolerate farmers.
Ebay is not IGE.
Shrug, the ONLY MMO to crush the value of its RMT market without causing massive inflation is Eve-Online. How? Allowing people to buy gametime from them and sell it for in-game currency.
about 4 years ago
The real answer is to figure out what is undesirable about RMT, and what doesn’t have a huge impact on your game, or rather, what you can live with.
Online games don’t tend to work really well without interaction with other players. A large part of that interaction comes from trading “stuff” for other “stuff”. Typically speaking, cutting that part out in order to “save” the game from RMT is a poor idea at best.
So what has impact on someone’s playstyle?
* Is it the guy who buys a few hundred gold so that he can continue to play with his guild because his job keeps him too busy to play as often as he might like?
* Is it the father who buys a new horse for his kid’s birthday? (This is kind of weird anyway, but the kid would probably be pretty stoked with that kind of gift.)
* Is it the son of the retired father who pays a few bucks to a power-level service so that he can play with his dad who’s passed him up?
Where do these impact other people’s playstyle?
The real answer is not these small transactions, but when any of these people run into someone who negatively effects their playing session. This negative influence may be in the form of a bot or a farming ring, but that’s little different than the griefer they may run across during their evening play session.
We know that people will mostly attempt to take the path of least resistance. Perhaps the answer lies not in getting rid of RMT – a natural progression of a free market that exchanges goods for services, but rather in finding ways to eliminate the unsavory aspects brought on by RMT – namely bot farming and griefing.
Food for thought.
about 4 years ago
Excuse me while I derail -
Wrt Lum’s original post – (I can’t believe you missed this).
From the article – “Millions of gamers think the trade is fine.”
Also from the article (the headline) – “For millions of Chinese, playing computer games is a livelihood”
That’s where the millions come from – Duh!
about 4 years ago
-However, they believe that it should be condoned because
It seems you forgot to finish this line. So.
RMT shouldn’t be condoned, it should be “accepted”. It is something that exists. No amount of forum whining can take it away.
Perhaps in days of yore when it was a sweaty guy selling 50 plat on ebay for a few bucks, it was possible to stop it. However, with so many jobs and lives depending on this industry… it will not stop. Anything short of a flat communist world where there are no poor and there are no rich will fail to end RMT.
So the question that us RMT proponents raise is “How do we incoporate this, to allow those who want to take part to do so, and allow the rest to be relatively unaffected?”
Most of us agree that design has a large role to play in how RMT manifests in individual games. I am not against the classic model of character advancement. I am simply proposing the question: Can farmers, buyers, sellers, and purists exist in a game together? Can we see a farmer and regard him as a player? Can a farming guild be considered competition, just as much as any other guild?
I think what anti-RMT really comes down to is jealousy over the amount of time that someone else can spend on the game, if they are playing it as a job. And then of course jealousy over those who have money and advance themselves by giving jobs to farmers (buying). A large cry of “UNFAIR!” comes to mind. But you know people who buy money often cry “unfair” at those who are well enough off in life to sit at a PC for 15 hours a day grinding.
So what does it come down to?
Deal with it.
(and maybe lobby for design that is “RMT-aware” so that dumb decisions aren’t made in the economy that will lead to a slippery slope of bots and inflation)
about 4 years ago
“So what does it come down to?”
Games that initially support RMT, and I mean in every way, I think are acceptable. What has gotten us into a mad fit was several people’s insistance that current MMOs, which have rules against RMT, should just accept RMT.
However, in any market, there should be variety. Games are no exception. Some MMOs might want RMT, but most do not support it right now. What RMT supporters should be doing is encouraging new MMOs into allowing RMT, instead of attacking current MMOs.
about 4 years ago
and
In soccer, the pitch is marked out by a set of lines. According to the rules of the game, if the ball goes over these lines, it is out of play and a restart follows. Of course, it’s possible that a ball may go out of bounds and continue to be played if the referee or linesmen don’t call the rule infringement. (Let’s assume, for this example, that the ball fully, obviously and unquestionably goes over the line).
Would you say that the player who kicks the ball out of bounds but then carries on playing is cheating or just doing what the “game mechanics” enable him to do (the game mechanics in this case being that the pitch line is representative of a boundary rather than a physical barrier)?
about 4 years ago
“This is simple proof that game companies are idiots.
No game or game company manages to learn from the prior mistakes made from previous games and game companies. “
What he said
except there isn’t a lesson to be learned here other than this type of game format is super-broke in the long term. It is nothing but an endless stretch of e-penis waving, regardless of if the subject matter is fairplay or munchkin-ism. Most people tend to be munchkins in some way; even if only because the more aggressive playerbase leaves them with a player /ecology/ that is nonexistant at lower levels; and yet they also want to define how other munchkins play.
This isn’t necessarily a double-standard. Most players have a good bit of fun to lose with inflation, so their issue apparently lies with how much inflation they are comfortable with, and where it is coming from.
As weasel has hinted, RMT is fairly easy to scapegoat, and IT IS HARMFUL, but it is still the sympton of a much bigger problem, which is an infinitely flawed game format.
about 3 years ago
Hello. DMFXLK2 [url=http://www.tDMFXLK3.com] DMFXLK3 [/url] Thanks