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Learning the right things from people who are afraid we learned the wrong things when they learned other wrong things.
Raph Koster has a pointer to a rant on Gamasutra about how World of Warcraft sucks.
Nothing new there… (checks watch) Yep, it’s been a little over a year, time for the backlash to hit the mainstream. Still, this article is pretty interesting, especially from the point of view of its author. He happens to be a competitive Street Fighter player, so you can probably guess where he comes down on the player skill vs time investment discussion. And again:
…playing a fair game is what it’s all about. It would never occur to us to play a game where one player gets to do 50% more damage because he has a level 60 Chun Li.
The problem, of course, is that not everyone is going to be a wizard at playing Chun Li. The barrier of entry to knowing exactly how to blow away people with arcane 8-step combo moves is far higher than a “level 60 Chun Li”… and learning how to do them – how to be a competitive, truly skilled player, I would argue, would take more time than grinding your Chun Li to 60. It would feel fairer to some to be able to leverage their hand-eye coordination or whatever to “pwn” people more effectively – but would people resent being “pwned” any less because someone was able to game the system instead of grinding out levels? This is, of course, an old discussion, and Raph’s hit on it more than once.
There’s some other surprising takes in the article as well, that challenge a bit our preconcieved notions of “WoW as the casual MMO”. To wit:
Group > Solo. You can forget self-reliance, because you won’t get far in World of Warcraft without a big guild. By design, playing alone (even if you are the best player in the world) will get you worse loot than if you always play in 5-man dungeons. If you always play in 5-man dungeons, you’ll always get worse loot than if you play in 40-man raids. The player base has been hit over the head for so long with this notion of 40-man raids, that players are taking that as given. I see so many people who have been fooled into thinking this is justified, that it actually scares me. They think that you shouldn’t be allowed to get good loot unless you do something with 39 other people, because that’s harder. Coordinating 40 people is hard, but so is winning a Street Fighte tournament, which you have to do by yourself.
This is interesting to me on a couple of different levels.
World of Warcraft actually discourages grouping, at least during the 1-60 character building stage, for the majority of gameplay. To be precise, the experience doled out in groups makes for a far less efficient character growth rate than if the players were solving quests solo. Not only that, with the exception of elite quests and instances, the entire game can actually be played solo; in that it’s one of the most forgiving MMOs in that regard.
That this player took away “World of Warcraft enforces grouping” from this tells me that the groups he felt he had to be in were SO jarring, and SO resented, that they shaded the rest of the experience. (The references to “40 man groups”, which only occur in the vastly different post-60 elder game, tend to bear this out.) To quote again:
Unfortunately, the game offers no difficult solo content leading to good loot. (Note to picky readers: there is some, but it’s soooo far out of whack with raid rewards that we can safely ignore it, the same way Blizzard does.) The designers must be so extraverted, that they can’t fathom the introvert point of view.
Again, within the same paragraph: “There’s no content for my playstyle. Well, there is, but the other stuff is better. You know it, I know it, Blizzard knows it, so it just doesn’t exist for me.” This is a far more important lesson to learn than what he is actually saying. As long as there is content percieved as “better”, players won’t settle for what they can easily achieve through their own devices. They will resent not being able to get The Best.
And again:
Warcraft\’e2\’80\rdblquote maybe accidentally\’e2\’80\rdblquote hit upon this concept, and now seems spit on it and all those who appreciate it. If a Blizzard developer read this, his PR department would say they are not spitting on this play-style, but unfortunately the game design speaks louder than words. “Spit on” is exactly how I feel. But far worse is the idea that millions of children are learning that doing things on your own is bad. Albert Einstein accomplished far more in the field of physics by himself during off-time as a patent clerk than a 40-man raid of so-so physicists ever would. I want little Johnny in Idaho to learn that lesson, but he sure won’t find it in World of Warcraft. 40 mundane people with a lot of time would put Albert Einstein to shame any day of the week in this game.
Little Johnny in Idaho may be learning bad lessons, but the lesson Little Scott in Virginia is learning is that as long as 40 man raids exist, there will be people who wish they didn’t have to do them – but still want the rewards that were crafted to reward the combined efforts of 40 people. This is important: rewards for the effort of 1 person isn’t good enough. As long as better exists, that will be the baseline. “Why can’t I get the same stuff as the 40 people working together. I’m smart! I should be able to get the same stuff! Or stuff just as good. It had better be just as good, too, or else it may as well not exist.”
The author also dislikes one of the primary pillars of community in an MMO:
You’re either with a guild, or you’re nobody to them. I can’t imagine being in only one IRC (chat) channel at a time, or choosing only one gaming community, yet I can only join one guild at a time. It’s a very weird social environment with the same dangers as nationalism and flag-waving.
I wonder if the author has settled on one family yet.
Seriously, this part kind of strikes at the core of community building. Like attracts like. We join guilds that have people that we get along with. If we don’t, we don’t last particularly long. If we do, we form bonds of friendship that persist beyond the game itself. This is a pretty key part of what makes the community behind MMOs tick, and the author’s rejection of these out of hand makes me wonder what sort of enforced guild grouping he felt he had to endure to get Those Shiny Things Only 40 Man Raids Give You. If you’re detecting a theme, congratulations!
And finally, the author decides that rules are bad.
The very idea of using the terms of service as the de facto way to enforce a certain player-behavior goes against everything I’ve learned. A game should be a system of rules that allow the player to explore. If the player finds loopholes, then the game developer should fix them. It’s never, ever the player’s fault: it’s the game developer’s fault. People who currently make deals with enemy faction (Horde or Alliance ) to trade wins in battleground games are not really at fault. They are playing in a system that forces anyone who wants to be rank 14 to do exactly that. A line in the Terms of Service saying that you shouldn’t behave this way changes nothing, and teaches nothing.
Cheating is fine, because the players learned how to cheat. The game developers should wave a magic wand and fix it! Failing that, they should just let players evolve new forms of gameplay. I believe the terminology used for this in Ultima Online was “creative uses of magic”. Needless to say, most people that found this term used during an interaction with customer service found it an insulting, patronizing copout.
Players expect an even field of play. Developers absolutely have to fix bugs as they are discovered, but that does not give players carte blanche to discover and exploit interesting ways to break the game. The author seems to resent the fact that terms of service exist, but I suspect if he played a game where they were honored only in the breach his opinion would change dramatically.
These examples go on and on, but the basic idea here is that Blizzard treats the players like little children who need a babysitter. There are mountains of rules in the terms of service that tell you that you shouldn’t do things that you totally can do in the game if you want. Why they don’t just alter their design and code so you can’t do these things is beyond me. But this mentality is drilled into the players to the point that they start believing that it’s ok. They start believing that it’s not ok to experiment, to try out anything the game allows in a non-threatening environment. Well\’e2\’80\rdblquote that’s a dangerous thing. That’s the point at which the game stops being “fun” by Raph Koster’s definition, and it’s also the point at which the game can no longer teach. The power of games is that they empower a player to try all the possibilities that he can think of that the game rules allow, not that they have pages of “rules of conduct” that prevent you from creative thinking.
Which is all well and good. I want to explore new frontiers in cyberspace and new ways that men pretend to be women to get other men to give them shinies too. But in most worlds, including the one we happen to live in, running afoul of the community standards (our world calls them “laws”) isn’t excused by the complaint that the offender was “exploring the boundaries of society”. Amazingly, there are folks who aren’t joyous explorers of the human psyche, but just want to be irritating weasels. Thus why rules exist. Thus why “babysitters” exist (in our world, we call them police officers). I totally can rob money from stores and punch random passers by in the face. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to do this? Those damn terms of service, getting in the way of my fun!
Back to seriousland, what this tells me is that there isn’t enough education about why rules enforcement exist. Grizzled veterans of gameplay ‘experiences’ past know that people online are, nine times out of ten, raving assholes. I’ll grant the author a blissful ignorance on this one, and give Blizzard bonus points for making a world with such a well-enforced rule set that the author can’t understand why it exists in the first place.
Sometimes, you learn things you didn’t expect in places that didn’t expect you to learn them.
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about 4 years ago
> I wonder if the author has settled on one family yet.
This strikes to the heart of why he’s right on this one point at least, and all the major MMOs are wrong.
I haven’t settled on one family, and I’ll bet you haven’t either. I’ve got the family I was born into, the friends I made in my backwoods Connecticut hometown as a child, the friends I made in college, the friends I made in college, the friends I made in my new home in Silicon Valley, the people I work with, and numerous other “families”. These groups overlap. I spend more time hanging out with my coworkers and SV friends than I do with my birth family…and yet, I go home to be with that family most every Christmas. I feel no less close to them despite that fact.
The standard MMO guild structure is utterly antithetical to way people associate in life. It encourages–and sometimes forces–people to pick one association and stick to it in preference to all others.
If real life worked the way MMO guilds do, I’d have been forced to give up my family when I went off to college–and again, when I got a job. Sorry kid, isn’t uber enough to raid SysProg…come on, it’s only got a dozen members and half of them haven’t even hit level 17 and gotten their mounts yet. Time for you to drop that tag and join .
I started playing WoW with various real life friends. We founded a guild so we could hang out and chat together. Over time, however, half of those people have left the guild for others. Some wanted to raid, some wanted more roleplaying, and so on. It wasn’t that they wanted to stop associating with the rest of us–just that the game mechanics forced them to make a choice.
I’ve played one game that didn’t limit guild membership: A Tale in the Desert. The average player in that game belongs to a dozen guilds or more. There are the family guilds, which keep friends close to each other. There are the corporations, where people coordinate large group activities. There are the regional guilds, where all the inhabitants of a given region gather to chat. There are the affinity guilds, collecting people who share a common interest. THIS is how people form associations in real life: Not artificially bound to a single circle of people, but caught up in a gloriously complex web of relationships.
about 4 years ago
lol, I just read that right before i checked your site and was thinking some of the exact same things. What a noob.
I hate how there are so many articles popping up written by these WOW newbs. At least let someone who knows what they are talking about write their articles (I have come to expect more from gamasutra anyways). Then the flood of new players coming to the genre sees these things and takes them as biblical scripture.
Is old school completely dead?
~Dunadurium
about 4 years ago
pot
kettle
black
that is all
about 4 years ago
I actually read that whole article! While waiting in a WoW BG queue.
That guy is a jerk. WoW is one of the most solo friendlt games out there. I am solo (or duo with my wife) most of the time while leveling to 60. Even after 60 I’m solo or duo EXCEPT for BGs or high level dungeon raids.
And about the rules, there are lots of things that the game designers COULD prohibit, like killing Civilians for example, but dont prohibit. They impose penelties but allow it. There are lots of other things that the game designers cant or wont code in but are still against the rules and it seems perfectly sensible to have some written “Thou shall NOTs”.
After all, God (our designer) COULD have designed us to not kill our fellow man, but instead She gave us freedom of choice between right and wrong AND 10 written rules.
about 4 years ago
Damien, I agree with you to an extent and i think this is especially if not exclusively a wow/”casual game” thing.
I mean the first time I tried WoW i flew to lev 10-15 with no need of any player interaction at all. The first time i grouped for a quest, we went through and did good 2-hour series of quests, the whole time this pally spoke to me maybe 5 sentences. When we were done he thanked me for grp and was off. It was almost like a mutually beneficial deal that went down. Both parties benefiting at the moment but neither needing to keep in touch. This went on through the levels. There were relatively few people that actually would sit and talk in the minimal downtime. The fact being that the game absolutely does encourage solo play. Grouping is just a means to get things done as apposed to a community building fundamental element. Grouping in WOW almost seems like your just being used. After you disband and wander off never to meet each other again, it feels like the community aspect of WOW is non-existent. So yeah, when you get in a guild in this game it feels like you are cut off from every other group of people.
What ever happened to having a friends list? When I quit I had maybe 15 people on my list, of those maybe 5 I ever saw on a half regular basis.
In EQ when I quit I had countless numbers of names (going back a few years of course) but of those I had different groups of good friends. Like the guys I grouped with a year ago that maybe don\’e2\’80\’99t play as much any more, or some people from my early noobish guild, as well as a few of the friends from when I was a noob that went different ways or joined a different group.
What I\’e2\’80\’99m saying is that an MMO community can be EXACTLY like what you describe, and in fact that\’e2\’80\’99s what makes it interesting. In WOW this is not that case and the game is actually almost the opposite-where community means nothing more than a way to advance your own personal game, instead of being part of something larger. This may also stem from the relatively fast progression rate in that a player may max a character in a month or two and move on to another, never to touch his first one(or just rarely log it on).
Overall my personal thinking is that a \’e2\’80\’9ccasual game\’e2\’80\’9d of the WOW fashion cannot truly foster meaningful communities of the style that a more \’e2\’80\’9chardcore\’e2\’80\’9d or long-term game can.
Just my two copper of course so feel free to expand on it,
~Dunadurium
about 4 years ago
Hmm this article prolly is more interesting for the way the mentality that he describes in http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm , reacts to a game like WoW.
I agree with him that rules should be fixed though, relying on a human arbiter will produce arbitary results, hard and fast rules will avoid this problem.
about 4 years ago
Dunadurium, I think you’re missing my point and replacing it with another.
Calling WoW a “casual game” is pointless. Yes, it has a faster level grind to $MAXLEVEL than some of the competition, and it’s generally easier to level without grouping. It also has just as many catasses as any other game out there. There are the people who grind honor points for twelve hours a day, every day, in order to max out their PvP rank. There are the people who spend 4-5 hours a day in raids, and just as much grinding faction or the like.
WoW supports much the same communities as other games of its ilk. Yes, the lack of downtime and increased soloability means that the social structure while leveling is different from the old EQ. I very much doubt, however, that the nature of a family, RP, or raid guild is substantially different between WoW and EQ–and what differences exist will be largely a matter of how much history the games have accumulated.
No, the problem is that EQ and all of its heirs that I am familiar with discourage membership in multiple communities. Being a member of a family guild, an RP guild, and a raid guild is generally mutually exclusive. The attitude that people must “settle on one family” is utterly absurd, and corrosive to the social fabric of the game.
about 4 years ago
the part where he compared wow players to eistein made me laugh.
to console myself over the rest of the article i simply replaced phrases like “terms of service” with “no rules” and phrases like “self reliance” with “co-operation”
about 4 years ago
Shouldn’t that be %MAXLEVEL?
I agree on the Time > Skill point, personally.
MMOs reward the stupid and the obsessed. There must be a better way, unless every development studio believes that “stupid and obsessed” is an ideal market.
I suppose that for a long-lasting subscription, it is.
about 4 years ago
Damien I agree with you on this, i did actually jump the gun and just skim over your post.
Overall what I was getting at is that MMOGs provide an environment where it is very possible to form these different groups and circles within a game community, and while a game may provide limited infrastructure to accommodate these things naturally happening (guilds, families, fellowships etc), you need not solely rely on them as there is the freedom to achieve them in alternate ways. The thing that does hamper though is if the game is already designed to fail in the social aspect, which is why I cited WOW.
So I fully agree that a virtual world supporting more or alternate social structures, especially in a game that is designed for community, is a great idea and definitely something that games in the future can take to another level.
~Dunadurium
about 4 years ago
That article starts up interesting but in the second part, you just feel that the guy is simply ranting, trying to use his “what do they teach” argument to back him up.
UO still remains the only true MMORPG to date I think. The whole character development concept and the freedom you had in the game are things I really miss. Hopefully, some day, some game company will come back to simple things, where items don’t really matter, where you don’t have bunch of levels just to keep you busy, where you can focus on the character itself and have it simply living in a world…
about 4 years ago
>As long as there is content percieved as \’e2\’80\’9cbetter\’e2\’80\’9d, players won\’e2\’80\’99t settle for what they can easily achieve through their own devices. They will resent not being able to get The Best.
about 4 years ago
Nice of it to eat the rest of my post.
about 4 years ago
The author of the article overlooked another big flaw in WoW and video games in general, the lesson that ‘cheating is ok’. It seems cheating in many forms is rampant in all video games, from cheat guides, cheat codes, eBayed resources, game ‘add-ons’, to blatant hacks. What is startling is the growing acceptance of this as being normal and ‘ok’.
about 4 years ago
The complaint about “one family” is prefectly valid in the vast majority of MMO’s, where the text system is highly restrictive. Eve, with the ability to have user-created chat channels, multiple chat windows open, resizeable, and tabs which flash when people speak should be the VERY minimum.
And in Eve Online you CAN stab a passerby in the face, or loot your corp’s bank and run away with it.
about 4 years ago
Allow players to cheat the system? Toss out the ToS? Oh God… I feel an Ultima Online rollback flashback coming on!
about 4 years ago
I see the problem as a lack of PvP focus on the world as a whole.
Forty man raids are fine. The problem with the design of every MMORPG’s 40 man raids is the lack of actual political design of reward and punishment in the game’s PvP. Your enemies should be able to hurt you in more ways that just standing over you and chanting “azzrape”. How about a system of get enough black marks and you *can’t* do the 40 person raids because too many members of the community think you’re a jerk? Complicated? Not really. Unfair? Not really. I can’t think of a single time in the last 15 years in any online game where 5 let alone 10 people would have marked my avatar as a jerk in game.
I don’t have the time for a multipage discussion on this, I honestly wish I did have the time. The problem is not one of rewards but of punishment.
The problem is that a jerk can gain more, more quickly (just by being available for action) in all of these games than an honestly nice person (who isn’t available 24/7). The community has no way to punish, penalize or drive out anyone.
The problem isn’t mechanically how rewards are being distributed but to whom they are distributed. Just my nut job opinion.
about 4 years ago
“We join guilds that have people that we get along with. If we don\’e2\’80\’99t, we don\’e2\’80\’99t last particularly long. “
You’re using the royal ‘we’ here. No “WE” (I) do not join a guild for those reasons. I join a guild that antagonizes me the least while providing me a means to an ends. People suck. I don’t group with them, guild with them or otherwise interact with them willingly. I do so only as much as I need to working towards a given set of goals.
In DAOC it was to RvR so I had to join a guild that ran a near perfect 8 man group or it didn’t even go into the frontier (I sidestepped guilding there and stayed with my one man guild name thankfully so I least didn’t have to interact with them outside of combat).
In WoW it’d be a raiding force who can farm or near farm BWL. They get a healer that is out for perfection within his class, I get my gear. Everyone gets something. I don’t have to like them, I just have to do my job and do it well enough that nobody really cares if I laugh at their jokes.
Depending on how you define ‘long’ you could argue that since I don’t stay with the same group every single MMO I’m meeting your criteria of not ‘lasting long’ but within the confines of a single game I tend to last for some time.
“If we do, we form bonds of friendship that persist beyond the game itself.”
I don’t want those bonds. I want a god damned game that I can pick up and put down when I have time. When I want to form ‘bonds of friendship’ I’ll take up golf with the admirals.
“Grizzled veterans of gameplay \’e2\’80\’98experiences\’e2\’80\’99 past know that people online are, nine times out of ten, raving assholes”
And you want me to be friends with them or not progress. Yeah great idea there.
about 4 years ago
Two ways to combat the “stupid and obsessed”…
1. Make them pay for the content they consume. For a WoW example… make a player pay a micro-transaction to enter Molten Core. So if the catass consumes faster they pay more. It makes sense because they ARE using the games resources MORE. Casual gamers pay less.
The problem will still exist in this model and more likely it would create a seperate debate about who has more money. However, the people paying for more content have every right to defend that they are paying for it and that if someone not paying for more content can just quit.
The problem with WoW and monthly sub MMORPGs is that they create a falsehood of “everyone is created equal” because they are all paying the same. I pay $15 and deserve the same as the catass paying $15 a month.
But like I stated changing the business model doesn’t get rid of the problem, but it does make it easier to defend. The people paying more support the game more and therefore deserve more than those unwilling to pay less or unskilled enough to progress far enough to purchase more content.
NOTE: I don’t really support this model, but I understand it’s appeal. My hunch is SOE has a game featuring this business model hidden away.
2. Fast progression with player created content as the end game focus. This is a much more appealing solution to the problem. Think Ultima Online and the skill system. The general “skilling up” was a short period. The acquisition of “uber loot” was null and void because you really spent most of your time in the regular crafted gear.
Magical items were used, but really didn’t turn your character into a super power house ala WoW or EQ “uber loots”. Yes the items were more powerful, but with the high turnover of weapons and item decay they were in and out of the system (aside from the Blessed weapons).
With UO’s fast progression everyone was soon on the same playing field. Most content at this point was player driven (talking pre-Trammel days). The catass may be online for 12 hours and own a castle, but there was probably a guild of casuals a click away that had already built an entire town.
Then there was the PvP aspect which had a somewhat “player skill” driven concept. Better PvPers would kill lesser PvPers. Player Killers (PKs) ran rampant and soon there was Anti-PK springing up all over.
Player drive content combats catass because the majority of gamers are not cat asses.
about 4 years ago
Raph Koster is a nutcase. Plain and simple. I’ve had this viewpoint for years now. He’s never seem completely ‘right’ to me, no matter how many times I’ve read his work, hear his talks or meet him in person. He’s always seem a little off kilter. But back to the topic at hand.
Raph has a few points, I think. Although he then streaches them far beyond reasonable. For one thing, if you focus his discussion on end game content, which most people feel is the real meat of a game, then his points make sence. Building up to end game, typicaly is seen as just a hurdle that needs to be passed and serves no purpose other then to delay people from the end game.
That being the case, while many do enjoy the large population of many MMOG’s. The difficulty they have tends to be an issue of time and patience. Many, with limited time, or limited patience, tend not to do well in raid based settings. This is because, Raids are slow, long, but I argue, typicaly unchallenging. Why unchallenging? Because you as the player typicaly are an insignificant aspect of the whole situation. You’re just one of fourty. a small fry that, while part of the whole becomes a strong force, you’re not really all that spectacular in what you do individually. It doesn’t seem challenging, and typicaly you’re just repeating the same function your class was primarly designed to do. Heal, swing a sword, or cast a spell. Their is no creativity in Raiding. Their can’t be because trying to orchestrate 40 people to do anything complexe usually is a Herculean trial of frustration and futility.
That being said, Smaller raids, with just as good rewards but increased difficulty, can offer players more personal stories, more telling adventures and more interesting content to explore then yet another tale of defeating Ugh`sloghoth the Sloth Giant Lord for the 50th time to get the Ring of Slothyness but then, you lost the roll so you’ll need to go on another 50 raids and hope it pops again.
THAT sounds like fun?
about 4 years ago
PvP game fan discovers WoW was not designed for his playstyle. News at 11:00!
I hope that designers are now passed the point where they think they can hit all or even most playstyles in a single world and do a decent job for any of them. Unless of coarse you have mulitples of WoW’s budget.
The guild issues have some broader appeals. I think it should be remembered that real communities are largely meta-game. In game systems should take that into account and enable that instead of working against it.
about 4 years ago
The exclusivuty of guilds has many problems. It also prevents the creation of narrow groups – say, a group of clerics that want to talk about cleric stuff – because said group is combat ineffective.
Guild like tools must exist for forming “weak” groups of like minded players. You are right I want to hang out with like minded people, the trouble is I have a bunch of different like minded people and “like minded” isn’t transitive so we can’t put them in one giant uber guild.
about 4 years ago
Neglecting one play style for another works both ways. If solo items are just as good as group items, there won’t be any reason to do a group activity except for the hell of it (or more like the “fun” of it, which as we know, isn’t really fun).
In that sense, I think Guild Wars got it right. The second best equipment is easy to get with minimal grinding. The best equipment is only slightly better, but requires tons of grinding. It isn’t considered efficient and the edge it gives is not noticable, but they do look much better than the second best. It gives catasses a sense of accomplishment, but it doesn’t really help them better to overcome someone in second-best gear who is much more skilled in pvp.
I figure as long as pvp remains mostly inaffected by item benefits, people can settle for at least second or even third best, because skill differences will actually show.
The point about communities, I think you hit it right on the money as usual. I dislike most people, and the people I happen to like aren’t on my server or I have to level up to 60 again to play with them on their server (or vice versa) and also have to deal with their 18 friends who I don’t like. In order to get to them, we need to both sacrifice something huge to our gaming experience for a while. The only way around it would be as if we bought the game brand new and we leveled together, and that’s not really possible for most people who already have a 60 grinding the dungeons.
about 4 years ago
“I can\’e2\’80\’99t think of a single time in the last 15 years in any online game where 5 let alone 10 people would have marked my avatar as a jerk in game.”
That’s because marking you as a jerk wouldn’t tick you off.
There are going to be 5, let alone 10, people who under any black-mark system will be sitting on a ledge in the city and spamming /target-next-player /blackmark-target.
–GF
about 4 years ago
>>Damien Neil says on February 23rd, 2006 at 2:27 am:
>> I wonder if the author has settled on one family yet.
> This strikes to the heart of why he\’e2\’80\’99s right on this one point at least, and all the major MMOs are wrong.
> I haven\’e2\’80\’99t settled on one family, and I\’e2\’80\’99ll bet you haven\’e2\’80\’99t either.
He’s married. Chances are high that he meant the family you might found some day instead of the one you’re born into. And yes, that’s actually, at least to me, more tight-knit than my much wider circle of friends.
> # Andrew Crystall says on February 23rd, 2006 at 7:46 am:
> Eve, with the ability to have user-created chat channels, multiple chat windows open, resizeable, and tabs which flash when people speak should be the VERY minimum.
You know you can do that in WoW too, right?
about 4 years ago
Thank jebus Scott saw this whackadoo for what it is – I read the article before I read his commentary and was starting to fear the worst…
The argument that someone should be able to “solo for epics” is nothing more than e-peen envy. I’d be willing to bet that half (or more) of those people wouldn’t say a word if the colors weren’t universally known to be the “tiers” of loot valuation. How long before they’re bitching about not having solo-friendly Legendaries? Wit the new ultra-ultra-uber zone hitting in the next-ish patch I’m sure there will be a new half-dozen of them entering the loot tables for also-rans to be pissed about. I say that in a rather derogatory way, but my point is simply this – harder content == better rewards. While some look at that and say “it just requires time” or “lols grinding” – that shit ain’t easy. Access to those ultimo items is my reward for conquering difficult content.
Within the paradigm of WoW’s “normal” gameplay there is simply no reasonable way to make something as challenging as Hakkar (or Ragnaros, Magmadar, Nefarion, Azuregos, et al) that would then be worth an equivalent loot table. With 20 and 40-player groups you can craft scenarios that require 3 different kinds of crowd-control, 3 off-tanks and 5 pooled healers or any of a hojillion other “strategies”. You can’t do that when your 5-player encounter, by definition, excludes 3 classes from attending.
about 4 years ago
Note: I have a great guild and a great group of friends that allowed me to catass 1..60 very, very quickly. After that I have raided at what could only be described as a languid pace. I raid 1-2 end-game zones a week at most and enjoy the lovely hues of my various accoutrements.
I have cake. I eat cake, too. It’s not impossible.
about 4 years ago
You do deserve just as much reward for playing solo as for playing in a 40 man group. You confirm the guys theory “people who group are more important than people who don’t”, but then say he’s wrong because 40 people should get better loot? How does that make any sense?
40 people should get 40 times the loot, not better loot. If you want the best gear, you must group with a huge group. That is stupid. You should be able to get the best loot solo, or as a group. Most people don’t want to be in huge groups, they just have to because its the only way to get the best gear.
about 4 years ago
Hank, then there’s no point grouping, since organising those 40 people is a challenge in itself. If grouping is pointless..why is it a MMO?
Gwaendar, WoW is by FAR the best MMO on the market for UI. It is perhaps the one thing from WoW which I hope other MMO makers will learn. (Did I mention I know Lua?
)
I mentioned Eve becase I really do thing it does the reasonable minimum. But other MMO’s in the pipeline like DDO and Auto Assualt…do not :/
As for rolling for loot…I like DDO’s system. Everyone can pull something out the chest. If it’s not what they want…they can trade.
about 4 years ago
Oh, and Hellfire?
Thanks for illustrating the weakness of a class-based MMO
about 4 years ago
Raph Koster is a nutcase. Plain and simple. I\’e2\’80\’99ve had this viewpoint for years now. He\’e2\’80\’99s never seem completely \’e2\’80\’98right\’e2\’80\’99 to me, no matter how many times I\’e2\’80\’99ve read his work, hear his talks or meet him in person. He\’e2\’80\’99s always seem a little off kilter. But back to the topic at hand.
I’m stalking you, too.
But FWIW, I didn’t write the article.
about 4 years ago
Sirlin’s entire argument is based off a flawed assumption. He believes that the only way for a MMORPG to be “fun” is to “win” and that “winning” requires the “phatest leewt”. The best loot is (currently) in high level PvP and 40-man raids. Everything else is time-investment grinding.
I saw a lot of similar sentiments in DAoC. RvR was all. Leveling to 50 (or whichever battleground was popular) was the dues you had to pay to play the “real” game.
Frankly, I have never seen the appeal of high level content. For me, the “fun” is the leveling. The developement of the character. I have never in my 8+ years of MMORPG playing ever maxed out a character. Not even in UO (where in the stack-of-pennies-macro days was laughably easy). When the character starts to stagnate, I loose interest and move on to something else.
The run-all-over-creation missions in AO killed the game for me. Skill grinding in SW:G killed the game for me (I am most bitter about this one. LUM FIX PLZ K THX). The lack of noticeable improvement lvl45+ killed DAoC for me.
about 4 years ago
(awwww, Raph has a best buddy!)
“weakness of a class…” – Out of context quoting, but I play a paladin so I have to capture funny where I can.
In all seriousness: Everything I was talking about is withing the existing WoW paradigm. If you look at Eve or DDO or make fundamental changes to the “normal” way WoW works? Totally different ballgame.
WoW follows in the EQ mold of “randomizing” loot tables based on the mobs you’re killing. It doesn’t bother me per se, but I’d love to see more attention paid to the people who participate vs the RNG. Baby steps, I guess. I’m just glad shaman BP’s no longer drop during Alliance raids.
ZG/AQ do solve *some* of that within the existing game mechanics. The quests are the quests, the components/faction to fulfill them are your rewards. You know exactly what you’re getting and approximately how much effort it will take from day-1. This is then supplimented by the “standard” loot drops that MMO players expect from whacking a giant foozle.
about 4 years ago
I will say it once more: “How many wildly succesful MMORPGs will it takes before developper consider soloing a valid playstyle ?”. The solo-friendliness is no stranger to it’s mass appeal success.
Grouping is not the end-all be-all of player retention and there is many soloer playing your games for YEARS that it’s not even funny.
You Scott; you Raph; may keep playing games because of the social ties made within it; but me, and scores of others, end our subscription the day a guild or a large group is required to play…
about 4 years ago
Hellfire you’re as bad as the original author. Catass finds out he doesn’t like casual gamers at 12!!!!?!?!?!?!?!111one!!#@$
about 4 years ago
The general idea that other people suck and we all have to live with that is a major, major flaw in MMORPGs today.
Politics and chaos and PvP effecting the world are ignored in todays MMORPGs and that’s a bad thing. These things would solve a lot of the “issues” currently under debate.
Heros in Fantasy never had the best gear. They had the best souls.
about 4 years ago
I agree with some points in the article (namely that raids shouldn’t give the absolute best gear, but that’s mostly because I think from a pvp standpoint such a huge gear discrepancy screws everything up), but mostly reading this last night annoyed me to no end.
Yeah, I think raph’s a loon. A smart, well spoken loon. Basically my idea of fun and his don’t jive, so I’ll just disagree a lot. But this whole article wasn’t really raph’s thing.
The one point that stuck me was “If you invest more time than someone else, you “deserve” rewards. People who invest less time “do not deserve” rewards. This is an absurd lesson that has no connection to anything I do in the real world. The user interface artist we have at work can create 10 times more value than an artist of average skill, even if the lesser artist works way, way more hours. The same is true of our star programmer. The very idea that time > skill is alien.”
That is obviously written by someone who has never beaten their heads against the brick wall of a College Degree. Simply getting to the point of an interview in most jobs (at least on the east coast) is a quick pass over with “time in college” being more important than finding out if the person is skilled. Once you get past that, you can try and prove you’re good, but there are plenty of things in the world that assume time spent doing something (even say, 7 years of experience sucking at something versus a genious with 1 year of experience writing ground breaking code) is more important than actually evaluating skill. Or for something very basic, no matter how good a cook you are, if someone else starts to simmer for 30 minutes before you do, you’re not going to finish the 30 minutes of simmering before them.
Anyways, the whole thing pretty much comes down to gear, and WoW’s suprising lack of stat caps (for the pvp game at least). Without stat caps, gear gets more and more out of hand, and leaves the non raiders more and more outclassed even if they decide to simply play the pvp game. I raided, I enjoyed it, but it wasn’t very fair when my character was placed in direct competition with someone who didn’t, no matter how well they played their character.
But I like my guilds, be they small or large. I don’t feel that I have to only be friends with my guild, either. I guild with people I like who have similar goals. I chatgroup with people I like but don’t see as often (be they more casual or more hardcore than I am).
about 4 years ago
Andrew:
“Hank, then there\’e2\’80\’99s no point grouping, since organising those 40 people is a challenge in itself. If grouping is pointless..why is it a MMO?”
Its not a MMO. Its a MMOG. Speak the words, stop using a retarded partial acronym.
Second, its a MMOG because there’s lots of people. Why do you think that its only a MMOG if people are forced into large unweildy groups? If people want to play that way, they can. If people don’t, they shouldn’t have to. If doing hard single player quest X gave me the same loot as doing hard 40 player quest X, only it gives it to all 40 people in the 40 player one, then everyone could play how they want, all be rewarded equally, and life would be good.
But no, instead people have to insist that there is some inherent value in forcing people into large groups. And thus developers make the best loot only available to such groups, to reward them for putting up with being forced into a huge group in the first place. Its retarded.
about 4 years ago
Ideally, an MMO would provide something for everyone to do that would eventually wind up with an equivalent reward for each path. Sadly, nobody does that because it’s Hard.
The thing is, WoW’s raid pve is iffy in it’s difficulty. While BWL is worthy of good lewts, MC really isn’t. They’re bad epics, but still massively better than most blues.
That said, large group coordination is only difficult if the reason they’re all together is phat lewt. If they enjoy being together, keeping a raid moving and being effective is a breeze. The key failures people make trying to form a leet raid guild is picking up people with conflicting personalities, and downtime between kills (boredom breeds lazy and pissy players, feed them mobs and they’ll stay busy).
I’d like to see a game do a decent overall plotline/automated kingdom thing where you could join a “raid” simply by zoning into a battlefield, or go into one that was capped at fewer players, or do small solo stealthy missions.. but until that time comes, I figure solo play should be acceptable, but at the minimum a group isn’t asking all that much. 40 people is asking a lot, but I wouldn’t mind it if the loot wasn’t all that much better, it was simply there for people who wanted to raid for the sake of raiding, not winding up with gear that’s 20-30% more effective than anything else you can get.
about 4 years ago
I play less than 10 hours a week. Usually what amounts to 2 or 3 raids worth or a night of questing, depending on where I can find a spot. I guess that doesn’t fit into the whole persecution complex “the casuals” try and build up when people who play for the same length time are able to do all the things they scream about NOT being able to do. I get to play whatever content I have a hankering for and collect my share of the phat lewts all without devoting 6 hours a night 5 nights a week to a game.
Participating in 20 or 40-person content has no correlation to being a casual or hardc0re player. Some of the people in my guild have been playing since launch and have just started doing ZG runs as newly minted 60′s. They’re lucky to be able to play for more than an hour or two at a stretch. The guild makes the difference for that type of player. They are accepted in our guild and we welcome the limited time they have to adventure with us. Raids of any importance are posted and if they can make it they sign up.
I enjoy the ability to solo while “grinding” out the early game. It’s nice to be able to jump into the game, achieve something meaningful and then jump right back out again. Spending more than 10 minutes LFG is NOT fun – I’m just as likely to log off and go play TrackMania or something else than I am to continue waiting. We’re also talking about MMO’s here, not Knights of the Old Republic. I don’t get why people are surprised or angered that a game with the words “massively multiplayer” in the description is unwilling/unable to provide a better single-player experience than Planescape.
lern2casual, nub?
about 4 years ago
Also… Even if you exclude the managerial issues from wrangling 40 people onto a raid target the fact still remains that no solo (or even 5-man) content can scale in difficulty enough to justify equivalent itemization. I already said as much earlier on – the depth of an expected raid force frees the encounter designers to put in very challenging stuff that they can then reward the player for appropriately. For what it’s worth there are a few hundred epic world-drops that anyone just out killing random_mob_001 can take solo or grouped. It’s just the luck of the draw.
A solo player running a 20-step quest for 6 hours but never killing a mob higher than 56 isn’t deserving of a brand new Sulfuras. Furthermore wouldn’t that be the very epitome of a catass?
WoW isn’t DDO. In the context of what WoW actually is there is simply nothing a single player can do that has an equivalent “difficulty” to what is required to kill Nefarian or Hakkar or Ragnaros or any of the big game. Could WoW be made to use more puzzle/crafty/thinky stuff to reward the solo player? Absolutely – and that would actually BE epic.
about 4 years ago
from D-0ne:
Politics and chaos and PvP effecting the world are ignored in todays MMORPGs and that\’e2\’80\’99s a bad thing. These things would solve a lot of the \’e2\’80\’9cissues\’e2\’80\’9d currently under debate.
They are ignored for a reason. I will never again play a game where I can be randomly killed, corpse-raped, and have all my personal effects (house included) stolen. I am not alone. Sheep is not a viable class. It never will be.
The [good|bad] old days of UO are gone. Get over it.
about 4 years ago
Harder content should NOT necessarily equal better rewards. This whole “raids should give better rewards because they’re hard” argument is silly and bogus.
It’s predicated around the idea that the Game Devs should be some arbiters of fairness, dispensing content and loot as they see fit.
To have a decent game, the Devs have to (As AC1 devs wisely did with Darktide) put themselves more into the *background* of determining winners and losers. Player-created forms of content, such as PvP or social structures, should be the fluid systems through which outcomes such as “better” and “worse” come.
A great chat system, like EVE’s, is essential for this. So, too, is worldwide unrestricted PvP.
From there, you give players *tools*, not restrictions, and let them work their magic.
In games like AC1, your sword was a tool – your selected means by which you whacked whomever or whatever you chose to whack. Everybody’s sword was about as good as everybody else’s, and people coalesced into a relatively small number of player templates such that there wasn’t any big issue of “OMG he has that item/skill and I don’t” during the game’s golden era.
In WoW, your sword is not a tool – it’s a restriction. One sword can be a hell of a lot better than the next, such that your gear is a ‘gatekeeper’ to post-60 content. You do one dungeon to get the gear that effectively lets you into the next dungeon, etcetera.
Also, Lum, you’re critically wrong when it comes to time invested in learning a skill being in any way equivalent to time invested in your character. The former is a fluid process, and one where you literally learn by doing; there is no mandated rate (or direction) to your learning. It’s a player-directed, player-centric process. As a result, it’s something people take to with gusto. I’ve never met anyone who’s felt put off by a fighting game just because other people knew a ton more combos than they did.
Raising your character’s skills via XP earned by foozle-bashing or whatever is not a fluid system. It’s arbitrated by the game developers.
The result is a feeling of relative powerlessness and pointlessness, and one of the major reasons WoW is a terrible game.
It’s the difference between growing wings and learning to fly, and riding a rollercoaster on a track from beginning to end.
Rollercoasters aren’t bad, per se, but I’d rather have the wings.
about 4 years ago
The problem was Sirlin thought if he road the rollercoaster it would give him wings. He got stuck trying to explain why the rollercoaster should have wings to people who like the rollercoaster just fine. Instead, he needs to go play Planetside and EVE where you can at least deceive yourself into thinking you have wings for a little while.
about 4 years ago
Hellfire: “I already said as much earlier on – the depth of an expected raid force frees the encounter designers to put in very challenging stuff that they can then reward the player for appropriately.”
Plus, you mention sulfuras, which isn’t epic, it’s Legendary.
Now, I will argue that Lucifron is as difficult an encounter as the DM king. Both are relative jokes with extremely minor technical aspects. Heck, Mar’li is easily 5x harder than anything pre rag in MC. But that’s the rub: Molten Core is too Easy to deserve epics off anything except Rag and maybe Domo if we’re going by “must be harder than 5 man content”. The fights simply aren’t difficult, half the raid can be afk, and if you really know what you’re doing you don’t even need 30 people for the first half of MC. Yet it drops gear that’s massively better than anything in an equivalent personal difficulty (meaning the amount of effort each player must put forth) encounters in the game.
Heck, Mar’li and Jin’do don’t even always drop epics entirely because they’re only 20 man raid mobs, yet skill wise they require FAR more effort to kill than anything in MC (domo and rag come close). MC guilds were wiping like mad to ZG until they started to wake up and not afk through the fights like they did in MC.
Blackwing Lair? AQ40? Epic worthy if you want to talk skill based fights, and needing to put forth more effort and a larger depth of encounter. But Molten Core alone blows a giant gaping hole in the idea that raiders put any more effort into getting the encounters that drop their tier 1 sets than 5 man players put into DM North and West. Or even ZG players who only get a garunteed epic off of Hakkar, versus the multiple epics off the easy bosses in MC, and random epics (about the same chance as getting a halberd of smiting..) off the TRASH.
I was a raider. I liked Raiding with my guild, they were great people. But implying that clearing MC requires the players to be at the top of their game is blatantly false. You need to pay far more attention to successfully run DM north than you do to clear up to and including Golemagg. But if you run both of those activities for 4 hours (average guild time to clear up to and including golemagg), I wonder which group pulled out 14-20 epics, and which didn’t.
Now, I’d totally agree with you if blues dropped off every MC mob, and Rag dropped a single epic per kill. But as is, they’re handed out like freaking candy for encounters that are not in any way shape or form difficult. And they’re not even minor epics, they’re full on badass compared to anything a 5 man can pull off. At least some of the ZG blues (emphasis on SOME) are as good as a low end epic. But those ZG runners put a heck of a lot more effort into getting that item than the sunday afternoon MC flatten.
about 4 years ago
“The problem was Sirlin thought if he road the rollercoaster it would give him wings. He got stuck trying to explain why the rollercoaster should have wings to people who like the rollercoaster just fine.”
Heh, fair enough.
The problem with this, though?
If there weren’t so many simpletons willing to just ride the rollercoaster, the devs probably would have built us wings by now. The two best ‘wings’ examples, early AC1 Darktide and pre-Trammel UO, are both long gone now. We’re moving in the wrong direction rather consistently, it seems, and the EQ crowd – people who will apparently be happy with any old crap – has led that trend with their dollars.
A lot of us who railed against EQ and its ilk weren’t like Lum – we didn’t Rant Because We Care, like EQ was some flawed but enjoyable game. We saw it as the embodiment of everything wrong with this Diku-ified direction of MMOs, wrong down to the core.
Sure, one might counter “You’re telling people what they should want!”, but libertarian as I am, telling people what they want *works*, whether in politics or in culture, if you’re persistent enough and you can get the necessary volume (opinion-makers) and style (persuasiveness) on your side.
Ranting against WoW, just like EQ, is not to get the game “fixed”. It’s unfixable, rotten to the core. The point is, operating on the logic that human beings are social and persuadable creatures (and there’s a whole mountain of evidence to this effect), to drill in the “No, you don’t *really* like WoW, even if you think you do” message until it finally sticks.
Unless the barriers to entry for MMO-making go down significantly (Despite some interesting efforts like Multiverse, I doubt it), those of us who want non-Diku gameplay (AKA a ‘world’), a minority, aren’t going to be much of a draw for game development dollars. Our options are either sit around bored with nothing to play, play games like WoW that are fundamentally contrary to the nature of our enjoyment, or convince other people that they’re wrong to enjoy what they do.
Option 3 is certainly a longshot, but the opportunity costs are low (everyone loves hearing themselves talk on the internet!) and Options 1 and 2 aren’t any good.
The same is true not only for changing what people play, but changing what people talk about. Anyone who writes about how they wish they could have their WoW with a bit more ‘world’ tossed in needs it beaten into their head repeatedly what it takes to have a real ‘world’ in a MMO (And I use the phrase ‘world’ in the fun sense, not in the Hay Guys Let’s Get Fat and Go To A RenFaire For LARP sense… in other words, not in a way that would exclude casual gamers), and how WoW (and EQ, and DAoC, and EQ2) are fundamentally incompatible with that.
about 4 years ago
So, let me get this straight:
People don’t actually like what they a) say they like, b) pay for, and c) give every evidence of enjoying ? And you reach this conclusion because you don’t like what they like?
Dude. No offense, but do you also think all positions besides missionary should be prosecutable offenses, or are you more of the philosophy that if you TELL people they don’t enjoy the more interesting variations, then eventually they’ll… stop? Or something?
I’m perfectly comfortable believing that some people like WoW, some people like DAOC, and some people like Kama’s Wheel. Mainly because all the evidence available to me on this here internet as well as in my experience would seem to support my thesis. But hey, thanks for tonight’s demonstration of solipsism in action.
about 4 years ago
I would love to get people’s thoughts on the second life concept in comparison to WOW. I can’t get my head around whether SL has a chance (in the l-o-n-g term, not today for sure) of creating something as rich and rewarding and popular as a strict game-driven MMO?
about 4 years ago
“People don\’e2\’80\’99t actually like what they a) say they like, b) pay for, and c) give every evidence of enjoying ? And you reach this conclusion because you don\’e2\’80\’99t like what they like?”
No, you misunderstood. I fully accept that people like what they say they like. I’m just saying that with a concerted effort, you can convince people of pretty much anything – in this case, that they don’t really like WoW/EQ. I’m also arguing that the genre would be better for it.
The alternative would be to say that whatever the most people like is best; i.e., Myst and Deer Hunter. Of course, to go that route is to generally reject the idea that there’s such a thing as ‘high’ and ‘low’ culture.
“Dude. No offense, but do you also think all positions besides missionary should be prosecutable offenses, or are you more of the philosophy that if you TELL people they don\’e2\’80\’99t enjoy the more interesting variations, then eventually they\’e2\’80\’99ll\’e2\’80\’a6 stop? Or something?”
You can convince people of pretty much anything, given enough effort – to use your example, sex can be pretty hard to enjoy if you drill a kid enough with guilt and shame via abstinence-only education and church.
Of course, you’re picking pretty much the world’s most hard-wired response to stimuli around. It’d be a lot easier to convince people to drop EQ than it would be to get them to stop enjoying blowies.
“I\’e2\’80\’99m perfectly comfortable believing that some people like WoW, some people like DAOC, and some people like Kama\’e2\’80\’99s Wheel. Mainly because all the evidence available to me on this here internet as well as in my experience would seem to support my thesis. But hey, thanks for tonight\’e2\’80\’99s demonstration of solipsism in action.”
Oh, of course plenty of people do – you misunderstood my point. WoW is the most popular MMO in existence right now, I’m not disputing that, and it’s because people like it.
That said, from the perspective of someone who likes MMOs, MMO development is more of a zero-sum game than single player games; if the devs are making something that WoW players want, it means they’re not making something you want. The much higher barriers to entry for making MMOs, as opposed to single player games, means that your options of where to play are much more limited, and devs are going to go where the cash is.
Thus, if I want something fun to play, preaching to the players is more likely to reap positive rewards than preaching to devs or just sitting quiet and hoping someone will make the kind of MMO I’m interested in again.
Of course, to be most effective, you’ve usually got to make like the LaRouche kids; go about it indirectly, exploit pre-existing fault lines in the community (casuals vs raiders in WoW, for instance), that sort of thing.
MMOs also have a special frustration to them that single-player games don’t; the games you’d love to play have already been made (for me, pre-Trammel UO, and golden era AC1 Darktide), but were then un-made by time and external forces.
It’s like playing Sonic the Hedgehog, and while you’re still in love with playing it, the game devs fly to your house and take back the cartridge. You’re left with a bitter pill to swallow.
about 4 years ago
I don’t know if they fixed it in the time between when I left and now (approx a year? longer?) but when instead of fixing the problem of people sniping from rooftops where the guards couldn’t get them by either allowing the guards to climb or equipping them with bows, they decided to simply say “don’t go up there anymore or you will get in trouble” I quit and never looked back. That is just pure lazy, and worse, its a horrible way to admin a game. You should never tell your players to quit exploiting a game engine fault, unless in a temporary way until you can fix it, which should be as quickly as possible. Was it annoying getting killed from bastards on rooftop while the guards for the city clustered around the base of the building trying to get at him? yes. But I would rather go through that a thousand times than have the devs simply say “stop it” without actually fixing anything. thats just rediculous.
Additionally, I agree with the original author about the soloing bit, though I am apparently in the minority. I question the truthfulness of anyone who says they soloed all the way to 60. Or rather, I question your memory since you are probably forgetting pickup groups and random raids you were invited to. its possible to get through the game without a guild (though extremely difficult, and becoming more so as time passes) but it is not possible to get through the game solo. It simply cannot be done.
Several of my friends still play WoW, though I have no idea why, and as I understand it currently, if you are not in a guild, you do not expect to go on any large raids… ever. There are no pickup groups, because everyone is in a guild, and their guild has scheduled the dungeon raid for thursday, and non guild members arent invited, and they’re not going without their guild because nobody else is inviting non-guild members to raids either, and the cycle continues.
The biggest problem I have with WoW is that its extremely unforgiving if you don’t want to farm molton core (or whatever it is now) 50 times for the boots your character is required to have or be gimped when compared to characters who HAVE those boots. In the end, you ultimately end up with a character who is identical to the same race/class standing next to you, because you both got the same items, and you both “specced” the same way, and thats just the way it is. The end game of WoW is a battle between cookie cutter-esk players all fighting each other for the title of most generic. There just are not enough item options at higher levels. You pick from one of four “suits” of armor, and that means that one out of every four of your class/race looks just like you. You have several ways to spec your skills, but if you don’t pick the one or two specific ways that are known to be superior to the to the others based on years of testing, then congratulations, you may be different, but now you’re gimped. Good luck in pvp.
I think the idea that WoW is wide open with possibilities is deceptive.
my two cents.
about 4 years ago
J,
You must know by now that I believe the implimentation of PvP in UO was a mess. To much focus on killing each other and the resulting punishemnt for being killed effecting the victim.
No. What I’m trying to communicate is that communities in current MMORPGs lack an effective political structure within the game mechanics that actually effect the gaming environment. DAoC comes close but is still miles away.
The successful assasination of the top guilds leader should effect the guild and the guilds surrounding community far more than the guild leader. If you’re a pawn in the guild the effect of killing you is meaningless to everyone. If you’re the second in command the effect of assasinating you should be real to everone on your side.
about 4 years ago
Quote -
I\’e2\’80\’99m stalking you, too.
But FWIW, I didn\’e2\’80\’99t write the article.
—
Well Raph, You’ll have to excuse us then if you got pinned for this but, It sure as hell reads like something you might have wrote to me. I’ll stand by my view that anytime I’ve seen you talk or read any articles of yours. That in the past few years, especialy, you’ve gone further and further away from what I think the base is, and moved into space that I call madness. Maybe we’re miss-reading into your statements. Perhaps we’re missing something. Something inside of you that helps make sence of all this but, lately what I’ve been hearing is to me, a lot of nonsence.
Hey, I call em how I see em.
about 4 years ago
“Or rather, I question your memory since you are probably forgetting pickup groups and random raids you were invited to. its possible to get through the game without a guild (though extremely difficult, and becoming more so as time passes) but it is not possible to get through the game solo. It simply cannot be done.”
Not only can it be done, it can be done easily and very quickly. I personally have leveled two toons to 60 (hunter and rogue) and never grouped with them at all, ever. On top of that, the only time I ever grouped with my main (paladin) prior to hitting 60 was to run through Zul Farak to finish a bunch of quests. And honestly, it wasn’t worth it. I’d have been better off grinding solo. And right now I’m soloing up my 4th, 5th, and 6th toons (priest, druid, warrior) by alternating so they’re always getting rest XP. I doubt I’ll group with any of them either. Grouping prior to 60 in WoW is a complete and utter waste of time aside from the socializing.
about 4 years ago
Raph Koster makes some of the worst games on the planet. His opinion on the time of day, let alone gaming, has no value.
about 4 years ago
D-one wrote:
How about a system of get enough black marks and you *can\’e2\’80\’99t* do the 40 person raids because too many members of the community think you\’e2\’80\’99re a jerk? Complicated? Not really. Unfair? Not really.
Yeah I hate getting ganked. How about…every time you gank a newbie with any character, none of the characters on your account can enter an instance until they get at least one more day on /played. Then double it for each subsequent infraction. I don’t know if it’s possible to make rules in here that would work since you have situations of newbies attacking and groups of newbies attacking. Maybe if you attack someone who considers you gray, you can be ganked for 10 mins? But it would make people think, and I’ll bet highlevel players could avoid ganking if they tried. It would also stop the stupid “highlevels protecting their friends lowlevel alts” routine that screws up otherwise legit pvp. If it could stop that last situation, it would be worth it.
about 4 years ago
Joe – ah, I see what you’re saying. I did misunderstand.
(Side note – sex is the most hardwired thing, true, but I chose it as the basis for my analogy because the same parts of the brain are stimulated during any intense pleasurable activity. Some of us in our wilder, unfettered days may have accused the uberguilds of whacking the monkey during raids, but the scientific truth is that they didn’t NEED to – because it would have been redundant from a brain chemistry point of view.)
I still think you’re crazy, but in a Don Quixote sort of way as opposed to a dangerous egotistical fascist kind of way
And Joe? FWIW, there are plenty of devs right now growing disenchanted with the dominant idea that if you don’t have 40 million bucks and a whole lot of rats pounding the pellet bar, you’re screwed. I truly believe that the “next big thing” is going to be smaller, niche world games. I don’t think what you want is ever going to attract forty million investment dollars, but someone’s eventually going to pony up two. Are you willing to accept less than stellar graphics and web-based CS, though?
about 4 years ago
Quoting Angry Bob:
\’e2\’80\’9cGrouping prior to 60 in WoW is a complete and utter waste of time aside from the socializing. \’e2\’80\’9c
And maybe, just maybe, that is an integral part to WoW tremendous success.
about 4 years ago
“This is important: rewards for the effort of 1 person isn\’e2\’80\’99t good enough. As long as better exists, that will be the baseline. \’e2\’80\’9cWhy can\’e2\’80\’99t I get the same stuff as the 40 people working together. I\’e2\’80\’99m smart! I should be able to get the same stuff! Or stuff just as good. It had better be just as good, too, or else it may as well not exist.\’e2\’80\’9d”
I’m hoping developers DON’T learn this lesson. I agree it’s probably true for the general gaming population, but I like solo content, and I don’t give a damn if the rewards don’t match the rewards for raid content. If the rewards match, the raiders will be out farming the solo content instead of off somwhere where they’re not in my way.
about 4 years ago
Sanya said: “And Joe? FWIW, there are plenty of devs right now growing disenchanted with the dominant idea that if you don\’e2\’80\’99t have 40 million bucks and a whole lot of rats pounding the pellet bar, you\’e2\’80\’99re screwed. I truly believe that the \’e2\’80\’9cnext big thing\’e2\’80\’9d is going to be smaller, niche world games.”
/nods
Garage Games’ Marble Blast Ultra is a great example of what Indie developers can do on a small budget in the console space, a traditionally difficult space for indies to break into at all. There’s no reason it can’t work for MMOs.
WRT the main topic, I think it’s interesting that people (including myself) keep coming up with ways that WoW sucks, and yet whatever-million-they’re-up-to-now people don’t seem to agree. Blizzard must be doing something right, even if it doesn’t jive with our own concepts of good game design.
Amber
about 4 years ago
This strikes to the heart of why he\’e2\’80\’99s right on this one point at least, and all the major MMOs are wrong.
I haven\’e2\’80\’99t settled on one family, and I\’e2\’80\’99ll bet you haven\’e2\’80\’99t either. I\’e2\’80\’99ve got the family I was born into, the friends I made in my backwoods Connecticut hometown as a child, the friends I made in college, the friends I made in college, the friends I made in my new home in Silicon Valley, the people I work with, and numerous other \’e2\’80\’9cfamilies\’e2\’80\’9d. These groups overlap. I spend more time hanging out with my coworkers and SV friends than I do with my birth family\’e2\’80\’a6and yet, I go home to be with that family most every Christmas. I feel no less close to them despite that fact.
…
I started playing WoW with various real life friends. We founded a guild so we could hang out and chat together. Over time, however, half of those people have left the guild for others. Some wanted to raid, some wanted more roleplaying, and so on. It wasn\’e2\’80\’99t that they wanted to stop associating with the rest of us\’e2\’80\ldblquote just that the game mechanics forced them to make a choice.
Wait.. so you can’t play with those friends ever again because they’re in another guild? You can’t type, say, /join DamienClub in game and keep in touch with them? You can’t shoot them whispers in game to see how they’re doing or if they want to join up with you?
What you’re saying, from my perspective, seems to be akin to the following:
Me and my buddies used to enjoy playing soccer together, but it was an informal thing. Then some of my buddies really got into sports, and they signed up for soccer teams. Now I can’t talk to them ever, or do anything with them, because they don’t like to play in the county soccer league any longer.
Huh?
My family in my game is my guild. But I have friends aside from that. I even have friends (and some “family”) from my last game’s guild who I still keep in touch with despite the fact that they don’t play WoW, period. The implied thought that the only way you can maintain the bonds you have in game is if you’re always doing the same thing at the same time is absurd. If you translated that dynamic into real life, the behavior would be egregiously unhealthy. I’m sure there’s a psychiatric term for it. In a cross-gender relationship it sounds like codependence.
A guild is a way to organize people who have the most things in common. If your friends leave to go to a raiding guild and you stay behind because you’re not into that, then within the context of the game, you don’t have as much in common with your friends as the raiding guild does. This says nothinga bout your friendship and whether or not you can still regard these guys as your “family” though.
about 4 years ago
Aufero as it has been alluded to in other posts solo content doesn’t mean easy content. Raid content does not mean hard content.
Thats the false belief that developers push on the players and as Joe has gone in depth to talk about it is something that is relatively easy to make people believe en masse.
The raid content of WoW could be debated all day whether it’s rewards are worth the challenge. Same could be said about 5 man dungeons. Same could be said about solo content.
It’s driven into MMOGers heads that raid = harder = better loot. When in fact the difficulty of the content is exactly in the developers hands. Developers just cop out knowing that increasing group size artificially increases the difficulty for the average player. Organizing people is hard unless you all know each other and have played togehter for years.
Its a sad and common occurence in the Diku based MMOG.
And on a final note. Hellfire you may play 10 hours a week now, but your catass logged thousands of hours to get to that point… unless you have a very forgiving guild that lets you afk through raids and still roll on loot. If that is the case you are in the 0.01% of WoW raiders that plays 10 hours a week and still gets the same chance on rolls as everyone else.
If I was in that 0.01% I would say the same exact thing you do… oh come on it isn’t that hard… look at me I play 10 hours a week and I am purple from head to toe.
about 4 years ago
I will say it once more: \’e2\’80\’9cHow many wildly succesful MMORPGs will it takes before developper consider soloing a valid playstyle ?\’e2\’80\’9d. The solo-friendliness is no stranger to it\’e2\’80\’99s mass appeal success.
Do you at least see a little bit of the irony in making semi-petulant demands that Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games really ought to do a better job of entertaining players who want to play by themselves and minimize multiplayer interactions?
about 4 years ago
“Do you at least see a little bit of the irony in making semi-petulant demands that Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games really ought to do a better job of entertaining players who want to play by themselves and minimize multiplayer interactions?”
No. Massively multiplayer means there’s lots of other people, that you CAN interact with, AS YOU SEE FIT. It does not have to mean that you are forced to interact with those people in ways you don’t like, all the time. The real world is massively multiplayer too, but I don’t have to spend a half hour trying to find a group before I can go to the mall.
about 4 years ago
mouselock says:
>Wait.. so you can\’e2\’80\’99t play with those friends ever again because
>they\’e2\’80\’99re in another guild? You can\’e2\’80\’99t type, say, /join DamienClub
>in game and keep in touch with them? You can\’e2\’80\’99t shoot them
>whispers in game to see how they\’e2\’80\’99re doing or if they want to
>join up with you?
Of course I can, and do. You miss the point.
WoW, like other games of its ilk, has a concept of a “guild”. This is a concept that’s supported by the game mechanics–guilds get a private chat channel, you can easily see who is online in a guild, guild affiliations are visible, and so forth. You can only be in one guild.
You can mimic many of these concepts without using the game-supported guild interface: You can create a chat channel, add all the people in it to your friends list, and so forth.
However, consider this scenario: You’re a member of a guild–an actual guild, supported by the game UI. This guild is casual, though, and you want to get into raiding. A raid guild approaches you and offers you a position. The game UI now forces you to choose which guild you want to be in.
Yes, you can create a MyFriends channel and invite all your old guildmates to it. (Oops, you can only be in ten channels at once–tough luck if too many of your friends do this.) What you can’t replace, however, is the association with the guild as a whole: The new members that join after you leave, the people you never got to know all that well, and so on.
And so when people quit a guild, they drift apart from it. They retain ties to specific friends, but they don’t retain a tie to the community of the guild.
And, as I said, this is entirely unlike the way people form communities in real life. For example…
Gwaendar says:
> He\’e2\’80\’99s married. Chances are high that he meant the
> family you might found some day instead of the one
> you\’e2\’80\’99re born into. And yes, that\’e2\’80\’99s actually, at least to
> me, more tight-knit than my much wider circle of friends.
He’s married, and he has a job. If life worked the way most MMOGs do, he’d have had to /gquit his marriage to get a job–after all, his wife and kids just aren’t enough people to field a decent raid group. You need to hook up with an uber guild like if you want to raid the retail market.
This is the complaint that David Sirlin had: Restricting membership to one guild prioritizes one community that you belong to over the others. It makes certain communities mutually exclusive. And it generally prioritizes the WRONG community–your “business associations” rather than your “family”.
about 4 years ago
Quoting mouselock:
“Do you at least see a little bit of the irony in making semi-petulant demands that Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games really ought to do a better job of entertaining players who want to play by themselves and minimize multiplayer interactions?”
I find it ironic that after so many years of people soloing in MMORPGs, even when it’s usually the least rewarded path, you and so many others still have the guts to tell us: You should not enjoy this game, go play a single player game…
Do any of your non-MMORPGs hobby require you to group with 40 semi-unknown peoples ?
about 4 years ago
Well Raph, You\’e2\’80\’99ll have to excuse us then if you got pinned for this but, It sure as hell reads like something you might have wrote to me. I\’e2\’80\’99ll stand by my view that anytime I\’e2\’80\’99ve seen you talk or read any articles of yours. That in the past few years, especialy, you\’e2\’80\’99ve gone further and further away from what I think the base is, and moved into space that I call madness. Maybe we\’e2\’80\’99re miss-reading into your statements. Perhaps we\’e2\’80\’99re missing something. Something inside of you that helps make sence of all this but, lately what I\’e2\’80\’99ve been hearing is to me, a lot of nonsence.
Hey, I call em how I see em.
That’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion. Blaming me because it sounds like something you think I could have written, that’s just careless reading though.
I’d love to discuss the aspects of my madness with whoever. Self-knowledge like that can only bring me closer to union with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It’s probably not apropos for this comment thread, however.
about 4 years ago
“And Joe? FWIW, there are plenty of devs right now growing disenchanted with the dominant idea that if you don\’e2\’80\’99t have 40 million bucks and a whole lot of rats pounding the pellet bar, you\’e2\’80\’99re screwed. I truly believe that the \’e2\’80\’9cnext big thing\’e2\’80\’9d is going to be smaller, niche world games. I don\’e2\’80\’99t think what you want is ever going to attract forty million investment dollars, but someone\’e2\’80\’99s eventually going to pony up two. Are you willing to accept less than stellar graphics and web-based CS, though? “
Heh, I’d gladly take those tradeoffs. Hell, AC1 and UO were both huge duds in the graphics department (Though AC1 did have interesting art direction to compensate for the outdated technical specs).
I just have a hard time seeing those niche worlds coming to pass – particularly in terms of unrestricted PvP.
Good, unrestricted PvP requires a lot of things to go right:
-A large world, enough that you can spread out and hide out in the boonies from the bigger fish in the sea if you want to.
-Some sort of physics/twitch involvement so that player skill is a major determinant. For instance, in AC1, if an arrow or spell is shot at you, and you physically step out of the way, it misses. No dice roll or anything like that. This became a major issue to me when I was trying out DAoC’s all-PvP server; there just wasn’t enough twitch involved.
-A lack of grind to be PVP-competitive. AC1 had, back in the day, a complex system of unintended “features” and exploits that, while not intended by the devs, essentially meant that you gained XP rapidly based on your membership in a guild and the territory your guild controlled.
-A way to hurt other players. This works better if it involves taking their stuff as opposed to taking their XP.
-A world that’s big, but not *too* big relative to the size of players. This becomes a problem as game subscription numbers change; AC1 has nearly doubled in size since its release (dungeons and world locations included), yet its population is between 1/5th and 1/10th of what it once was. The balance of world size to population is no longer there.
So, yeah – I’d love it if smaller indie games could pull off a good ‘world-y’ MMO, but I’m not sure it’s in the cards, at least for another few years.
Frankly, the only semi-decent hope I see right now is a WoW unlimited-PvP server (no factions) with a heavily modified ruleset.
Why WoW hasn’t tried one of those already is beyond me.
But again, that’s settling for a lot lower than what once existed – so it’s bound to be a bitter pill. When I hear some of the awful noise that passes for ‘rap’ music today on the radio, I can pop in a Tribe Called Quest CD and return to the good old days. Not so when you depend on people for the fun.
about 4 years ago
“Aufero as it has been alluded to in other posts solo content doesn\’e2\’80\’99t mean easy content. Raid content does not mean hard content.”
Not the point. If there’s solo content with similar rewards to raid content, it will be perceived as easier, and there will be ten times as many people getting in my way trying to do it. (And if it’s actually difficult, all of them will whine until it’s made easier. After all, solo content is supposed to be easy!) The “raiding is more difficult than soloing or grouping” meme is firmly implanted in the average MMOG gamer’s brain by this time, you couldn’t remove it with Drano.
about 4 years ago
Grinless said:
“Do any of your non-MMORPGs hobby require you to group with 40 semi-unknown peoples ?”
Well, it’s not MY hobby, but I hear that sitting in a park and saying “LFG for football!” doesn’t work all that well, but it can work. Plenty of people play in pickup sports that can involve large numbers of people. But many form semi-permanent groups (we’ll call them teams) and set up alliances (let’s call them leagues)…and then you have drama over folks not showing up for a scheduled raid/match and all the rest.
Many sporting events are like this.
Then you have community development of software, for example. It can be much the same way.
That being said, my hobby horse here is more love for duoing people. In WoW, it’s almost always a bad idea to duo. But, you know, girlfriend. So I do it. Ah, to be back in Camelot, where my Enchanter’s pet would tank with focus shield up while her Healer kept it alive until it was time for me to step up and PBAE it a couple of times to kill it.
Wow. That topic drifted. But anyway, plenty of people engage in hobbies that require other people who you don’t know at first. The main limitation on them is that you’ll only have so many people into X in a given area, so eventually you get to know some percentage of your local community.
about 4 years ago
As much as I tried to resist, I had to break into this topic.
http://www.virginworlds.com/index.php?/archives/80-Mr.-Sirlin-Sheeps-You.html
about 4 years ago
Wow, that’s one hell of a thread.
Something nobody really seems to have focused on: it’s all about effort vs. reward — what rewards are “deserved” for which types of effort: hours played, twitch skill, encyclopedic knowledge of the game, whatever. Something to consider, though: what rewards do the players of AC2 have now? Where are their Swords of Uberness?
If your primary goal in a game is to get some virtual widget as a reward, some shiny pixels and different numbers on the screen from the ones you had before, you’re doomed to eternal disappointment. No matter what the game is, no matter how it’s structured, if you’re working (doing non-fun things) for rewards, instead of playing (doing fun things) to enjoy the experience, you’re going to have a problem with that game. There will always be someone with more uber lewtz, or someone who got them without as much work as you did, or something that makes you feel like you didn’t “win” after all. And even if you have the uberest lewtz out there, some day they’ll turn the servers off and you’ll have nothing, nothing at all.
The game designers are missing out on this, too. They’re missing out on putting a fun experience into the game, as opposed to work that you do to earn your lewtz as pay, and they’re not steering the players towards enjoying that experience instead of working their asses off for something that is, in terms of long-term value (next week, next month, after you quit the game) essentially meaningless. When you come right down to it, what are your favorite memories of games you don’t play anymore? If you’re like most people, they aren’t of your spec, or your gear, or how many quests you completed. They’re memories of things like the first time you saw somewhere really cool (the waterfall in that cave in DAoC/SI comes to mind), or crazy things that happened along the way (that’s why Leeroy Jenkins resonates with so many of us). I remember a time in DAoC when my guild got mad lucky, ninja’d a Relic from a successful raiding group, and ran like all Hell was after us to get that thing home — and in guild chat, of course, it was all “omg, this can’t be happening!” It was, it did, we were the heroes of the day. That rocked. The Relic got taken back a few days later, of course … none of it meant anything in the long term, we didn’t get so much as a notch in our swords, let alone any uber rewards. The real reward was the fun of doing it. That reward, I still have. I’ll always have it — that memory — unless it gets replaced with better ones as the years go on.
Another crystal moment, when I was in the bridge room in Spindelhalla and saw some poor bastard who had somehow managed to pull every single mob from the gunstling spawn downstairs, running (futilely) for his life, with this whole circus parade of mobs chasing him, and one very determined mad kobold bringing up the rear. I quit DAoC long ago, but I can still see that scene in my mind’s eye. Another: a line from one of my guildies, an aracoix (avian race) in Shadowbane, when we planted the seed for our Tree of Life: “Now I can build a nest!” I couldn’t name you one item I had in SB, and I was rich. The server I played on doesn’t exist anymore. But that moment of humor (I suspect it’s not as funny to anyone who wasn’t there), that one throwaway line, has stayed with me. The fun of doing things with friends has always outweighed whatever reward the game handed me after I was finished doing it.
People, both designers and players, have gotten so focused on the rewards that they’ve forgotten that this isn’t a job, it’s a game. It’s supposed to be something fun to do, not something unpleasant to do in the hopes that the fun will come later. Would you play, say, GTA3 if it was boring as hell, but you got to see a pretty decent cut scene every few days? Nobody would, or at least not enough people to make a profit off of. So why play a MMOG that way? Why build one that channels people into that mindset, when it’s a pretty much guaranteed disappointment for them?
This crops up everywhere — in PvE, in PvP, in raid/casual conflicts, in class balance issues, in everything, in every game that I’ve played. Very few people, on any side, seem to recognize the real problem for what it is. War has been described as hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. All too often, MMOGs are hours of boredom punctuated by moments of enjoyment. And that, right there, is the unrecognized force that drives players on their endless migration from game to game: the yearning for something they can’t put a name on, but they know they want. Maybe the next game will have it, or the game after that. But as long as games are focused on the labor/pay mindset in stead of the play/fun mindset, it’s not gonna happen.
Why is our first MMOG, whatever it was, always remembered most fondly? Because when we started, we were doing near things, exploring a whole new type of play, and it was play. We were having fun all the time. Everything we did was fun, just like a kid’s first day at a McJob is fun, because it was new and different and exciting. But, most of the time, it was fun only because it was new — not because it was an inherently fun activity itself. We did it for fun, not in anticipation of later fun. But once we learned the system, once the novelty wore off, the non-fun of the grind became readily and painfully apparent. We switched from having fun to anticipating fun. And we’re still looking for that fun, still drifting from game to game, still trying to find what we can’t put a name on, but we’ll know when we see it: a game that is fun to play, not a game that is fun to have played.
I can thank WoW, oddly enough, for giving me a little of that back. Due to RL schedule issues, I can’t join a raiding guild. I’m married and I run a small business; there’s no room in my life for a second job. Therefore, a large part of the game’s content (and specifically the content that the devs lavish the most time, effort, and care on) is off-limits to me. So, I’ve been finding ways to have fun doing things, rather than anticipating fun that I might someday have when I get the phat lewtz of my dreams. My level 27 mage now has every Alliance flight path. (I died a lot getting the Felwood one) My 60 Horde warrior is rich. My AH mule is a well-known /1 personality, a wiseass with no tolerance for idiots but a heart of gold. That’s why I’m still playing the game when most of my guild quit, and the few remaining joined raiding guilds and chafe under the load of meeting both RL and guild obligations: I’ve found things that are fun to do, not things that are fun to have done.
It isn’t about solo content vs. raid content. It isn’t about low-level content vs. endgame content. It isn’t about casual content vs. hardcore content. It’s about processes, about mechanisms, about having fun while you’re playing, not earning rewards while you’re working.
That’s why I’m still playing Civilization after, what is it, 12 years, and chess after [mumble] decades — and why I’m not playing any MMOG that I was playing two years ago.
about 4 years ago
Wanderer said:
“It isn\’e2\’80\’99t about solo content vs. raid content. It isn\’e2\’80\’99t about low-level content vs. endgame content. It isn\’e2\’80\’99t about casual content vs. hardcore content. It\’e2\’80\’99s about processes, about mechanisms, about having fun while you\’e2\’80\’99re playing, not earning rewards while you\’e2\’80\’99re working.”
Amen brother! When I started playing UO ten years ago (yep beta) it was for fun and it was great fun. The more recent games where leveling is important and lewt is VERY important do cause most of us to de-focus on the fun. However, it’s up to the players. We CAN have fun in WoW, or we can grind.
about 4 years ago
I actually agree with Ralph and not you for a change. Whil soloing is feasable to level 40, after that, if you are at all competetive gamer you have no choice but to group. After level 40 alternative to grouping is to grind, after level 60 there are no alternatives to grouping.
about 4 years ago
“\’e2\’80\’9cAufero as it has been alluded to in other posts solo content doesn\’e2\’80\’99t mean easy content. Raid content does not mean hard content.\’e2\’80\’9d
Not the point. If there\’e2\’80\’99s solo content with similar rewards to raid content, it will be perceived as easier, and there will be ten times as many people getting in my way trying to do it.”
Why should a MMO have raids at all, then?
I’ve never seriously played a MMO that had raids (the only bosses in AC1 that required more than a single fellowship were legendary, earth-shaking-event bosses that were non-permanent) and I don’t see what the big deal about them is, or why they were invented in the first place.
Why doesn’t WoW just make everything focused around 1 or 2 groups at the most?
about 4 years ago
Because the raid game does sustain a LARGE percentage of the bored level 60s. Theres at least 20 major raid guilds per side on a large server. Thats… a lot of players.
Most of the people complaining about lack of content are non-casual non-raiders. These are people that are impossible to please anyway, at least impossible to please indefinitely. True casual players are not level 60 yet, and if they are, they haven’t finished farming out the non raid level 60 content.
Again, the people complaining are people who are already level 60 and who’ve already completed 5 dungeons worth of 5 man content (usually by zerging it with 10, and wondering why theres no challenging 5 man content.) They want more of the same, but its just not possible for Blizzard to put out more of the same at the pace these players play because they are not casual players, they’re just non raiders. Raiders will accept a new dungeon every 4 months because it takes 2-3 months to learn each dungeon. Its not possible to make 5 man content that takes 2-3 months to learn, well it is but if you did it, those players would complain it was too hard.
about 4 years ago
Joe, you’re describing Eve’s PvP. Whatever else they get wrong (and it’s a lot), PvP is right. That and there are things to do to suit pretty much any playstyle except absolute carebear.
about 4 years ago
I ended up writing my own rant about what these games teach.
http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/02/24/what-are-the-lessons-of-mmorpgs-today/
about 4 years ago
Funny and sad. But it pretty much sums up not just MMOs, but popular culture in general.
MMOs meet fast food culture.
This is what happens when you build worlds where everyone gets to be the hero. And if everyone DOESN’T get to be a hero, its seen as a failure.
about 4 years ago
Interesting.
I can see why people put words in Raph’s mouth so often. His own words can be interpreted in a number of different ways.
about 4 years ago
Honestly? I think that Raph, like myself and many others, would be happier playing a game more like EVE. 80 man pvp gangs and massive political/resource wars are far more interesting than MC for me, but meh, to each his own.
about 4 years ago
Contrary to popular opinion-
There are many different types of people in the world and all of them have a different definition of ‘play’ and ‘fun’.
If he doesn’t find WOW to be fun, then yeah I think he should try eve or city of heroes. Bitching about how WOW has not completely satisfied his every desire will get him no where. And if he wants to talk about what it teaches us…
It’s just a game.
It is something I do to releave stress after work. It is either this or Dr Phil.
about 4 years ago
“I\’e2\’80\’99ve never seriously played a MMO that had raids (the only bosses in AC1 that required more than a single fellowship were legendary, earth-shaking-event bosses that were non-permanent) and I don\’e2\’80\’99t see what the big deal about them is, or why they were invented in the first place.”
Raids weren’t technically created by the devs but were an emergient gameplay style.
In EQ the gods and dragons were impossible to kill by a single group of players with the best – non-dragon/planes – gear available to them but the players could damage the mobs so they knew they should be killable. They tried a variety of tactics early on but the simpilest is to just throw people at it, the Zerg rush from StarCraft.
You then get a cycle of ever larger guilds demanding more content that they can experience as a guild so more raid level content being added, and these games being gear centric, the rewards for these larger and larger encounters have to keep getting better and better.
The games in development get an ear full from these huge guilds demanding that there be content that their entire guild can experience or they won’t play your game and so they start out with raids and the cycle continues.
about 4 years ago
Andrew, I agree with you – Eve is great.
Only thing is, I’m not much for ship-flying. Eve is great if you like flying ships.
I’ve never been much of a space gamer, at least not as my ‘primary’ form of ‘game’. I’m much more about land. Puzzle Pirates has a unique PvP system, but I had trouble getting into it for the same reasons.
Fun note: You could re-skin Puzzle Pirates with a Star Trek theme and have it set in space, and it’d actually be the first-ever Star Trek MMO. It’d work well.
“Most of the people complaining about lack of content are non-casual non-raiders. These are people that are impossible to please anyway, at least impossible to please indefinitely.”
We’re not impossible to please. We just want an actual GAME, not a Skinner Box.
Like AC1 Darktide was. Like pre-Trammel UO was.
Like EVE is, or Puzzle Pirates for that matter.
More games please, less flashy.
about 4 years ago
The other thing about raids is that they do foster social bonds: You can only progress if you raid. You can only raid if you join a big guild. If you join a big guild, you’ve got more people to talk to, more chances to make friends, more occasions when a guildmate says something funny and memorable.
It sucks for the people who can’t or won’t join a raid guild, but I think that the evidence to date shows that a raid game leads to player retention.
about 4 years ago
“Raph Koster is a nutcase. Plain and simple.”
I might not have agreed. But then I listened to some of his music…
about 4 years ago
AC1 Darktide and UO were a bunch of dicks running around circle jerking each other. There was no game there, just people throwing dirt in each other’s face.
Puzzle Pirates is a game.
EVE is just more prison politics. Definately not mass marketable. Most people do not want to be in prison.
about 4 years ago
…I think that the evidence to date shows that a raid game leads to player retention.
I know it’s believed to, but are there any actual statistics on that? My empirical evidence to the contrary is that I have two separate sets of experiences in MMOGs: One, playing a small game which lacks guilds as such, and which has players who have been around for, in some cases, 8+ years. Second, the guild I am a member of outside that game, which migrates from game to game looking for something better. (sadly, it fell apart when we got to WoW)
The guild thing is a two-edged sword: Yes, guild members will stay in your game when they really don’t like it anymore because their guild is there … but they will also leave your game even if they still want to play because their guild is moving on to the Next Big Thing. I don’t think it increases the player retention, just the granularity of player movement: they all stay, or all leave at the same time.
And then there’s the opposite problem: the marginalization of people who are not members of the big raiding guilds. I’m sitting on a rock in Orgrimmar as I type this, hoping futilely that some pickup group will be recruiting for an instance run. The odds are, if I do find one, that the run’s gonna suck. Pickup groups consist mostly of rejects from the major guilds with a few offshore farmers sprinkled in to make matters more interesting in a twisted sort of way. My RL schedule precludes joining a raiding guild — I can’t commit to being on at raid times. (one of the drawbacks of being married to a non-gamer) Since WoW has become increasingly focused on raids, that means that I am not only missing out on the raid content, but also on the social aspect of the game that focuses on those raids. I think in the long run it’s a bad trade-off: retaining the people who are most likely to pick up and leave en masse, and losing everyone else.
Diversification of your playerbase is like diversification of your stock portfolio: it protects you against one single event wiping out a large part of the value.
(note: I am no longer LFG, as parts of my server are slowly disappearing. First the eastern continent went, then the NPCs and the mailbox, and now players are slowly fading out. There’s a rant in there somewhere ….)
about 4 years ago
Stara, what do you mean?
That you need to be one of the great elite, the alliances to deal in the “really fun” bits of the game? Bah, humbug. About 1/3 of the players are in an Alliance, and corperations like my Jerico Fraction show that yuo can be a single group of friends, disrespect every “border” players put out there and have great fun in Eve.
Joe, yes, there is that. I am a space fanatic, so I love Eve. It’s certainly not for everyone. I’d love a broader space opera MMO. (I’m not really a fan of most current fantasy-based MMO’s, although I did play UO many moons ago)
about 4 years ago
“AC1 Darktide and UO were a bunch of dicks running around circle jerking each other. “
But the dicks still want, and are willing to pay for, a game.
about 4 years ago
In response to hellfire
My problem with the pve raid loot is not the means by which it is rewarded (pve) that its used in pvp which on a pvp server doesnt make alot of sense.
Each content patch introduces more and more ways to one shot in pvp – mages busting trinkets and ap to 1 or 2 shot anything they encounter, people with such high resists your lucky if you can ever get a full effect spell on them to stick. PvP rewards have been falling more and more behind each publish. The differences between the rank 8 AH itemized char and the purple itemized char is growing appart to the point now where they are almost twice as powerful.
On a pvp server I would like to either see high end pvp reward not useable in the battlegrounds or a serious boost in the power of pvp rewards. Purpled itemization from zerging pve content should not make for pvp domination – right now it does and thats where the problem is.
- A
about 4 years ago
“AC1 Darktide and UO were a bunch of dicks running around circle jerking each other. There was no game there, just people throwing dirt in each other\’e2\’80\’99s face.”
WTF? I’m sorry, but myself and many people I knew in RL had SO MUCH FUN in these games that it was unimaginable. When we were done playing, we’d have big grins on our faces. We weren’t dicks – I’m actually a really nice person, I was in the running for best smile in yearbook awards way, way back in the day!
AC1 retained each of us for four or five years. That’s a *long time*. We required almost no content additions at all – in fact, it was usually PvE content additions that broke our server and led us to dread patch updates. We wanted things to stay the same for as long as possible.
From a developer’s perspective, we were a dream come true – like Counterstrike customers who would pay a monthly fee without ever demanding new guns or maps. We made our own stories.
We can have fun without Dev Daddy holding our hand and building us new content every step of the way – can you say the same for your playstyle?
The “throwing dirt in one another’s faces” that we did was in a GAME. You can’t be really be hurtful to someone in any meaningful way in a game environment – you turn off the computer screen, and it goes away.
Maybe that’s why we didn’t have IG marriages or any of that silly stuff? Because we were better at drawing the line between game and reality than other people?
Talk about being “jerks” – you know who the real jerks tend to unfailingly be? Catass PvE-ers. I’ve met people from Darktide who ABSOLUTELY LOATHED ME INGAME in real life, and you know what? It was completely cool! We’d laugh, we’d joke, we’d become friends – because PvP bullshit is simply that, PvP bullshit. It doesn’t intrude on real life, it’s just for giggles.
Remind me which player gathering had a REAL LIFE FIGHT BREAK OUT BETWEEN UBER-GUILDS?
Oh wait, that’s right – EverQuest, land of the PvE-ers!
I’m sorry if I’m sounding a bit standoffish, but when you just randomly assume PvPers are jerks, when, if anything, I’d bet we’re *better* socialized in real life, when all the evidence suggests the opposite, and when I’ve been doing you the courtesy of not making such broad assumptions about your folk – that’s just plain unnecessary.
To sum up:
-Our retention rates are high.
-Our only major demand is “have PvP reasonably balanced”. Recent games like WoW and EQ2 are well set up for doing this independently of PvE balance.
-Our demand for more content is “please don’t break the content that we make for ourselves”.
There’s quite a few of us. EVE, Shadowbane, AC1 Darktide, DAoC Mordred, old UO-ers, and probably plenty of others who would pop over and give our playstyle a shot if *their game* opened up a server that allowed it. Of the servers listed above, only EVE is vibrant. The rest have declined due to external issues with the games themselves, not due to the viability of the worldwide full-PvP model.
Why are more dev teams not willing to take a chance on this, and give it a shot as an alternate-rules server?
Why isn’t EQ2 doing just one, *one* factionless server? I’ve never bought a SOE product in my life, and I would start EQ2 in a heartbeat if they did that!
SWG? Galactic Civil War, anyone?
Sigh.
Sometimes I feel like I’m just yelling into the void, and MMO dev houses will never listen. But I can’t imagine that I’m the only one that would play these sort of things.
about 4 years ago
> Sometimes I feel like I\’e2\’80\’99m just yelling into the void, and MMO dev houses
> will never listen.
Or maybe we just disagree that full unrestricted PVP is the Nirvana of MMOs. It’s a VERY acquired taste, specifically because most people tend to be assholes. Your fondly remembered AC1 Darktide memories, for example, don’t mention the common welcoming of new users – constant and repeated slaughtering, where they had no chance to fight back. The only way to start an AC1 Darktide character was, upon character creation, to run very fast and hope no one finds you.
For some reason, many folks don’t find logging into an episode of The Running Man attractive. Thus why developers try to find ways to leverage the political PvP endgame without allowing players to be such raving lunatics that they kill anyone stupid enough to try to play.
about 4 years ago
ahh yes I remember early darktide, I tried playing twice only to be chased and killed by some dickhead level 20. I decided to leave when I was seriously going to break the CoC by cursing him out.
If someone wanted to give it a shot and make a free-for all unrestricted pvp server or game they could, but not everyone is going to drop everything and jump on it. Some people I know would love it but there are just as many who would never find that kind of game enjoyable.
I actually enjoy raiding and hanging out with my guildmates. The times we do raids are for me, fun. Some poeple may not enjoy that but I enjoy the social aspect of being able to do raids and have a lively guild chat. Sure there are a lot of assholes, but Im not going to insist that I solo the entire world to avoid them. Trust me, they will find you no matter what.
about 4 years ago
PvPer comment – AC1 Darktide was terrible, because ganking newbs was and always will be lame.
about 4 years ago
Dear Joe PvPer from AC1:
While I agree with what you have to say, I don’t think Lumthemad’s blog is really the place where you can expect many positive responses. Of course, this is another way of saying that lumthemad’s blog has attracted many posters with poor taste in MMOGs.
about 4 years ago
I do not understand why this is such a difficult concept.
There is an ultimate MMO for you.
There is an ultimate MMO for the other guy.
They are probably not the same game.
There maybe be more or less of you then the other guys.
$15 is still $15.
Any leetness infered from an online game has a very limited scope of usefulness.
about 4 years ago
Damien Neil said
> You can only be in one guild.
Per character.
> However, consider this scenario: You\’e2\’80\’99re a member of a guild\’e2\’80\ldblquote an actual guild, supported by the game UI. This guild is casual, though, and you want to get into raiding. A raid guild approaches you and offers you a position. The game UI now forces you to choose which guild you want to be in.
Correct, but there are still ways to make stuff work. I’m currently part of a raid guild, which was formed after the first players reaching level 60 in two separate guilds had to find a way to get access to even 10 and 15-man raids. These members from both guilds found that they got along well enough, and indeed, a single guild is the most practical method to get stuff done as a group. So the officers of both guilds pulled together and decide to create a new, third one for players of the other two guilds reaching level 50+ to have their organizational tool, and restricted access to mains and one alt.
The two initial guilds still exist, hold our other alts, serve as a growing ground to organize content for players level 1-49, and provide us with a steady influx of endgame players who still share similar affinities, because both initial guilds have kept up with recruiting. And if one player needs a hand with something, there are always players out of not one but three different guild available to help.
> This is the complaint that David Sirlin had: Restricting membership to one guild prioritizes one community that you belong to over the others. It makes certain communities mutually exclusive. And it generally prioritizes the WRONG community\’e2\’80\ldblquote your \’e2\’80\’9cbusiness associations\’e2\’80\’9d rather than your \’e2\’80\’9cfamily\’e2\’80\’9d.
See above on how we did it, it only required a bit of creativity and goodwill between family members.
And David Sirlin’s complaint may sound valid on paper, but in practice it is mooted by habits. FFXI gives access to an unrestricted amount of guilds, at the expense of one bag slot and the additional technical limitation that you only have access to one single guild channel at any given time. The latter certainly participates to it, but whatever the reasons you have to get that linkpearl to a different guild, you’ll eventually settle for one and visit the others less and less.
about 4 years ago
Question:
What’s wrong with killing newbies?
Why is a fight more fun when both players have a semi-equal shot, and either one can fight back hard?
That’s essentially CounterStrike. If that was what I wanted, why not play CounterStrike? Hell, they have a Warcraft Mod for CS that allows you to level up over time (and save your levels on the server when you log out) and get powers in a variety of classes. It’s relatively balanced (If you pick a server running one of the more polished versions) and adds a serious element of persistence.
What makes PvP fun isn’t Counter-Strikey pitched battles. It’s the idea that you, by dint of whatever, can set upon the other guy when he has no chance to fight back; and someday, he might be able to do the same to you, or to other newbies.
Kathy… you felt like swearing at the guy who killed you. Over what happened in a *computer game*? When he wasn’t cheating, or hacking, or anything like that?
I’m sorry, but if you feel that much negative emotion upon getting killed in a MMO, no matter the circumstances, there’s just something *wrong* with you. Maybe not majorly wrong, but by the time it’s gone that far, the MMO should be the *least* of your worries. Would you swear at your kids if they beat you at Risk or Monopoly? Or does the anonymity of the internet provide you a cloak for such antisocial behavior?
And no, there’s nothing antisocial or ‘weird’ about killing newbies for no reason. It’s the PvP equivalent of a friendly welcome – like fraternity hazing, in a way! The bullets don’t run away from you in CounterStrike just because you’re new to the game. You jump in and go with the flow, not with the baggage of preconceived expectations about how you should and shouldn’t die.
Ironically, now that I think about it, the PvPers I know tend to be disproportionately involved with fraternities and things of that nature. Also, a lot of business school kids. We’re a naturally sociable bunch.
Whereas, I hate to say it, but on some of the LtM diaspora sites, I’ve been shocked at how many PvE-ers have worked tech support / customer service at some point in their life… From my experience in RL with such people, they are probably one of the more antisocial professional sets around.
Furthermore, on Scott’s point – how is what you’re saying an argument against opening an alternate-rules server to that effect? Mythic opened one and it worked fine, until factors external to the server (Changes in the game overall) have caused its decline.
about 4 years ago
I don’t consider myself an expert in such things, but the issue with killing newbies is that often enough when the first thing they experience is death once they’ve finished whatever character creation or tutorial, followed by the serveral next things they encounter being death by level 30′s or so camping the character creation land, it tends to dissuade them continuing to pay for the server, or even pay for the game.
Ultima Online. Shadowbane. EVE. All of these games from release (and before Rennaisance in UO’s case) had areas intended for the just-made character to be safe from pking, outside of tricks (tab/dbl-click for free gold) or outright bugs. The two games we think of today when it comes to PvP even have areas where it’s safe to PvE for truly newbie characters.
Although I think that killing newbs is lame and killing people zoning in before their screen even loads is lame, I like worlds in which I can encounter all sorts of players-the player-killers, the craftsfolk, monster-killers, treasurehunters, fishermen and pirates. The more barriers to entry you place, a lot less of all these different folks I run into until most of what’s left is a KoC/Blood Gear-fest. Color me uninterested in playing in THERE.
****
As for Sirlin, keep in mind the background this guy is coming from. Console/Arcade, maybe competitive games for the PC like Counterstrike. Someone with that playstyle is going to be far more critical of Time prioritized over Skill. I know Koster has pointed out before that not EVERYBODY is good at Counterstrike, but more people have played that game than ever have played Ultima Online or Star Wars Galaxies. I’d throw down money that more have played that mod of Half Life than the sum of everybody who played the major games he had a hand in designing. And then there’s the folks that play Madden, and other sport games serious or casual farther back than Tecmo Bowl. Then there’s the beat-em-ups that consumed quarters in the arcades and L-notes at the likes of Gamestop and Toys R Us. Oh, and I won’t forget Magic: the Gathering.
There’s a lot of folks out there that like to play competitively even though they might suck at a game. As for folks that do decently, it’s not hard for me to imagine that they want more to a game than one which demands less skill from the individual the larger the group they’re in. WoW is definately not the game for this guy-there’s times I question it’s the game for me, because he voices some of the complaints retold on PvP servers for the past year.
about 4 years ago
“I don\’e2\’80\’99t consider myself an expert in such things, but the issue with killing newbies is that often enough when the first thing they experience is death once they\’e2\’80\’99ve finished whatever character creation or tutorial, followed by the serveral next things they encounter being death by level 30\’e2\’80\’99s or so camping the character creation land, it tends to dissuade them continuing to pay for the server, or even pay for the game.”
Well, death is a constant no matter what level you are; thanks to the handy /death counter ingame, I can tell you that during my first year of playing, my character died 1,500 times. That number was not remarkable or exceptional. On occasion, when DT’ers gather to compare /death counts like crusty pirates comparing peg-legs and eye patches, there are multiple folks who have passed the 5,000 mark.
Death, if done properly, isn’t a strong impediment to playing the game; for instance, in AC1, when you die you go non-PK for five minutes. I think this alleviates the issue you’re talking about – one death per five minutes (give or take) is still plenty of time to do whatever you want to. Not to mention that it encourages you to run multiple characters at once (in case one gets camped or in case you want to sneak up on the camper by an alternate route), a positive trait worth ‘teaching’ early.
As far as protection for the ‘true newbies’, by providing an area only they can enter, I don’t see the gigantic problem in that. AC1 does that from level 1-5 (Though the newbies often PK one another in there).
So long as there are still quite a few close-to-fully-new newbies that can’t hold their own in a fight yet, but are still vulnerable.
about 4 years ago
Yes, because we all know that people who aren’t immediately in front of us aren’t real and we can thus be total raving psycho lunatics with no fear of consequence.
The disconnect you exhibit here is precisely why full-PvP games will never be acceptable to the mainstream of players and why designers of other games are forced to code restrictive countermeasures to counter such casual sociopathy.
about 4 years ago
“Sociopathy” implies that online games are societies. They’re not. Sometimes societies coalesce around them, as with your former message boards and blog, but in and of themselves the world of Norrath or Dereth or Azeroth, populated with a server full of people, does not create any sort of society. No society, no societal ‘laws’, no sociopathy.
The whole point of a MMO is to have an avatar separate from oneself – where actions done, and done by you, are not “you”, per se.
Otherwise, why camp for the loot? Why not just go to work and make some money or play a sport in real life?
Anything that could be done in a “virtual society” would have a parallel activity in the real world. Why not ‘advance’ or ‘socialize’ or ‘explore’ or ‘compete’ (to paraphrase Bartle) in the real world, then?
What’s the point of a virtual system, if not to free us from the bonds of being in a society?
Why distance ourselves from our own humanity via a computer interface, if we’re just going to keep on acting human?
about 4 years ago
The problem with ganking newbies in a MMOG is this:
First of all, it’s not the equivalent of beating someone in Monopoly. It’s the equivalent of beating someone in Monopoly when they start out with only $5 and they’re limited to moving one space per turn. Take the fellow who was sticking daggers in my WoW warrior’s kidneys this afternoon: he could walk up to a level 1, or a level 10, or a level 20 character and the first that character would know he was there was when said rogue one-shotted him. It’s a game the newbie can’t win. Ever.
Nor is it the equivalent of repeatedly fragging novices in a FPS. I suck at FPS games, my aging reflexes can’t handle it, but I enjoy playing them once in a while just the same. Every time I die, I learn something about how to play better: You can get ambushed if you go that way. Look up, he might be on that wall. Don’t get trapped in dead-end corridors. Strafe! Strafe! What I learn makes me a better player, harder to kill next time. The only difference between any two (non-cheating, of course) players is skill, and one way you get that skill is from finding out all the many ways to get fragged, and how to frag unto others as others have fragged unto you. That learning increases a player’s capabilities in the game. In a MMOG, however, you don’t get better by dying. You get better by levelling, which you can’t do while you’re dead.
What makes PvP fun isn\’e2\’80\’99t Counter-Strikey pitched battles. It\’e2\’80\’99s the idea that you, by dint of whatever, can set upon the other guy when he has no chance to fight back; and someday, he might be able to do the same to you, or to other newbies.
Griefing may be what makes the game fun to you — but other people’s mileage may vary. In general, people don’t find being killed when they have no chance to fight back to be a whole lot of fun. What you see as fun (kind of like pulling the legs off helpless insects) they see as you preventing them from playing the game they bought and paid for. And no, getting continuously ganked is not what they bought it for — go look at the box for any game, you’re not going to see “die over and over and over again and try futilely to get to level 2″ anywhere on it.
I\’e2\’80\’99m sorry, but if you feel that much negative emotion upon getting killed in a MMO, no matter the circumstances, there\’e2\’80\’99s just something *wrong* with you. Maybe not majorly wrong, but by the time it\’e2\’80\’99s gone that far, the MMO should be the *least* of your worries.
I beg to differ. Someone who is the victim of a griefer like you has every right to feel negative emotions. They bought a game to play it, and another player, one whose biggest advantage is that he started playing the game before they did, is preventing them from doing so. Getting pissed that someone won’t let you play the game you just bought is perfectly natural. On the other hand, getting your “fun” out of preventing other players from having a good time, and picking on those too weak to be able to fight back … now that’s a sign of some serious issues that you really ought to get some help for.
Would you swear at your kids if they beat you at Risk or Monopoly?
If her kids beat her at Risk or Monopoly, she’d no doubt congratulate them. It’s an accomplishment for a child to beat an adult, someone who has the advantages of more experience and more practice, at a game. That is, in fact, exactly the opposite situation from what you enjoy — you’d be the one beating the little kids at games and then laughing at them and making them cry.
Or does the anonymity of the internet provide you a cloak for such antisocial behavior?
Look in a mirror, troll. You’re bragging about preventing other people from playing games. You’re mocking someone for being angry that she was prevented from playing a game by people like you. You’re trying to attack her in an out-of-game sense, suggesting that she is mentally ill because she’s angry about being deprived of the game she’s paying for. You are a griefer, and in my humble opinion you need professional help. Most of the people I disagree with here I think are misguided, misinformed, or wrong. Not you — you’re evil. And I do not mean that in any good way.
about 4 years ago
P.S.
\’e2\’80\’9cSociopathy\’e2\’80\’9d implies that online games are societies.
Playing games is an action that is undertaken by members of existing societies. That’s where the greifer’s argument of “it’s just a game” falls apart. It’s just a game, yes, and chess is just a game, but that doesn’t justify you walking into a tournament and dumping chessboards on the floor. The society in question isn’t inside the game, it’s outside — it’s the one you live in every day of your life. And that society has certain expectations of behavior of its members, like “you don’t wreck other people’s games just to get your jollies” whether those games are chess tournaments or MMOGs.
Sociopathy (now wrapped into ‘antisocial personality disorder’) is defined as lacking understanding of the feelings of others, especially empathy for others’ suffering. Even with what little I know of you from your comments on this blog, you certainly exhibit the aggressiveness and especially the lack of remorse that the DSM-IV lists as characteristic of the disorder. You are indifferent to the effects of your behavior, you rationalize the wrong you do as someone else’s fault, or something the victim deserved, and I suspect you might show a few more of the diagnostic characteristics as well. The biggie, though, is being unable to understand or empathize with other people’s feelings, and you have demonstrated that repeatedly in this discussion.
Sociopathy is not violation of laws, although sociopaths do violate laws because of who and what they are. Sociopathy is being an insensitive griefer, someone whose personal pleasure trumps someone else’s pain, someone with no sense that the rest of the world is anything other than bad special effects — and that, my friend, is you. Or at least the person you have presented yourself as.
The whole point of a MMO is to have an avatar separate from oneself – where actions done, and done by you, are not \’e2\’80\’9cyou\’e2\’80\’9d, per se.>/i>
But the actions you do are done by you, per se. If you crash the game server, that’s you. If you hack the game, that’s you. And if you make it impossible for another person to play the game, or enjoy the game, by other means — such as griefing — that, too, is you.
What\’e2\’80\’99s the point of a virtual system, if not to free us from the bonds of being in a society?
Why distance ourselves from our own humanity via a computer interface, if we\’e2\’80\’99re just going to keep on acting human?
I don’t think I can even begin to answer this. It would be easier to explain color to a blind man than civilization to a sociopath.
about 4 years ago
>What\’e2\’80\’99s wrong with killing newbies?
Lack of challenge, lack of risk. If you wanted to play such a game, you might just as well toss a ball in the air and bet whether gravity will affect it – it will. Such a game might be fun for someone with with a serious mental disability but anyone with a reading age of above 5 would pass it by.
If there were not some other consequence, that is. In this case, there is. That consequence is to upset other people. If you get off on that, i suspect the Law or possibly the Prison Service is for you.
>Why is a fight more fun when both players have a semi-equal shot, and >either one can fight back hard?
If you really don’t understand that, i won’t even begin to try to explain it. Keep on licking the windows of the short bus, Joe.
about 4 years ago
The days of unrestricted murder and mayhem are over. Games such as DAOC and WoW have demonstrated that pvp can be done with some basic safeguards and rules and its actually fun. I play MMOs to pvp – its the endgame reward for me. PvP in MMOS has evolved from the days of UO and darktide. There are more important challenges to address – like some of the things the original poster points out (item balance, time spent vs. skill). Another is what impact it has on the game world (DAOC Relics – prime example).
I agree with everything joe had to say except asking for alternative rule servers. If you put all the game systems of an MMO together and were serving a meal – pvpers are not the dog under the table getting handed scraps such as alternative rules servers. Should we have alternative servers where you can form guilds, or collect items, or do quests? absolutely not. PvP should be a complete system within the context of the entire game, it has its place to happen (zones), it has its effect on the game (rewards, penalties), it interacts with the other playstyles (examples such as unlocking pve content through pvp(not individually but as a team) and most importantly encourages participation not discourages.
Like Joe I too am wishing more dev houses would take this approach. I am pleased with the success of wow with almost half their servers being pvp rules and no wow server is truly -pvp in that you cannot do it at all. I think that should light up the eyes of some execs.
- A
about 4 years ago
The critical difference between PvP and other game elements such as collecting items or doing quests is that PvP, specifically the unrestricted newbie-ganking that you and Joe get off on, has the potential to deny other paying customers the ability to play the game at all. The whole idea of one group (often a minority) of players being able to control the gameplay experience of other players naturally makes game developers nervous, to say the least.
Shadowbane is an excellent example. I had it easy — I was in the first wave of players, I had a good guild and we were allied with our server’s uber-guild, so I levelled up in relative safety and got driven out of the game by the broken software, broken economy, broken CS, and generally broken game instead. But it was unplayable for the people who came later. I talked to people who never made another level, in two weeks of trying, after they left Newbie Island. People like you and Joe camped the safeholds and slaughtered any new players trying to seek somewhere to level. They were naked because all of their gear broke and their money was looted, they were frustrated because the game, to them, was an endless sequence of death, death, and death, and they had no alternatives. The guilds didn’t recruit anyone below about 40 at least. No handful of level 20 newbies stood a chance against geared-up 60′s. A friend of mine (healer/channeler) took out a full group, or close to it, farming at ants. Solo. If every newbie on the server had gathered together, a single group of rank-5′s could have taken them out. So, of course, after weeks of getting ganked and nothing but frustration to show for their money, those players quit paying. The result? Shadowbane has 4 servers now, down from 12 at launch. The game is on life support.
It comes back to the difference between a MMORPG and a FPS: In an FPS, it’s not necessary to win fights to get better. You keep on losing, you learn from every fight, and eventually you start to win. In Shadowbane, though, or any game of its kind (including early WoW) it is necessary to win in order to get better. I don’t care how l33t you think you are, if you take a level 20 character, any class, any gear, and you duel my 60 warrior, it doesn’t matter that neither my skills nor my gear are anything outstanding. You are going to die. And you are going to die every single time. If your ability to improve — that is, to level — was dependant on you being able to beat me, you would stay level 20 until you quit the game in frustration, and took your subscription fees with you.
I am a PvPer, not a griefer like you and Joe. I don’t gank newbies. Why? Partly ethical reasons — I’m from another generation, one where being mean and a bully was considered detestable, not admirable. But, also, it goes against the whole reason I PvP in the first place. I want to prove I’m better. I want to beat someone who should be able to win, but they lose because I’m better than they are, not someone who never had a chance to begin with. Ganking newbies doesn’t do my e-peen any more good than what I’m doing right now — farming low-level mobs for some tradeskill mats I need.
I notice you two don’t talk about your great adventures mowing down scads of level 20 spiders. You’d laugh at someone who posted here and talked about the wonders of farming crap mobs. What’s the difference between killing these spiders and killing the newbies that I wave at and go about my business? A human being on the other side of the computer who is upset that they can’t play the game because of you.
I have never felt marginalized because I play on a PvP server. The fact that you want to deny other players the option of playing on a carebear server if they choose shows me that you’re not a PvPer looking for opponents, you’re a griefer looking for victims. Your fun comes from ruining other people’s fun.
The fact that people like you exist, devoting your efforts to wrecking the product (called ‘fun’) that the game companies are selling, is what makes them so leery of releasing PvP games. So it’s thanks to little Internet sociopaths like you that the rest of us, the real PvPers, people who understand the concepts of ‘game’, ‘sportsmanship’, etc., can’t get a decent open PvP game.
about 4 years ago
“The critical difference between PvP and other game elements such as collecting items or doing quests is that PvP, specifically the unrestricted newbie-ganking that you and Joe get off on, has the potential to deny other paying customers the ability to play the game at all.”
Maybe It’s just because I’m a really high Socializer/Explorer, but I don’t see how getting killed repeatedly prevents you from playing the game.
Playing games is about the fun from the means, not “ends”. Nobody (at least, nobody smart) is just playing to get the next Uberfoozle Sword of Whack’em +1. They’re playing for the fun of the getting there.
As a result, the two most important things in being able to play the game are your ability to run around and your ability to talk.
Does getting killed keep you from running around? No. It may move you back to wherever your bindstone is, but once you hit the bindstone you can just keep on running. It sure doesn’t keep you from talking.
If anything, I’d say that a PvE mez keeps you from playing the game far more than getting ganked repeatedly would.
If you’d reply with “Well, what’s the point of running if you can’t get where you’re running *to*?”, then congratulations – you just missed the entire point of MMOs. If you’re playing for where you’re running too, and not playing for the run itself, then you’re not playing a game at all – you’re just hitting the button on the skinner box to get your pellet.
It’s the same thing with loot. Let’s say someone kills me and loots my stuff. Does that prevent me from running? No. Does that prevent me from talking? No. So how is it preventing me from playing the game? Sure, I might need my sword to whack some monster, but is whacking the monster really the point?
The chat system in any well-designed MMO (and by well-designed, I mean “doesn’t have raids that give uber loot”) is the greatest measure of your power and ability to impact the world, not your level or your loot. So long as you can keep on talking (to act upon the world), and keep on running (to experience the world – otherwise, why not just connect to the world’s chat server in IRC) I don’t see how you’ve been held back in any meaningful way.
“I notice you two don\’e2\’80\’99t talk about your great adventures mowing down scads of level 20 spiders. You\’e2\’80\’99d laugh at someone who posted here and talked about the wonders of farming crap mobs. What\’e2\’80\’99s the difference between killing these spiders and killing the newbies that I wave at and go about my business?”
If the spiders had the same AI as human newbies, and could interact with me via the chat system in the same way human newbies do, it’d be equivalent.
The point isn’t “we like killing newbies because there’s a human being behind them”. I like killing newbies (or anyone else ingame for that matter) because they approximate a far better AI, not just in combat terms but also in political and social terms, than a computer can yet do.
When we get level 20 spider mobs that can pass the turing test and can ‘write their own stories’ in a way as compelling as what current PvP servers can put out, PvP would be quite obsolete. Especially if you could flip a variable on the server and have the spider mobs stop using l33tspeak.
The point of playing with other humans isn’t to treat them as humans – it’s to replicate a much more sophisticated AI than any game in the near future will be able to produce.
about 4 years ago
I’m Killer/Explorer or Killer/Achiever, depending on how long I’ve been playing my current game of choice. (I shift from Explorer to Achiever over time)
You don’t see how getting killed repeatedly prevents someone from playing the game? Maybe not playing your game — which, from your mention of voice chat, I suspect involves you getting off on them begging you not to keep killing them — but it prevents a lot of other people, those whose goal in the game is something other than being the punching bag of someone with a very small weiner — from playing their game. This is what I meant in my points about sociopaths lacking understanding of and empathy for others’ feelings or points of view.
I love PvP for exactly the reason you claim to: the intelligence. Once you learn how to kill a mob, you can kill it every time. It’s just a matter of bringing the right group and using the standard tactics. Humans are more fun because humans think, they react, they’re trying to beat me just as hard as I’m trying to beat them. They’re unpredictable. They’re smart. They’re all the things an AI isn’t. I know I’m gonna win against an AI, but I don’t know I’m gonna win against a human, and that’s where the fun is. My fun comes from knowing that I beat someone who could have beaten me, except that I was better than he was: smarter, faster, cleverer, whatever.
That’s exactly what you don’t get ganking newbies. What’s the point of killing someone who has no chance to win? There’s no challenge to it. There’s no uncertainty. There’s no need to be good, to push yourself to be better than you were, to think and react and win. There’s no feeling of accomplishment. It’s no different than slaughtering those spiders.
Except for one thing: The spiders don’t cry.
That’s what griefers (and you have put yourself firmly in that class by now) enjoy: the crying, as they call it. The feeling of power they get when they know they’ve ruined a game for someone else. The knowledge that JoeNewblet was trying to level, or to mine, or just to run to the next town, and they, in their mighty max-level ultra-gear power, wasted that player’s time, frustrated him, made the game less fun for him. Griefers get off on sitting there behind their keyboards imagining the disappointment, the rage, the unahppiness of someone who is trying to have fun and is being repeatedly frustrated.
It’s not the challenge; if you wanted a challenge, you would be a PvPer, not a griefer. It’s not the social aspect; normal adults do not get off on making little kids (or other adults, for that matter) cry.
Playing games is about the fun from the means, not ends. Nobody (at least, nobody smart) is just playing to get the next Uberfoozle Sword of Whack\’e2\’80\’99em +1. They\’e2\’80\’99re playing for the fun of the getting there.
Actually, a lot of people play to get the next Uberfoozle Sword of Whack’em +1. That’s why there are so many games that dispense an endless supply of UFSoW +1, UFSoW +2, etc. Smart people play golf, too. I don’t pretend to understand why; to me, it’s just a good walk ruined. But people have fun with it, even if it’s not my kind of fun. Different people find their entertainment in different ways. To you the world is inside your head; you are unable to comprehend that other people might have different but equally valid beliefs, values, and goals than you do, including the desire to have fun in their own ways instead of facilitating your fun. To you there are only two ways: your way and the wrong way. Some people who think like that blow up buildings, but most just spend their lives in ever-increasing frustration and impotent rage against a world that stubbornly refuses to conform to the way they believe it should work.
But even that isn’t the point. There is no “fun of getting there” if you can’t ever get there. People like you — like the ones in Shadowbane — kept other players from having the opportunity to get there, wherever their chosen “there” was, or in fact to get anywhere.
It\’e2\’80\’99s the same thing with loot. Let\’e2\’80\’99s say someone kills me and loots my stuff. Does that prevent me from running? No. Does that prevent me from talking? No. So how is it preventing me from playing the game? Sure, I might need my sword to whack some monster, but is whacking the monster really the point?
Maybe whacking the monster — or getting out of Khar Th’Sekht alive — is not your goal in the game, but it’s the goal of a lot of other people. So is levelling, acquiring better gear, becoming wealthy, and a whole lot of other things. Maybe you don’t think that being stuck at level 1 (or 20, or whatever) and stark naked is holding you back in any meaningful way, but I’d bet you dollars to donuts that you level up your characters and buy them good gear. Why? Shouldn’t you just stay level 1 and sit there in town and talk to people?
As a result, the two most important things in being able to play the game are your ability to run around and your ability to talk.
Does getting killed keep you from running around? No. It may move you back to wherever your bindstone is, but once you hit the bindstone you can just keep on running. It sure doesn\’e2\’80\’99t keep you from talking.
Getting killed does prevent you from moving around. Well, at least other than the Tree in Khar and a ponit a hundred yards outside of it where the gank squads waited. (no, I wasn’t one of them, though I did go kill them on occasion) It prevents you from exploring. It prevents you from achieving. It prevents you from killing. About the only thing it doesn’t prevent you from doing is socializing, and as a KEAS/KAES player, I don’t really give a flying whistle about socializing, at least not unless I’m in a position of power/respect/influence of some sort, which is rarely the case for a naked newbie who can’t even walk out of town without dying.
If you\’e2\’80\’99d reply with “Well, what\’e2\’80\’99s the point of running if you can\’e2\’80\’99t get where you\’e2\’80\’99re running *to*?”, then congratulations – you just missed the entire point of MMOs. If you\’e2\’80\’99re playing for where you\’e2\’80\’99re running too, and not playing for the run itself, then you\’e2\’80\’99re not playing a game at all – you\’e2\’80\’99re just hitting the button on the skinner box to get your pellet.
Sorry, there is no fun whatsoever in repeatedly running from the gates of Khar to that point a hundred yards outside the gates where the killing zone begins. Nor is there any fun in trying over and over to get past the point where you were ganked only to be killed an equal number of times by some griefer camping your corpse. Even if we were to accept your premise that the only valid goal in a MMOG is to travel around and look at the scenery, your playstyle (which, interestingly enough, involves whacking many monsters, achieving high levels, and acquiring uber gear) prevents other players from doing even that much.
Incidentally, you’re contradicting your own statements. You say that levelling, acquiring gear, etc., is unimportant, but you do so yourself, most likely to maximum levels. You say that you like fighting other players for the challenge, yet you prefer to kill those who present no challenge. You say that others should enjoy simply running, without actually getting anywhere, yet you don’t go running around; you prevent other people from running around. You, sir, are a hypocrite of the first water.
You’re more than a hypocrite. Aggressive, yep, got that. Lack of empathy for others, uh-huh, bigtime. Lack of conscience or remorse, yup yah. Rationalizes actions and/or blames others, presenting front and center. Either you are a very immature individual who doesn’t comprehend that the people you interact with in a game are, in fact, people, or you are as
about 4 years ago
“ctually, a lot of people play to get the next Uberfoozle Sword of Whack\’e2\’80\’99em +1. That\’e2\’80\’99s why there are so many games that dispense an endless supply of UFSoW +1, UFSoW +2, etc. Smart people play golf, too. I don\’e2\’80\’99t pretend to understand why; to me, it\’e2\’80\’99s just a good walk ruined. But people have fun with it, even if it\’e2\’80\’99s not my kind of fun.”
This is precisely the problem with what you wrote – you’re an ultimate relativist, one who says “Well, if it’s what you like, go ahead.” Down that road lies Myst and Deer Hunter.
That’s the nice part about a PvP server; you don’t have to abide by any ultimate relativism. You can inform someone what you think of their playstyle by killing them.
If someone’s whole reason for being ingame is to get their next Uber Sword, that’s silly. By all rights, my killing them ingame, even if they have no chance of fighting back, *shouldn’t* make them unhappy if they were playing *properly*. If they were playing improperly – whose trouble is that, theirs or mine? Fortunately, the PvP switch gives me the tools to guide them in the proper direction.
Maybe the fact that you’re a Bartle Achiever explains part of it; I’m 0% achiever according to bartle, with 1/3rd split evenly between the other three categories. I focus on achieving things in real life; why, for the love of all that is holy, would I then want to log into a game and be expected to start achieving things again? If the desire to achieve ingame is siphoning off one’s drive and willpower from the real world, that can’t be healthy.
Why is playing for the “achievements” improper, you might ask? Because it’s not really a game. It’s a pellet machine, pushing for greater status and rank in a world that Does. Not. Actually. Exist.
The desire to use a skinner box is a pathology. PvP gives me an option to wean people from that pathology.
I don’t PvP for the challenge.
I don’t PvP to make some kid cry.
I PvP to educate people, and shape them through the better – to make them see that if dying in a videogame makes them cry, it’s due to an imperfection on their part. Self-knowledge is essential for self-improvement, after all, and by ganking them repeatedly in their futile quest to go hunt or whatever, I provide them the opportunity to for that reflection on one’s motives.
I don’t indulge their flawed pathologies, whereas a PvE system does.
‘Skinner box’ players are often addicts, in the very literal sense of the word. It’s every bit as possible to become addicted to computers as it is to drugs (such as sugar), and a desire to achieve in a DikuMUD-esque system is a prime indicator of addiction.
You don’t appease an addict. You force them to accept that they have a problem.
And hey, while you’re doing that philanthropy, you can take their stuff, too.
about 4 years ago
Your views on other players and their motivations are all well and good (if extremely sophomoric in the worst Ayn Rand way).
Your seeking to have tools to interfere with the way they play the game they paid for is not, and actually actively harms those who seek an actual PvP game experience, as opposed to a rape simulator.
“It’s not a rape simulator! It’s not real, so it doesn’t count, and I disagree with her choosing to be a virgin, so I fixed it.”
And with that I think this topic has been trolled enough (by someone who has bragged about being a professional troll on other boards) so I will take the last word.