Comments on: It’s All About The Rabbits http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/ Random Comments About Games and Tractors Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:56:56 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: BPLlama http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-2/#comment-2483 BPLlama Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:37:42 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2483 "For people to stick around long term they\'e2\'80\'99re going to have to believe they can affect and change the world and that the world changes around them, essentially becoming a new game every day. How much fun would a TV show be if nothing ever changed?"<br> <br> A TV show may change, but the people watching the show are not the ones who cause that change - it's the writers and producers of the show who drive the change. (Reality TV could be considered an exception I guess, but even then the producers have a really heavy hand in controlling things from behind the scenes.)<br> <br> Likewise in an MMORPG, why shouldn't the development team be the ones driving the change and adding new content to the game? This is certainly the approach Blizzard is taking with WoW, since they won't allow anything to detract from the high level of polish which is the trademark of all their games. They want to ensure every part of their game has a level of quality and consistency (in terms of rules, appearance, etc) that your average player-created stuff generally can't match. Sure, players can generate an awful lot of very cool content, but for every 1 cool thing that's created you'll also get 100 awful things cluttering up your world, and detracting from the game.<br> <br> Procedural content creation and player-created content can have a huge positive impact, but it's got to be really easy to filter and control what gets into the game, or you just end up with a big mess. That's the problem that nobody's really solved yet (although we'll see how well Spore does on that front...) “For people to stick around long term they\’e2\’80\’99re going to have to believe they can affect and change the world and that the world changes around them, essentially becoming a new game every day. How much fun would a TV show be if nothing ever changed?”

A TV show may change, but the people watching the show are not the ones who cause that change – it’s the writers and producers of the show who drive the change. (Reality TV could be considered an exception I guess, but even then the producers have a really heavy hand in controlling things from behind the scenes.)

Likewise in an MMORPG, why shouldn’t the development team be the ones driving the change and adding new content to the game? This is certainly the approach Blizzard is taking with WoW, since they won’t allow anything to detract from the high level of polish which is the trademark of all their games. They want to ensure every part of their game has a level of quality and consistency (in terms of rules, appearance, etc) that your average player-created stuff generally can’t match. Sure, players can generate an awful lot of very cool content, but for every 1 cool thing that’s created you’ll also get 100 awful things cluttering up your world, and detracting from the game.

Procedural content creation and player-created content can have a huge positive impact, but it’s got to be really easy to filter and control what gets into the game, or you just end up with a big mess. That’s the problem that nobody’s really solved yet (although we’ll see how well Spore does on that front…)

]]> By: Steve http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-2/#comment-2482 Steve Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:18:13 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2482 "How much fun would a TV show be if nothing ever changed?"<br> <br> You've obviously never watched a sitcom, or don't think they're fun. :) “How much fun would a TV show be if nothing ever changed?”

You’ve obviously never watched a sitcom, or don’t think they’re fun. :)

]]> By: Ian http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-2/#comment-2481 Ian Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:36:31 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2481 If there's one thing UO taught me that's always remained true to this day, it's that you can't build any system into any online game that people won't try to exploit/manipulate in a way you never could have imagined. Build it, and they will come.... to screw it up any way possible. (share's lum's pessimism) If there’s one thing UO taught me that’s always remained true to this day, it’s that you can’t build any system into any online game that people won’t try to exploit/manipulate in a way you never could have imagined. Build it, and they will come…. to screw it up any way possible. (share’s lum’s pessimism)

]]> By: Xyntar http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-1/#comment-2480 Xyntar Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:12:41 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2480 I still disagree that this fantasy 30 million subscriber game is going to be some static world treadmill like WoW, not if you want 30 million concurrent. The only reason WoW has reached that high is because Blizzard has managed to successfully leverage its extreme goodwill among gamers. WoW will likely hit 30 million subscribers ever, but people aren't going to stick around. I would really like to see what the turnover has been like for them, I'd wager it's been growing larger and I think once the expansion comes out and people realize it's the same shit all over again, you're going to see a mass exodus within 6 months of its release. Scripted quests are only interesting as long as they're new. If game is truely going to come along that will replace TV it's going to have to be a lot more free form, it's going to have to resemble a world instead of a colorful well rendered chessboard. For people to stick around long term they're going to have to believe they can affect and change the world and that the world changes around them, essentially becoming a new game every day. How much fun would a TV show be if nothing ever changed? I still disagree that this fantasy 30 million subscriber game is going to be some static world treadmill like WoW, not if you want 30 million concurrent. The only reason WoW has reached that high is because Blizzard has managed to successfully leverage its extreme goodwill among gamers. WoW will likely hit 30 million subscribers ever, but people aren’t going to stick around. I would really like to see what the turnover has been like for them, I’d wager it’s been growing larger and I think once the expansion comes out and people realize it’s the same shit all over again, you’re going to see a mass exodus within 6 months of its release. Scripted quests are only interesting as long as they’re new. If game is truely going to come along that will replace TV it’s going to have to be a lot more free form, it’s going to have to resemble a world instead of a colorful well rendered chessboard. For people to stick around long term they’re going to have to believe they can affect and change the world and that the world changes around them, essentially becoming a new game every day. How much fun would a TV show be if nothing ever changed?

]]> By: SirBruce http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-1/#comment-2479 SirBruce Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:28:15 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2479 Well, I would say that if you have a few tens of millions and a compelling product differentiator, like a particular IP or specific genre, there's nothing wrong with going after 200K subscribers -- you can still make money at that, and serve a market niche with little competition. But you certainly shouldn't delude yourself into thinking you'll get millions like WoW, and if you DO want to get millions like WoW, you need to come up with a product that's both innovative and that builds on the lessons WoW has to teach.<br> <br> Bruce Well, I would say that if you have a few tens of millions and a compelling product differentiator, like a particular IP or specific genre, there’s nothing wrong with going after 200K subscribers — you can still make money at that, and serve a market niche with little competition. But you certainly shouldn’t delude yourself into thinking you’ll get millions like WoW, and if you DO want to get millions like WoW, you need to come up with a product that’s both innovative and that builds on the lessons WoW has to teach.

Bruce

]]> By: D-0ne http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-1/#comment-2478 D-0ne Wed, 07 Jun 2006 13:04:27 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2478 "And that\'e2\'80\'99s exactly why I couldn\'e2\'80\'99t play WoW for more than 2 weeks on 3 different attempts whereas I played UO for 5 years."<br> <br> And you still seem to think in terms of a niche gaming market. Who cares what you think or even what 200k of you think.<br> <br> WoW has millions of players. And WoW designers still haven't gotten the mass market RPG right. What kind of person want's to appeal to the mass market? The kind of person that wants the luxury of making niche games in the future with their own money, not with someone elses.<br> <br> What you and what others like you want will soon be marginalized (which is what you deserve and have deserved for years, again not a personal insult just business) and a game will eventually come along that caters to 30 million subscribers...<br> <br> "That'd be terrible!" Really? A brief observation of what companies are literally spending tens of millions of dollars on right now.<br> <br> Lets spend millions making a game called Vanguard that has 2 hour long corpse recoveries and 30 minute travel times and let's argue about why we should keep these things past beta... When that 2 hour corpse recovery happened to me I laughed and deleted the game from my hard drive. Talk about niche market! Mandatory suffering? Optional suffering? What? No one would do that if it weren't mandatory! Not even the people who want it mandatory? No shit Sherlock?<br> <br> This is where these kinds of discussions lead and they have no place in business.<br> <br> <br> WoW failed, in that for some stupid reason the designers are still listening to the niche 200k rather than other common 5 million.<br> <br> I remember when I posted that a good MMORPG would come along and that a good game would have over a million subscribers and some one brilliantly pointed out that there weren't that many MMORPG players...<br> <br> 30 million subscribers world wide is not a pipe dream it's reality. Now stop all the acedemic nonsense and build the fucking game already. “And that\’e2\’80\’99s exactly why I couldn\’e2\’80\’99t play WoW for more than 2 weeks on 3 different attempts whereas I played UO for 5 years.”

And you still seem to think in terms of a niche gaming market. Who cares what you think or even what 200k of you think.

WoW has millions of players. And WoW designers still haven’t gotten the mass market RPG right. What kind of person want’s to appeal to the mass market? The kind of person that wants the luxury of making niche games in the future with their own money, not with someone elses.

What you and what others like you want will soon be marginalized (which is what you deserve and have deserved for years, again not a personal insult just business) and a game will eventually come along that caters to 30 million subscribers…

“That’d be terrible!” Really? A brief observation of what companies are literally spending tens of millions of dollars on right now.

Lets spend millions making a game called Vanguard that has 2 hour long corpse recoveries and 30 minute travel times and let’s argue about why we should keep these things past beta… When that 2 hour corpse recovery happened to me I laughed and deleted the game from my hard drive. Talk about niche market! Mandatory suffering? Optional suffering? What? No one would do that if it weren’t mandatory! Not even the people who want it mandatory? No shit Sherlock?

This is where these kinds of discussions lead and they have no place in business.

WoW failed, in that for some stupid reason the designers are still listening to the niche 200k rather than other common 5 million.

I remember when I posted that a good MMORPG would come along and that a good game would have over a million subscribers and some one brilliantly pointed out that there weren’t that many MMORPG players…

30 million subscribers world wide is not a pipe dream it’s reality. Now stop all the acedemic nonsense and build the fucking game already.

]]> By: SirBruce http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-1/#comment-2477 SirBruce Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:10:53 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2477 I find myself largely in agreement with KilljoyX, and said as much on Raph's blog. I think dynamic simulation is REALLY COOL, but unless you get it right it interferes too much with gameplay, and getting it right has proven notoriously difficult in the MMO space. Even the rarely-fallible Will Wright couldn't make The Sims Online work right. My biggest concern with Spore is that it has to hit that sweet spot, where it's not so open-ended that there's no game, but not so on rails that it's no fun.<br> <br> Sure, you can layer static content over the dynamic, so people who want to kill the dragon can go kill the dragon and not want to go kill bunnies to get the dragon. But in that case, how often will that dragon attack caused by bunnies actually happen? Pretty rarely, and playes may not even be able to tell it was caused by low bunny population -- with so many complex moving parts, it may look essentially random to them. So then you have to question whether spending all that time and effort tuning the dynamic system was actually worth it.<br> <br> Bruce I find myself largely in agreement with KilljoyX, and said as much on Raph’s blog. I think dynamic simulation is REALLY COOL, but unless you get it right it interferes too much with gameplay, and getting it right has proven notoriously difficult in the MMO space. Even the rarely-fallible Will Wright couldn’t make The Sims Online work right. My biggest concern with Spore is that it has to hit that sweet spot, where it’s not so open-ended that there’s no game, but not so on rails that it’s no fun.

Sure, you can layer static content over the dynamic, so people who want to kill the dragon can go kill the dragon and not want to go kill bunnies to get the dragon. But in that case, how often will that dragon attack caused by bunnies actually happen? Pretty rarely, and playes may not even be able to tell it was caused by low bunny population — with so many complex moving parts, it may look essentially random to them. So then you have to question whether spending all that time and effort tuning the dynamic system was actually worth it.

Bruce

]]> By: caladein » PvP as Sport http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-1/#comment-2476 caladein » PvP as Sport Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:47:11 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2476 [...] Abalieno (original comment): “And in PvP you need immobility. You can have unexpected situations coming out of a proper use of the pieces, but you cannot have new pieces showing up and coming into play.” [...] [...] Abalieno (original comment): “And in PvP you need immobility. You can have unexpected situations coming out of a proper use of the pieces, but you cannot have new pieces showing up and coming into play.” [...]

]]> By: caladein » PvP as Sport http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-1/#comment-2475 caladein » PvP as Sport Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:38:56 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2475 [...] Once again, awesomeness from Broken Toys. The whole set of comments are an interesting read, but a discussion regarding PvP peaked my interest (quoting the germane parts). [...] [...] Once again, awesomeness from Broken Toys. The whole set of comments are an interesting read, but a discussion regarding PvP peaked my interest (quoting the germane parts). [...]

]]> By: Xyntar http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/comment-page-1/#comment-2474 Xyntar Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:19:16 +0000 http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/05/its-all-about-the-rabbits/#comment-2474 "That is EXACTLY why WoW ended up eating 50+% of the industry in only a year. Because they treat their service as a GAME first and foremost, they don\'e2\'80\'99t conduct social experiments and complicated virtual economies or player governments, they just make a game."<br> <br> And that's exactly why I couldn't play WoW for more than 2 weeks on 3 different attempts whereas I played UO for 5 years. Games like WoW cease to be fun once you realize that the entire game is the same, from start to finish, except your armor gets pointier and your weapons get more absurd. Games where you can build communities and make a place for yourself remain fun longer than games that are just games. There was a 6 month stretch in UO where I rarely left the Yew bank area because there was always something going on that didn't involve going out and "leveling up". Anyone that spent any time in Yew pre-UO:R on Great Lakes will most likely remember YRA and the havok we wrought. WoW guilds will be at best remembered as "yeah, those guys spent a lot of time running instances". I can't count the number of people that I've talked to that have said repeatedly "I don't know why I still play WoW, it's not fun, but I keep logging in and running the same instances."<br> <br> Also, WoW succeeded because apparently Blizzard has brainwashed millions of people, they've been forgiven things that other companies would have been crucified for, I've never understood that. “That is EXACTLY why WoW ended up eating 50+% of the industry in only a year. Because they treat their service as a GAME first and foremost, they don\’e2\’80\’99t conduct social experiments and complicated virtual economies or player governments, they just make a game.”

And that’s exactly why I couldn’t play WoW for more than 2 weeks on 3 different attempts whereas I played UO for 5 years. Games like WoW cease to be fun once you realize that the entire game is the same, from start to finish, except your armor gets pointier and your weapons get more absurd. Games where you can build communities and make a place for yourself remain fun longer than games that are just games. There was a 6 month stretch in UO where I rarely left the Yew bank area because there was always something going on that didn’t involve going out and “leveling up”. Anyone that spent any time in Yew pre-UO:R on Great Lakes will most likely remember YRA and the havok we wrought. WoW guilds will be at best remembered as “yeah, those guys spent a lot of time running instances”. I can’t count the number of people that I’ve talked to that have said repeatedly “I don’t know why I still play WoW, it’s not fun, but I keep logging in and running the same instances.”

Also, WoW succeeded because apparently Blizzard has brainwashed millions of people, they’ve been forgiven things that other companies would have been crucified for, I’ve never understood that.

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